I found this video on the alternately entertaining and infuriating Blue Pill subreddit, devoted to mocking Red Pill horribleness. In it, a perfectly nice young woman relates a comically terrible date with a dude who’s obviously been reading too many Red Pill/PUA websites.
Ironically, she went out with him because he sent her a note about Taylor Swift. I’m sure he thought it was a super-clever neg. Unaware that she was dealing with a massive shithead, she thought that he, like her, actually liked Taylor Swift. I guess that’s what she gets for not assuming that all guys are shitheads?
If you’re not into watching videos, a Blue Piller gives a detailed rundown of the woman’s story here.
The unfurtunate woman should probably send her douchebag date a link to the video below; I suspect he’d be horrified that some mean person had sullied his precious Nine Inch Nails (because you just know he’s a fan) by mashing up one of their songs with the terrible Taylor.
Oh, and while I’m at it, here’s an amazingly catchy NIN/Carly Rae Jepsen mashup, which I have to say is a massive improvement on the highly overrated NIN original. (Sorry, Dean Esmay, but it had to be said.) I’ve literally listened to it four times while writing/formatting this post.
@ Nequam: “Hurt” isn’t one of my favourite tracks on the album, but it does work better as part of the whole, which is actually quite interesting from an engineering and sound design PoV. I’m reminded of one of Nash the Slash’s “tricks” (RIP, Jeff) with soundtracks, which is to repeat musical themes.
“That date was shitty, but I also winced when she said women have to stop supporting that behavior, as if to blame other women for this guy’s behavior. That dude is a douchebag, but it’s not a woman’s fault.”
The reason it works when it does is because they ask every woman they’re even mildly attracted to. It’s a numbers game. Eventually, they find someone who for whatever reason decides to get involved with this person (e.g., she really likes tall guys, she thinks he’s trying to get into her pants and will stop if they have sex, she’s out to have no strings attached sex, whatever). The women don’t normally realize that the men actually believe that women *respond* to abuse. Also, for the men, it’s a combination of confirmation bias and praise from other men that motivates. The women are irrelevant. Usually, before they try this system they haven’t tried anything at all, that is, they’re too scared to even ask a woman out. I have to say it also made me cringe that she talked about the women as though it were their fault. I think we need to stop asking this question. Why do women etc.? It’s like asking why someone goes back to an abusive relationship or why they live with their pimp. We need to put the focus on the men. PUA is a long con some women fall for, the end. It’s unreasonable to expect women to always know that men are spending weeks or months and thousands of dollars learning to be mean in exactly this deceptive way and that they won’t actually stop being mean ever. I mean the whole thing is kind of preposterous.
ObjectiveReality “’I’m wondering if bad advice from other dudes is more of a risk for this stuff than positive feedback in terms of dating success”.
Yep you got it. From the male group point of view (group think) it is better for the male to follow the group rules of behaviour towards females and fail, than to break them and succeed.
If they break those rules then the group will not be happy with them (“yeh sure you got sex, but you acted like a real pussy towards her, pussywhipped, pussywhipped” sort of thing). If they follow them (and fail) then the group will pat them on the back and then everyone joint whinges about what b**tches women are.
‘Pecking order’ competition and jealousy are significant factors in this behaviour too.
If the group opinion leader is a real misogynist, then it can get very ugly. You can even get a self reinforcing mindset, treat female badly …dating fail…the answer: “You didn’t treat her badly enough”…and so on. Congitive dissonance at large, doubling up on failure
And males lie about sex all the time. In every way. About how often, who with, how they got it, what they did and so on. You get a bunch of young guys together and the tales get larger and larger, especially as the alcohol gets consumed. Any relationship to reality disappears real soon.
Add alcohol (and/or some drugs) to the mix then you can see groups of guys (even some individual ones) out and about that everyone wants to stay well clear off. They can be on a very light trigger for violence (towards both females and other non group males, especially if they don’t appear ‘manly’) and rape. The amount of fights I have seen started just because one male wanted to impress his other male ‘mates’.
