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#gamergate anti-Semitism antifeminism empathy deficit entitled babies evil SJWs hypocrisy irony alert literal nazis memes memesplaining men who should not ever be with women ever misogyny MRA

Is this anti-Semitic cartoon of Anita Sarkeesian harassment or legitimate criticism? You'll be surprised by the answer these dudes gave!

Yeah, let's see your data for this.
Yeah, let’s see your data for this.

So I found the meme above on a Facebook page called “Feminist Hypocrisy.”

I also found this familiar pic posted there as well.

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And this highly edifying discussion underneath it:

anitagoldstar

Huh. I’m seeing some hypocrisy here, but it doesn’t look much like feminist hypocrisy.

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ParadoxicalIntention
5 years ago

scott | March 6, 2015 at 8:21 pm

I play video games and the closest thing I’ve seen to a legit criticism is that she sometimes picks bad examples to back up her points.

Everything else is just “oh no she’s a woman and she has opinions”

Glad to see there’s someone else in this particular camp. I’ve only watched the first episode of TvW, and I feel like she rags on Princess Peach a bit too much, but other than that, I didn’t see anything particularly heinous.

Also, I watched this video today, and it’s got a bunch of dislikes because “Games aren’t racist! Whaaa! Stop asking me to change!”

wordsp1nner
wordsp1nner
5 years ago

I just feel like sharing this:

Karl Winterling
5 years ago

I’m still at a loss as to what Anita has to do with video game journalism. People have been criticizing video game journalism for years, and GamerGaters seem to hate the people who are actually trying to reform game journalism. Historically, game journalists have been careful to not give negative reviews to popular games because they were afraid to offend players who liked the games. You’re not going to give a low rating to a game with 80% 10/10 user reviews on Metacritic, or you’ll start losing your reader base. Hence, shallow and thoroughly mediocre games get rave reviews.

wordsp1nner
wordsp1nner
5 years ago

And speaking of fascists, Bootleg Girl has come up with an interesting explanation of neo-reactionaries and Gamergaters:

http://www.bootleggirl.com/neoreaction-plato-and-the-latter-day-philosopher-kings-or-why-cant-justine-tunney-be-the-empress-of-the-world/

Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
5 years ago

I’m still at a loss as to what Anita has to do with video game journalism.

Oh, Anita has nothing to do with video game journalism. The whole ‘Ethics in video game journalism!!’ bit only started after Zoe Quinn was singled out by an ex-boyfriend who claimed she’d slept with somebody who’d reviewed her game. (A claim which was easily proven false, at least that the reviewer she may have slept with never actually reviewed her game.) Really the ‘ethics in video game journalism’ is just an official cover story by the people who are at least smart enough to realize that actively saying they hate women in games doesn’t sound good. They’re just hating on an amorphous glob of feminism in the form of Anita Sarkeesian, Zoe Quinn, and Brianna Wu, because those are the nails actively sticking up that have refused to be nailed down yet.

Adam
Adam
5 years ago

Like others have said, she picks poor examples sometimes, and she sometimes overstates her case. And she could definitely stand to put her work out faster. You can’t really hit her with the “where’s the money going” paranoia anymore because Feminist Frequency is officially a nonprofit now and thus releases annual budget data. She did technically steal artwork for her tropes vs. women banner (which she’s since resolved), as well as some let’s play footage in her earlier videos. But, I mean, no moreso than the original artist was stealing a character design or the LPers were stealing the games they recorded. Hell, you could argue the LPers are more at fault because LPers collect ad revenue off videos of them playing other people’s video games, while Anita doesn’t profit off her work. Even so, definitely less-than-ethical practice.

Other than that, pretty much all the other criticism I’ve seen of her is obvious strawmanning, taking stuff out of context, or just wacky conspiracy theory nonsense. The vast majority of their arguments are thoroughly refuted in the very videos they’re responding to. The level of hate towards her is just insane in any case.

It’s not quite as baffling as with Rebecca Watson, because at least Sarkeesian goes out of her way to criticize stuff her harassers like, but there’s just no accounting for it without acknowledging an incredible degree of misogyny within the gaming community.

Cthulhu's Intern
5 years ago

So what exactly are the units for “amount of criticism” and “amount of harassment” in those pie graphs? How do they calculate it?

