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a voice for men antifeminism evil sexy ladies internet tough guy memes memesplaining men who should not ever be with women ever misogyny MRA none dare call it conspiracy oppressed white men red pill straw feminists

Memesplaining: Men being trod upon by women with feminism

Actual A Voice for Men meme

Pity the poor MRA meme-makers. It’s hard for them to find real-world images to illustrate their deeply held belief that women in general (and feminists in particular) secretly or not-so-secretly run the world.

Indeed, there seems to be a lot of photographic evidence that supports a rather different conclusion about women and power. Do women run the US congress? Nope.

11th Congress "freshman" class
11th Congress “freshman” class

The Supreme Court? Nope. (Dudes circled for easy reference.)

supcourtdudes

Corporate Boards of Directors? Nope and nope and nope and nope and nope and nope.

2011-Board-Photo board-of-directors content_corp_boardOfDirectors_fullColumnImage Board-Group-for-Web board-of-directors2 sampo_group_board_of_directors

Happily for MRAs there are still some options left – like stock photos.

The word of stock photos is a strange one indeed, one filled with women laughing alone with salad and cheering themselves while crouched on scales in their underwear.

Oh, and did I mention that stock photo sites like to make their pics of women sexxxxayy? And that they seem to have the same confusion between sexy and sexist as Nigel Tufnel of Spinal Tap?

Indeed, when Cate Savilla of Buzzfeed recently tried some common female-centric search terms on stock photo sites, these were some of the weirdly sexualized pictures that showed up in the results.

 

stockwomensports stockfemaleriendships stockfeminism

Bingo!

Apparently a lot of guys imagine feminism as some kind of session with a dominatrix. Never mind that in the real world, men getting trod upon on by women in high heels often pay quite handsomely for the experience. No, in the minds of the world’s MRAs this is a perfect image to represent the jackbooted high heeled stormtroopers of feminazi-ism.

Attach a vaguely threatening caption, and the URL for A Voice for Men, and you’ve got yourself a meme!

H/T — MUH Men’s Rights Activism and Philip Rose

UPDATE: I just realized that I featured this meme before. Well, the post still stands.

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mrex
mrex
5 years ago

However, when she no longer looks like a man, people will either a) perceive her as a a cis-woman, and then she faces the same risks as any other cis-woman, or b) perceive her as trans, in which case her risks are much higher. If she’s perceived as trans, she may also face harassment and bullying from other women, even in supposed feminist spaces, to a degree that cis women rarely faces. Plus, trans women frequently talk about how they weren’t safe from all this harmful socialization that young girls are subject to merely because people didn’t consciously aim these messages at them – they still sucked them up. So the idea that male privilege depends on being born with a penis is just plain wrong and prejudiced.-Dvärghundspossen

Yes, transphobia, and CIS privilege is a real thing. The lack of one privilege does not mean that all privilege is lacked, however. Intersectionality. 🙂

While there are many differences, this sort of reminds me of the gay men who claim that they cannot have male privelige and/or be sexist because they’re gay. And yes, they may reject toxic masculinity, and they certainly aren’t priviliged in society, but this doesn’t mean that they have absolutely no male privilege whatsoever to unpack. Privilege is a shades of gray thing, it not something that is all or nothing, so yeah. Same goes for trans folk.

Look, I don’t know what the “thread of doom” was, so let me make one thing clear; I am in no way speaking of absolutes. There are many many wonderful trans women who have unpacked all their privilege and are just wonderful all around, but there are also some assholes who still carry over their entitled mansplainy “I know you better than you, stupid CIS women” attitude that they got taught as boys.

I hope I’m explaining myself well, here.

Re: Stock photos of female friendship being sexualized

You know, while part of me is glad that lesbianism is being more accepted in society, I’m starting to get annoued that literally every single close female relationship gets sexualized. I mean you think Frozen was a cute story about the power of sisterly love? Not according to fanfiction, 99.9% of the time where its all about true love’s totally incesteous kiss! Ditto for every pair of women in movie or tv that ever work well together, or innocently touch each other, or look in each other’s general direction.

FFS society, I like women and their sexy sexy selves, but like all women, not everything’s about sex and romance! There is such thing as platonic friendship, even amongst gay women!