GLBTI people know all about those ‘homosocial’ groups and how they can behave. For some of them beating up a ‘poof’ is a right of passage into ‘maleness’ and group acceptence. Transgender ‘panic’ has killed a lot of Tgirls. Lesbians have been raped to ‘make them into real women’….and so on. Fortunately that is at the rarer and extreme end of the behaviour spectrum, but is still far too common.
A heck of a lot of males (but fortunately not all by any means) are funny in groups. For some of them there is a real desire to lose their personal identity within them, to take on this group identity and opinions, plus (though they hate to admit it) synchophancy can be a factor, especially if there is a strong leader of the group. If the group ‘norms’ are positive or neutral, then there is no real harm. But if the group is negative then it can get very ugly indeed.
So many guys, when they want to know what women want, ask other MEN — who, in many cases know either less or whose advice is totally toxic. (I catch a whiff of toxic advice from the guy in the OP — He’s doing things he’s been TOLD will make women want to sleep with him, and he’s shocked when she runs away as fast as possible.
The male group peer pressure is very effective — for all the pose of manly independence, many men are terrified of what other guys will say if they show any weakness or “effeminacy”. This self-reinforcing crap is very destructive. The manosphere pushes the idea that any kindness shown to a woman in or out of bed is “beta” — that women should be trained to expect nothing and get nothing from a relationship with a man. It really is puzzling that any man buys this, but obviously there are plenty that do.
From the title I thought this would be a post about some Red Pill Douchebag announcing some sort of contest where the “winner” gets a date with him. HAHA!!
It’s also worth adding that PUA types actively discourage men from asking women for advice on romance and seduction. They say, “You don’t ask a fish about what makes good bait.” In their minds, women are actively trying to avoid being lured into a relationship or into sex, so you have to trick them into it. That also explains why they can’t tell the difference between getting laid in spite of their personalities rather than because of them. They don’t realize that women have sex with them just because those women happen to find them physically attractive enough to ignore their asshole behavior for the duration of a fling.
Second prize: two dates with him.
Asking a woman about what makes a man attractive is beta (because you’re putting a woman in a position of authority over you). Alphas are supposed to tell a woman what she wants, the same way they take charge and order off the menu for her at a restaurant. Who cares if it’s even in the same galaxy as what she actually wants?
There is also the thing that, if you ask a dozen different women what they’re looking for, you’ll get a dozen very different answers, some of which will be “not men”. That puts the lie to the fantasy that there’s a single set of seduction tricks that will have all women everywhere eating out of your hand.
Lisa-
Yup. I remember this well back when I thought I was a boy and the “other guys” would try to teach me how to be “less of a f*g”. The spinning tall tales of conquest that were supposed to matter (I’m so thankful I was asexual, as I feel it was the best defense ever against this type of toxic culture”) all surrounding just horrible mistreatment of women (the more this fantasy woman was abused and looked down upon for having the foolish notion of agreeing to a fictional sex act with the douchebag very rapidly became the entire point for them. And lots of assholes who seemed to never be sleeping with anyone but always talking about porn and violent sexual stories about women ranting at anyone in a relationship for being pussywhipped.
And yeah, that phenomenon of winning “the wrong way” really seemed to be powerful for those caught up in the fantasy. I remember my ex’s ex who was having a lot of sex because he was good about consent and put his partners’ pleasure first who nonetheless worried the magical sex fairy was going to dry up and his masculinity was constantly under question because he wasn’t getting women by being “manly” and instead by actually treating women like people.
Toxic masculinity is not just a turn of phrase. This shit is poisonous to healthy behavior among men and the mythologies spread and the violence and hate thrown at men who dare deviate from this hateful path is intense. And it’s hard to fully communicate just how vile it was to see from the inside as someone as emotionally removed from it (due to how I was born) as physically possible.