Cthulhu's Intern
5 years ago

So anyways, I’ve been kind of out of the loop: Are they still trying to pretend that this movement’s about ethics in journalism?

Omnicrom
Omnicrom
5 years ago

So let’s see, this thread of people who generally like Sarkeesian have criticized her by saying things like “She occasionally uses bad examples” the related “Sometimes it feels like she’s reaching” and “She’s kind of dry and I don’t really like her style”. Meanwhile the people who flaunt their “Legitimate criticism” seem to sum up their points with “I want to kill that Greedy Jew just like the Nazis”. I think that really does say it all.

Omnicrom
Omnicrom
5 years ago

Yes Cthulhu’s Intern, they really are still saying that.

suffrajitsu
suffrajitsu
5 years ago

You’ll occasionally see “I’m not a Gamergater, I’m totally neutral but Anita Sarkeesian is a fraud and Zoe Quinn is a slut and they actually deserve the harassment” types talking about how “critical discussion of FemFreq is not allowed, you can’t criticize Anita without being called a misogynist.” That’s nonsense. People can and do Anita without being called misogynists. Anita’s haters are called misogynists because they’re misogynists, not because feminists blame any critique of a woman on sexism.

For what it’s worth, I like her academic presentation style myself, because I find her a strong speaker and I think it lends a nice professional polish to the videos, though I do understand where the people who find them a bit dry are coming from. I also think it’s worth keeping in mind that with any large-scale discussion of sexism in media, particularly one with as many examples as she uses, there are going to be ones that are more contentious. Gender roles can be pretty contradictory and perfectly like-minded feminists will often disagree on whether particular things are sexist or not. I also found some of her examples a little weak, but she uses a heck of a lot of examples, so a few iffy ones are pretty forgivable.

suffrajitsu
suffrajitsu
5 years ago

*can and do criticize Anita, gah.

Thaag Tidestalker
5 years ago

Erm… isn’t Sarkeesian an Armenian name? How the fuck are these people EvilJewifying her? I am confused. Then again misogyny in general confuses me so take that as one would.

Orion
5 years ago

I play video games and the closest thing I’ve seen to a legit criticism is that she sometimes picks bad examples to back up her points.

Actually, I do think there’s room to be more critical than that. I think she has dogmatic and narrow-minded ideas about art, and that when she does speak prescriptively about what she thinks games and movies ought to be like, I’m not impressed.

Fortunately, she’s not running for public office and she hasn’t started a petition to repeal the first amendment. It would be really bad if people needed her permission for everything they wanted to make, but that’s an absurd paranoid self-delusion, so whatevs. I quite like tropes vs. women as a journalistic or a documentary project. I don’t really see it as an academic or critical enterprise, but the amount of data she collects and organizes is really impressive and would be a really useful source for a critic to work from.

katz
5 years ago

I think she has dogmatic and narrow-minded ideas about art

Really? What sort of ideas do you mean?

Orion
5 years ago

The best example that comes to mind is her review of True Grit. I’m going to go re-watch it to verify my recollection and get a good quote, but basically she praises the execution but says that she won’t call it a “feminist movie” because it’s too violent. Ms. Sarkeesian would rather see us rejecting the tropes (honor, revenge, aggression) that feed into toxic masculinity, rather than expanding access so that girls are participating too. That’s a reasonable preference but I see no reason to be so hardline about. If you’re a pacifist in real life, I’m with you. If you think our media glorifies violence too much, I’m with you. If you want to say that you personally are more interested in seeing stories that celebrate non-butch virtues than stories about butch women, that’s a perfectly reasonable preference. Declaring that art which argues for equality in a way you personally dislike is non-feminist seems a bit presumptuous.

Orion
5 years ago

There’s a transcript hereThis is the most salient quote:

In my feminist vision, part of what makes a character feminist is watching her struggle with prioritizing values such as cooperation, empathy, compassion, and non violent conflict resolution in a world largely hostile to those values.

I’m a huge fan of these values and I wish we saw them played out on screen more often, but I’m not willing to say that a characterization *must* be concerned with these issues to count as “feminist.”

katz
5 years ago

Orion: Oh, interesting. I haven’t seen that video.

mildlymagnificent
5 years ago

I don’t really see it as an academic or critical enterprise, but the amount of data she collects and organizes is really impressive and would be a really useful source for a critic to work from.