It’s that “Unsolicited promise” from Gavin de Becker’s The Gift of Fear. If someone is promising you things that you didn’t ask them to—i.e. “I promise I’ll leave you alone after this”, “I promise I won’t hurt you”, etc.—it’s a manipulation tactic. Much of the time, it does mean that the person intends to keep pushing your boundaries, and probably will break those unsolicited promises.
Dudes. If your philosophy of dating literally hinges on predation, you’re doing it wrong.
I thought Johnny Cash was singing in his cover of “Hurt” about the loss of his wife June Carter Cash. It’s a heartbreaking music video, a perfect finale for a Byronic country and western singer.
RE: friday jones
I LOVE Cash’s ‘Hurt,’ never really cared for the NIN one. Cash just brings this sort of lugubrious dignity to it that I really think only an older singer could pull off. He sounds so TIRED in it.
RE: toxic masculinity
I have such a weird ambivalence about masculinity, because I’ve always felt it was some sort of gated community I could never get access to. Even when I was at my most self-consciously butch, it always felt so fake to me. Sometimes, I wonder why I’d even WANT to be masculine, since so much of it seems so toxic.
The trans shit just makes it more confusing, because femininity for me was always something forced upon me. I guess I just feel like I’m in some no-man’s-land where I’m not capable of being masculine and can’t stand being feminine. (Though I appreciate it in my husband and my siblings; it’s adorable and sassy and all their own!)
I actually have found a book about recovering from sexual abuse as a guy that actually talks a bit about it. It’s honestly the first time I’ve actually felt like I might belong at all!
I suspect that PUAs lie even more than the average male about how much sex they are getting.
I’ve known guys who were very successful with females at dating (etc) and none of them acted like PUAs at all. And they came in all body types and sizes, from short and dumpy, to classically ‘good looking’, to quite effeminate looking and so on (sorry also to the ‘looking masculine’ crowd).
But they were all interesting people (in different ways), real individuals and they were all interested in their female partner and showed it. Most had a very good sense of humour, all were intelligent and could hold a good conversation. And they were fun to be with, you were never bored with them around. Not all were so successful at long term relationships though…..
And just to break the hearts of all of the PUAs (etc) out there even more. I have a part time trans friend who is drop dead gorgeous when in female mode…and when they go out as a female they attract lots of young attractive genetic female attention, they are all over her (I just watched it happen again last night at the pub)….
So boys if you are not getting any female attention..try wearing a dress….lol…
LBT: ” trans shit” for MTF TGs is not about faking ‘femininity” (whatever that is this week), rather it is dropping the fake ‘masculinity’ you pretended for many years to fit in and finally letting yourself act naturally (however that is for you personally).
Trans people express themselves as females in as many different ways as genetic females do. Media attention gets focussed on those beautiful or ‘outrageous’ ones, but the majority of us just do our best to fit in as average people.
Many of us became very astute observers of male behaviour when young as a survival mechanism to learn how to ‘act’ in a way to fit in as a male and not get bullied, bashed, excluded, etc. Because it wasn’t natural to us we had to consciously observe very carefully and copy as best we could.
This still happens in many places now. Those fortunate enough to have access to pre puberty treatment (as per the Dutch protocols) don’t have to go through this crap, never have to do this fake masculinity thing and can live naturally in their real gender from a young age. And they are as individual in their behaviour as any young female (or male for FTM ‘transmen’ of course).
I remember having a conversation with a friend at university. At one point I brought up my brothers (three, all older), and he said, “Oh, that must be why you’re so naturally masculine.” You could have knocked me over with a feather boa. Upon further discourse, I realized that he – despite being a good five inches taller and noticeably mesomorphic – had grown up feeling like what he called a sissy. Since puberty, he had worked out and monitored his speech and body language so he wouldn’t feel like a failure as a man. I was aghast. The idea of ‘masculinity’ as some badge of membership or achievement was baffling to me.