I think her professional, fairly flat affect, keeping-myself-out-of-it style makes it a useful asset. If I were running a media/ women’s studies course at 101 level, I can quite see myself including one, of more, of these videos in the list of resources students could refer to when doing a project.

Orion
5 years ago

http://www.feministfrequency.com/2013/08/damsel-in-distress-part-3-tropes-vs-women/

In the third video game damsel video, she pitches a hypothetical game called “Legend of the Last Princess,” as an example of a “true subversion.” It’s terrible. Here’s her mission statement:

A true subversion of the trope would need to star the damsel as the main playable character. It would have to be her story. Sadly, there are very few games that really explore this idea. So as a way to illustrate how a deconstruction could work let’s try a thought experiment to see if we can create a hypothetical game concept of our own.

And here’s her pitch:

“Like many fairy tales, this story begins once upon a time with the kidnapping of a princes. She dutifully waits for a handsome hero to arrive and rescue her. Eventually, however, she grows tired of the damseling and decides it’s high time to save herself. Of course if she’s going to be the protagonist of this particular adventure she’s going to need to acquire a slightly more practical outfit. After her daring escape, she navigates the forbidden forest, leveling up her skills along the way. Upon reaching her kingdom, she discovers the inevitable yet unexpected plot twist; the royal counsel has usurped power and were responsible for her kidnapping. Branded a traitor and an outlaw in her own land, she unlocks new disguises and stealth abilities to infiltrate the city walls. She makes her way through the final castle to confront the villainous council, and abolish the monarchy forever.”

This really frustrates me because I don’t think this game does subvert damsel tropes. In fact, I don’t think it’s even relevant to a discussion of damsel tropes. This is just a completely generic action-adventure story that happens to have a female protagonist. Yes, she’s locked up for a few seconds, but a jailbreak scene or level is a standard trope in thriller movies or action games that male protagonists get all the time. Even busting your way out of prison during the tutorial level is a standard thing. The classic damsel trope is about a woman in need of rescue and a male rescuer. A critique or subversion won’t necessarily have both elements. You could look at what happens if the woman doesn’t need a knight in shining armor but he shows up anyway. You could look at what happens when she does need a white knight but he doesn’t show. You could change the genders of any of the participants, and so on. However, I think that if you’re going to talk about damsels you need to have at least one of the two roles covered. The Last Princess doesn’t need to be rescued and no one is trying to rescue her, so it’s just not part of that conversation.

Later in the video, Ms. Sarkeesian says

Now I’m certainly not arguing that all stories must include completely fearless hyper individualistic heroic women who pull themselves up by their bootstraps and never need anything from anyone.

, but when she had the opportunity to pitch a story, that’s the story she gave us. She never does drop the other shoe and show us the story about a vulnerable or victimized woman she would find acceptable. It’s pretty ironic, actually, because she’s basically doing the same thing she didn’t like in True Grit. Also, I find it hilarious that Ms. Sarkeesian makes her princess abolish the monarchy at the end, because it just comes out of nowhere. There’s nothing in the plot that suggested we were building to that, and it doesn’t have anything at all to do with themes about power, peril, prison, and princesses. I’m pretty sure it’s only there because Ms. Sarkeesian is terrified that someone might think she was endorsing monarchy because she sympathized with a character who is a princess in a video game that doesn’t even exist. I think that basically sums up my critique. Ms. Sarkeesian uses “feminism” and “truth” to mean “the sum of all of my social and political values” and her critical project is basically about drawing boundaries to exclude everything that isn’t a direct and faithful replication of her values.

Shalimar
Shalimar
5 years ago

@Orion

She never does drop the other shoe and show us the story about a vulnerable or victimized woman she would find acceptable.

She’s not a censor every game has to please before it can be made. Why in the hell should she have to find any story about a victimized woman acceptable? What the fuck? Just because she doesn’t like it doesn’t mean you can’t buy the damned game.

Shalimar
Shalimar
5 years ago

Also,

her critical project is basically about drawing boundaries to exclude everything that isn’t a direct and faithful replication of her values.

No. This misperception is why everything you think is so fucked up. Her project is about pointing out numerous intentional and inadvertent boundary violations and telling publishers, “tens if not hundreds of millions of people share these general boundaries, if you try to be more respectful of them at least some of the time, you will make more money by selling more games.”