Now, I was never good at gender-variant behavior, myself. I’ve never even done drag, although my husband assures me that he is just fine with that.
zyvlyn, while there’s a fair bit of insistence among the varied groups (MRAs, MGTOWs and PUAs, in particular) that these are separate movements, in the long run, the underlying psychology is very, very similar; that’s why on this site, David refers heavily to the ‘Manosphere’, which includes all these specific flavors of misogynistic behavior.
In this case, specifically:
1: The assumption that all women are secretly alike, and thus you should expect the same reaction from all women to a formulaic behavior.
2: The assumption that women do not deserve to be treated with the same respect and courtesy as a man.
3: The assumption that men intrinsically know what is ‘better’ for women, and know this better than the women themselves do.
And yes, the comments sections are notoriously foul, generally speaking and specifically on YouTube. That doesn’t put them out of bounds for mockery, which is, if you’ll recall, the purpose of this site.
After watching this I went through a few of Amy Young’s videos. I really liked a lot about them. funnily, the more I watched, the prettier she seemed. I found myself almost mesmerised. (!) But her smarts and common sense are def where it’s at. I reckon she’s a valuable resource for young (or older) women learning about dating and its pluses and pitfalls.
I knew her queen comment would upset some but I think she means that a guy on a date who wants to go further with a woman because he likes her ideally treats her really well – really considerately, really attentively, etc. He would going out of his way to make her feel good. That’s what a good guy does when dating, I think. He looks for ways to make that woman happy. If there’s none of that, and a guy treats a woman like she’s just another person in the room, it’s a sign he’s not that keen (or, alternatively, not that socially aware). Doesn’t mean he’s a shithead to everyone around, of course. He just prioritises his date. In that sense, she’s treated like a queen. In only that sense.
As for ‘masculinity’ they are all posers. They are not men, they are jokes.
The most ‘masculine’ man I ever met was my grandfather. Fought at the Somme in WW1, worked in the shipyards all his life…and a more gentle, kind, strong, caring, intelligent, talented man you would never find anywhere.
His wife tragically died young and he brought up 3 children by himself, he tought me chess …and and how to knit and sow. He cooked, cared, filled the house with books. Took me to the zoo, explained things, gave me a first english edition of Einsiein’s own book on relativity (much better than most textbooks). An intellectual and a hard worker.
A kind, gentle man. But was also known to others as a ‘hard man’ that no one would mess with, which in Glasgow in the 1940s/50/60s says a lot.
Supported his children in what they did, worked hard for their education and was proud of them and supported them. He would walk to work, then walk back to cook for his children at lunchtime, then walk back to work, then walk home again and cook dinner.
And a total gentleman toward women. Yes a person with some of the prejudices of the time (though not in any way education for women) but a good gentle man wth his heart always in the right place.
And he was a real man, compared to which all these MRA/PUAs are very, very, pale imitations. He would have despised them…and decked them in a moment if he caught any of then treating any of his daughters (or their friends) badly. Even though he despised violence, he had seen far too much death, there were expections.
Those, and many other role models, are positive masculinity. It is sad that so many young males are not getting good ones.. Sadly the same appies to some females, though, unlike so many males, it is getting better for them. I see a bad trend in that too many males are getting bad models to follow. Where more and more females are getting good ones.
Though there is hope everywhere , India where the young girl was gang raped and killed and the massive demonstratons about it. Then, it sounds cruel, a couple of guys were killed by a mob because they raped a woman. But it shows that the ‘rape’ culture is not universal in any society or amongst males (many of which would lay down their lives to prevent it even in the most chauvinistic cultures).
Lot of good guys out there. Lot of guys pretending to be arseholes’, but in ther hearts are good poeple (dodgy though, only recommended for really strong females, otherwise, my hint, avoid..group think and all that as I explained) .
And I agree with the video, reward the good guys, punish the bad ones The best way to kill off the PUAs, MRAs and all the rest is to totally laugh at them at their stupidity, then ignore them and then walk away.