Even if she completely changed the market so that every major publisher stayed within those boundaries on all of their games, there will always be a huge supply of any product that intentionally breaks boundaries. Creative people will still make misogynistic games that you enjoy.

lith
lith
5 years ago

@Orion:

She never does drop the other shoe and show us the story about a vulnerable or victimized woman she would find acceptable.

The way I see it she’d find some of the current ones acceptable if they weren’t the vast majority of plots involving women. That’s how I feel about it anyway.
The whole point is that there are a tiny minority of stories that are about women in any other capacity. Male characters get a wide range of roles – pretty much everything that doesn’t involve being vulnerable and/or pretty and/or the motivation for a male character. Male characters occasionally get those roles as well, whereas women pretty much only get those.

Karl Winterling
5 years ago

The “damsel in distress” trope is really old. My disagreement with Anita is mostly that it can make melodrama more interesting because people tend to care more about the protagonist saving someone he or she loves. Historically speaking, most protagonists in melodramas have been heterosexual males, which is problematic in itself. You could argue that a female saving a male is just a reversal of biological sex that doesn’t challenge implicitly assumed gender roles, but somebody (probably not Anita) will probably have an issue with gender roles regardless of how unconventional or complex the characters are.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
5 years ago

@lith:

The way I see it she’d find some of the current ones acceptable if they weren’t the vast majority of plots involving women. That’s how I feel about it anyway.

That’s it, as far as I’m aware. In fact, that’s the issue with almost all of media. Practically every story with some merit to it should be considered acceptable, but if only one type of story is repeated over and over to the exclusion of others, it’s going to start looking problematic.

There’s a challenge going on for people to read only non-white-male authors for a year. It’s not that white-male authors are bad, or that their stories can’t be interesting or damn good, it’s that their perspective has been the only one that’s really been available. We need to highlight other voices for a while to balance things out.

Then, when non-white-male authors aren’t a favored category, their voices will just be one part of the crowd, and they will no longer be considered problematic.

Lea
Lea
5 years ago

Taruhi,

Oh, do elaborate. Shower us with your wisdom.

Cthulhu’s Intern,

So what exactly are the units for “amount of criticism” and “amount of harassment” in those pie graphs? How do they calculate it?

Astonishing how blatantly they’ll lie. They can make up anything they like because it does not matter what claims they make or if they’re true. These men are determined to terrorize this woman until she shuts up, changes her name and goes into hiding. They’re doing it because they can abuse a woman safely behind rape culture, anonymity and a mob of other abusers. This delights them. They are hateful, vicious cowards. The internet has given abusive misogynists a leg up. They can terrorize several targets in packs and face no repercussions. It’s efficient. It’s ideal. They won’t stop until they have to because they are having more fun than they have ever had in their lives. These men (and some women) are living their dream. That’s who ‘gaters are.

Lea
Lea
5 years ago

Is this thread going to become about criticizing the woman being terrorized and lied about?

Hambeast (formerly twincats)
Hambeast (formerly twincats)
5 years ago

She never does drop the other shoe and show us the story about a vulnerable or victimized woman she would find acceptable.

So what? She didn’t show us a story about a vulnerable or victimized man either. An example is just that, *an* example, as in just one. It’s not a template to be used to crank out feminist-acceptable video games, for dog’s sake.

Why should Anita Sarkeesian have to churn out example after example until you agree with one? Doing so would get to be beside the point of her critique really quickly.

Scarlettathena
5 years ago

Maybe it’s because I’m an academic, but I really like Sarkeesian’s work. It’s very scholarly and very much in line with what I do, which is read books and watch films and comment on them.

The good thing about scholarly work is that there can be room fro debate and discussion. Unfortunately, most people just want to call her a bitch or other smear and threaten her life. Most of the negative comments I’ve read seem to miss the point. They really don’t want to engage in a discussion, they want to silence her.

One of the things I really appreciate that she said is that it is possible to enjoy and even like stories, games, movies, etc even when we find problems with some aspect. She didn’t say down with all video games until they are like I want!

Also, I agree with Hambeast – she’s just giving one example, and why should she have to satisfy anyone’s ideas of what she “should” do? And perhaps she didn’t give an example of a story about a vulnerable of victimized woman because part of her point is that there are plenty out there. What she seems to be advocating is more and more diverse roles for women and in games where there is the option of a woman character that the story not revolve around the fantasies of cis-het males (like having a woman give you a lap dance or watching a pole dancer).

Further, I think her point that a lot of the details (like strippers, pole dancers, prostitutes as well as the drug dealers and other assortment of underworld types) is a cheap way to be “edgy” without having to think too much. I don’t know about other people around here, but I do find there is a LOT of really lazy writing and character building in movies, shows, books, games, everywhere!

lith
lith
5 years ago

I also like Sarkeesian’s work, even though there’s one or two pretty minor points in the tropes series I considered stretching the point. But it wasn’t actually wrong and I agree with everything else she had to say, definitely a worthwhile series.

I agree about the not wanting to engage in discussion, every time she says anything they either harass her or use the old, “men have that problem too!” thing to shut down the conversation (and not because they’re in any way interested in fixing it).

Hambeast (formerly twincats)
Hambeast (formerly twincats)
5 years ago

@scarletathena:

…there is a LOT of really lazy writing and character building in movies, shows, books, games, everywhere!
I think we’ve stumbled upon the true meaning of “ethnics in video game journalism” here. It means “don’t rock the boat cuz we like our lazy, sexist tropes. Quit poking those developers!”

katz
5 years ago

Orion, first you complained that she expects media to conform to a narrow vision, then you complained that she pitched a piece of media that didn’t conform to your narrow vision.

I am squinting at you in an unimpressed fashion.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

I’ve noticed that when feminists/allies criticize the things Anita Sarkeesian says in her videos, it’s almost always men.

I think it’s all about defensiveness. Even men who are generally well meaning don’t always want to hear that the things they like are problematic.

I’m also not sure why this has turned into a conversation about nitpicking a harassment victim.

katz
5 years ago

I’m also not sure why this has turned into a conversation about nitpicking a harassment victim.

Yeah, you’d think that if there was one time when you might choose to overlook whatever minor disagreements you have with someone’s arguments…

Sometimes it seems like people are trying to prove something about themselves. You know, “I’m cool, I’m not part of a hive mind, I’m not afraid to criticize Anita Sarkeesian!”

Karl Winterling
5 years ago

I guess my issues are not really criticisms or disagreements with Anita. They’re more thinking through stuff. But yeah, the GamerGaters pretty much poisoned the well on the possibility of having a respectful discussion.

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

“And a nice shower”, says the guy with two biblical, Jewish first names. About a woman who isn’t Jewish.

And this is NOT harassment, but “legitimate criticism”?
comment image

Taruhi
Taruhi
5 years ago

@lbt
Who said that? I was referring to the four or five guys specifically that seem to be in that group, not in general. As for your question: At least two. Harassment is the act of repeatedly harassing, pestering, troubling, or disturbing. However, what they’re doing is talking behind closed doors. It’s like teenage girls gossiping at the mall to each other. Just as immature as well.
@Andiexist
Well, yeah. I never said they weren’t being horrible. In fact, I pretty clear I explicitly said they’re being assholes. But that’s all they’re being. They’re acting like immature 5 year olds with basic knowledge of general history. They’re neither harassers or critics. Just assholes. Scummy, scummy little assholes.
@Lea
Are you sure you’re responding to me? O.o What’s to elaborate on with any level of wisdom in my comment? It’s a pretty basic comment.

GrumpyOldMangina
5 years ago

“She’s done such a good job, she deserves a golden star.”
“And a nice shower.”

Treating this as an anti-semitic exchange requires
(1) they are aware of the anti-semitic origin of the cartoons
(2) they are probably aware of the Nazi requirement that Jews wear a yellow star of David
(3) they are aware of the fact that the Nazi gas chambers were disguised as showers.
Now it is quite possible that this interpretation is correct. But there is another possibility — that the second guy is picking up on “golden star” and suggesting that she should have a “golden shower”, that someone should piss on her. This would be a less disturbing interpretation only because almost anything is better than Nazism.

Orion
5 years ago

I completely understand why some feel it’s inappropriate to discuss her videos in this thread. If the consensus is not to do that, I’ll abide by it. These are opinions I’ve held for several years now, and unfortunately it doesn’t seem likely that her harassment will stop any time soon, so I stopped waiting for that, but I can see that it still might be better to share my opinion on her videos on a site or thread that was about gaming rather than about harassment.

No. This misperception is why everything you think is so fucked up. Her project is about pointing out numerous intentional and inadvertent boundary violations and telling publishers, “tens if not hundreds of millions of people share these general boundaries, if you try to be more respectful of them at least some of the time, you will make more money by selling more games.”