I’d also recommend these guys take T blockers, which will kill their sex drives so they have no desires for females at all. So they can spend all their time with their ‘homosocial male’ friends and have no dreaded, for them, desires for those all so hated females.
“A heck of a lot of males (but fortunately not all by any means) are funny in groups. For some of them there is a real desire to lose their personal identity within them, to take on this group identity and opinions, plus (though they hate to admit it) synchophancy can be a factor, especially if there is a strong leader of the group. If the group ‘norms’ are positive or neutral, then there is no real harm. But if the group is negative then it can get very ugly indeed.”
This actually explains a lot of how chan culture (one of the most male dominated internet cultures), and thus GamerGate works. The almost cult-like hive mind that you see on the chans regarding virtually EVERY issue is largely a product of that need to fit in, to be a part of “anon”, to not be called a random slur Cartman-style. Conform or be abused, conform or be ridiculed as a “pussy” or “beta” wtc. Similarly, the same dynamics are at work in GG where anyone who tries to bring up ethical concerns or points out the transphobia, sexism, casual racism etc are shouted down insulted, or just ignored, because they’ve bound up their personal idenities in the GG hate train. And the irony is that a lot of GGers would be considered “failed males” by “traditional” toxic masculinity, but instead of rejecting those assumptions and structures, they just replicate them.
Lisa, I may be misreading your last post and if so, I’m sorry, but a few things about it are kind of creeping me out.
Rape is terrible and should be eradicated, but are you saying a lynch mob killing accused (or even convicted) rapists is a good thing? That those people are “good guys”? Also killing a rapist is not necessarily the same thing as “laying down your life to prevent” someone from being raped. Lynch mobs are ugly things and in my country (US) generally enforced horrible social norms like racism rather than heroically corrected injustices.
I don’t think MRAs, PUAs other misogynists are going to magically not hate women if they have no sex drive.
Skye, not meant that way at all and I agree totally about lynch mobs. But it shows that there were enough people there who were so strongly emotional against rape that they were prepared to do a terrible thing.
As horrible as it was, it does show that drive exists amongst many people there. Hopefully over time that will be channeled into better and productive actions and outcomes.
I was being a bit lighthearted about T blockers and I agree that it wouldn’t cure their misogyny, but at least it might stop them sexually harrasing the women they hate so much.
I got to wonder, when did NIN become “mannly music for mannly men” anyways? Last time I checked all the misogyny in their lyrics were ironic and part of making whatever character they were singing about seem like a disturbing creepy bastard, at least on the Downward Spiral album (which is the one I am the most familiar with) and according to what I have seen Trent Reznor say in interviews.
Oh right, these people don’t understand irony, satire, sarcasm or that when something sounds like a distorted nightmare it’s probably not meant to glorify the actions in the song, so I guess that could be it too =P
As someone who likes Taylor Swift, Carley Rae Jepson and NIN I really dig those mashups, thanks for sharing them
Lisa, thanks for the clarification. I appreciate it. I totally agree with your hope that better and productive actions and outcomes will come from people who are driven to act against rape.
I always took “Big Man with a Gun” to be a critique of masculinity but I may be overly optimistic.
can I just say one thing about the video? In particular the line “…treated like a queen…”
Am I alone in feeling this perpetuates some of the same tired old bullshit as well? How about “treated like a fellow human, worthy of respect and dignity”? (or something to that effect)
as a guy I don’t expect to be treated “like a king”, for example, and a woman who demands to be treated like a queen doesn’t interest me much either
Geez, lots of hate for NIN in such a short post! So, hilariously, I found this page looking up Nine Inch Nails discussion. I was just having a conversation yesterday in which I proposed “Big Man with a Big Gun” is obviously about toxic masculinity. Considering Trent Reznor’s progressive antics (even advertising for PETA, ugh), it’s hard to take that song at face value, especially when he exchanges the gun/phallus so easily via shooting/coming. Point being, I don’t find NIN some archetype of MRAs despite the fact Trent Reznor was certainly an Angry White Male.