Yes, I understand that this is her primary project. It’s important work and she’s doing it well. I wouldn’t describe it as a critical project, myself. There are bits here and there in her videos in which she starts to develop a theory or at least a definition of what “feminist art” would look like and how it would function. That’s what I mean when I discuss her “critical project,” and that’s what I’m taking issue with.

@Hambeast, So what? She didn’t show us a story about a vulnerable or victimized man either.She did 3 actually; Primal, Beyond Good and Evil, and Aquaria. In that same section she goes on to say something I find really interesting.

That said I don’t necessarily think equal opportunity damseling is the answer. Simply reversing the gender roles of a problematic convention so that more men are damsel’ed in more games is not the best long-term solution, even if the practice might be subversive in the short term to help demonstrate a very real gender disparity in the medium. Ultimately we need to think beyond the cliché altogether.

What I think she’s saying here is that, even without considering gender, making one character helpless and 2-dimensional just to motivate another character makes for bad art, and it’s best to try to give some dignity and humanity to all our characters. I agree with this completely That’s why I found Legend of the Last Princess disappointing. If a good developer made it, it might be an awesome game; I loved transistor, septerra core, mirror’s edge, and so on. It’s a disappointing non-answer to the challenge she set herself in this video.

@shalimar, I’m really not crying for lack of misogynistic games to buy. Here, let me pitch you a game and see if that can explain what I’m getting at.

In Hostage, you play a young member of a royal family who has been captured and held as a political prisoner. If the game has a fixed protagonist, she’s a woman. If the game supports character creation, then the player can choose gender. All the game play takes place in the one room you’re held in. Each day you receive letters, then check out your windows and look for clues, then write letters, then click the bed to go to sleep. You can send letters to your family, to royalty in other kingdoms, to members of your captors’ alliance you think you can flip, or to personal friends and secret allies. However, the default messenger won’t deliver to all of these recipients, and will censor the content of your messages. Sometimes you’ll get the opportunity to use a special courier like a sympathetic member of your captors’ family, a double-agent who infiltrated your enemies, or a thief who can sneak in at night to pick up letters. These courier can send you letters more places with less oversight. There are 2 “good” endings, in which either your captors release you or you are rescued by your family’s army; 2 “bad” endings, in which you are executed or make the political marriage your captors want you to, and 2 “mixed” endings, in which you are either rescued in a “dishonorable” night raid which angers your family’s allies and extends the war, or you are ransomed at ruinous expense. Optional romance subplots allow you to get with the thief who delivers your secret letters at night, the princess of a neighboring country you know only from her letters, the servant who cleans your room and delivers your meals, or a member of the family that capture you who is opposed to the war and argues for your release.

Ellesar
5 years ago

Grumpy – I totally missed the golden star/ star of David, and I did think of the shower being a golden one. But unfortunately what you describe about the Nazi’s does sound sickeningly possible.
I think it is likely that they are quite happy for it to be taken all the ways you describe. Surely they are totally aware of the anti semitism?

andiexist
andiexist
5 years ago
Reply to  Taruhi

Um, dude? (I’m assuming you’re a dude.) There is a huge difference between generic jerkery and saying someone should be a victim of genocide. I am quite suspicious of your seeming inability to grasp this. Given you almost certainly aren’t here in good faith… but here’s a breakdown anyway.

Horribleness beyond generic jerkery going on here:

1. Racism (obvious.)

2. Trivialization (because incredibly horrible times in human history are not things you casually insult people with.)

3. Advocacy of torture (should also be obvious.)

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

As someone pointed out earlier, they’re using a cartoon of a fascist hand symbol. It was definitely intended as a holocaust joke.

And to the person who compared it to girls gossiping, no. Just, no. I did my share of hanging out at the mall and gossiping as a teenager and we would have never dreamed of talking like that. Making a catty comment about someone’s outfit is not the equivalent of wishing someone was a genocide victim.

Taruhi
Taruhi
5 years ago

@Andiexist Okay. To avoid a further game of semantics and assuming on your part, let me go ahead and clarify for clarity’s sake.
THE GUYS IN THIS POST SAID HORRIBLE, DISGUSTING THINGS PEOPLE SHOULD NOT SAY. Okay? Are we clear here? An easy word for me to use is “asshole”. It might not be entirely accurate, but hey. I’m pretty sure we can all agree that these guys are pretty scummy. Yes? Is there anyone in contention to the fact that these guys are horrible? I don’t think so. If so, you’d have to have some pretty heavy justifications that I don’t believe they have. Period.
Have a sufficiently elaborated now?

ParadoxicalIntention
5 years ago

Taruhi | March 7, 2015 at 6:49 pm

@Andiexist
Well, yeah. I never said they weren’t being horrible. In fact, I pretty clear I explicitly said they’re being assholes. But that’s all they’re being. They’re acting like immature 5 year olds with basic knowledge of general history. They’re neither harassers or critics. Just assholes. Scummy, scummy little assholes.

I think the bolded is the bit that andiexist raised an eyebrow at, and I assure you, I’m doing the same.

They are harassers. They’re actively harassing someone. By definition. They are sending continuous hate at Anita Sarkeesian because they don’t like her. They won’t leave her be, and they’re trying to bully her into silence.

What you seem to be doing is minimizing the issue and saying “it’s just assholes acting like assholes!” which is a very similar statement to “boys will be boys”. You’re essentially saying “well, they’re assholes, so what did you expect?”, and giving them an out for their shitty behavior, regardless of if you condemn it or not.

No one said you agreed with them, only that you’re trying to brush it off as Not A Big Deal, when it is very much A Big Deal.

katz
5 years ago

There are bits here and there in her videos in which she starts to develop a theory or at least a definition of what “feminist art” would look like and how it would function. That’s what I mean when I discuss her “critical project,” and that’s what I’m taking issue with.

Okay, so you’re taking issue with something that isn’t her main point and that she hasn’t addressed directly or fleshed out in a comprehensive manner.

That does not make much sense to me. She’s just mentioning bits and aspects of what feminist art might mean; she could have a comprehensive theory that totally encompasses everything you want it to include. Or that makes a really airtight case for why it shouldn’t include those things. Or, for that matter, maybe she just hasn’t thought about it that hard because it’s not her point and it’s not the thing she wants to argue about.

Taruhi
Taruhi
5 years ago

@ParadoxicalIntent
But that’s the thing! They aren’t sending Anita anything. They’re, in fact, doing the opposite. They are purposefully discussing their hate between themselves, in a sectioned off group that Anita would NEVER go to. They are keeping their hate away from her in very sick, very cruel jokes. Unless, of course, you were to suggest that Anita is a follower of “Feminist Hypocrisy” fan page on Facebook. Which is why I claimed they weren’t harassing her. They are, by definition, doing nothing of the sort.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

Since you insist on making teen girl gossiping as an analogy, do you think gossiping behind someone’s back and secret sharing isn’t used as a form of harassment and bullying? Because it very much is.

Subtract Hominem, the Renegade Misandroid
Subtract Hominem, the Renegade Misandroid
5 years ago

This isn’t in secret or in private. It’s on the web, which is a rather public and easily-searchable place.

akestra
5 years ago

One of the most irritating “criticisms” of Sarkeesian I see is this tendency to take what she’s said so far as the sum total of all she could ever say, or will ever say, about video games, or feminism, or the portrayal of women in media. First this is irksome to me because she’s less than halfway thru her planned series, and a lot of the “but what about X!!!” objections I see assume that she will never get to “X”, even when X has been in the list of proposed topics since she launched her Kickstarter. But it is even more irksome to me because it is so extremely uncharitable about her points and intentions. Since she hasn’t said *absolutely everything* about a topic, or elided some nuance, or summarized a minor point, she is, according to her “critics” in the least hysterical phrasing, “ignorant about games!” and in the worst, most common, “A LIAR!”

The best example of this is the endless hue-and-cry about the use of Hitman footage during her discussion of violence against female NPCs (who just happen to usually be sex workers.) It is clear to anyone who isn’t going over her work with a fine-toothed misandry-calibrated comb that she is using this footage to elucidate her point about this trope in games *in general*, not singling out Hitman in particular. Another is the chronic nitpick about Crystal of Dinosaur Planet always being planned as ONE of TWO playable characters, so it wasn’t HER GAME at all! Checkmate feminists. Thus completely missing the forest for the trees, as yet another potentially interesting and independent female character is de-powered and sexualized to further a narrative solely built on a male protagonist.