TL;DR Stop killing female friendship, and turning it into your personal wank fantasy, society!

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
5 years ago

@Dvarghundspossen:

Good point, not all body changes would be treated the same by the medical system. I guess the rest of my point stands that I think the only thing that would be lost in this world to trans folks is the label “man” or “woman.” That label matters a lot because society forces it to matter.

I guess some people, when they think of a genderless society, think that trans folks only transition because society puts such a heavy emphasis on gender labels and those folks don’t identify with the one they were assigned? And so if labels didn’t exist transition would never happen and trans folks would be hunky-dory with their bodies as is? As if literally the only reason you’d want a penis is because you internally identify as a “man” and society beats into your head that a “man” has a penis?

I don’t think it’d work that way. From what I’ve randomly picked up from the scientific literature, the brain expects certain sexual parts the same way it expects a limb that isn’t there anymore. That brand of body dysphoria would exist even if there were no social expectations as to what parts you “should” have. It just wouldn’t have the baggage of gender attached to it.

Dvärghundspossen
5 years ago

Yeah, privilege is a shades of gray thing and may vary depending on context. And many privileges depend on how other people perceive you, regardless of what you really are. Regardless of your ancestry, you may have white privilege in one place and be the victim of racism in another place, for instance. Same with male privilege; large chunks of that privilege package depends on whether people perceive you as a “regular man” (rather than “strange trans person” OR “woman”) or not. I agree that it’s possible for a trans person to be perceived as “a regular man” and be handed male privilege, regardless of their actual identity.

But that still doesn’t mean that there’s anything magical about being born with a penis, that any particular privilege comes with that. For instance, I have a friend who’s a trans man, and he simply looks like your average white middle-class middle-aged man. Obvs lots of privilege comes with that, and he’s the first to point that out. If he talks, people automatically assume that he’s fairly smart and competent, and listens to him in a way they won’t normally listen to women, for instance. And he’s not particularly likely to get raped, or suffer sexual harassment. According to the “being born with a penis”=”male privilege” theory, it’s inexplicable how he can have all this male privilege, since he wasn’t born with one. But having this kind of privilege – being perceived as competent, being listened to, low rape risk and so on depends neither on who you are deep inside nor on what genitals you had when you were born – it depends on how people perceive you.
Likewise, if people perceive you either as “woman” or as “strange trans person”, you don’t get handed the privileges I described above, no matter how much penis you had when you were born.

fromafar2013
5 years ago

Look, I don’t know what the “thread of doom” was, so let me make one thing clear; I am in no way speaking of absolutes. There are many many wonderful trans women who have unpacked all their privilege and are just wonderful all around, but there are also some assholes who still carry over their entitled mansplainy “I know you better than you, stupid CIS women” attitude that they got taught as boys.

Uhhh… I don’t agree.

Look, we all live in a patriarchal society. We ALL have internalized misogyny baked into us from the day we are born. Some of us are further along the unpacking process than others but no one is fully unpacked and enlightened like the Buddha, NO ONE. Whether or not we are cis or trans is an irrelevant distinction to make in this case. You are blaming a handful of women’s internalized misogyny on their transgender identity, and it makes me crinkle my nose in distaste.

No one is using the misogyny of the Honey Badgers to discredit other cis women’s experiences or opinions, are they?

mrex
mrex
5 years ago

RE:kirbey

I think some people assume that transwomen only want to transition because of something shallow, like “gee, I liked playing with Barbies as a child; holy shit I must really be a woman!” Which is a stupid POV, activities are so not gendered, but our dumb society genders them. So if we stop making some things “male” and some thing “female” and just made everything “human”, then the people who felt out of place for not fitting in would stop feeling the need to shove themselves under a label.

However, I have a hard time believing that transitioning is ever as shallow as saying “Gee, I really liked playing with Barbies!” That POV just sounds so hateful towards transpeople to me.

Of course, I don’t really know what it’s like to feel like to want to transition, so this is just my CIS privilege talking.

Dvärghundspossen
5 years ago

I guess some people, when they think of a genderless society, think that trans folks only transition because society puts such a heavy emphasis on gender labels and those folks don’t identify with the one they were assigned? And so if labels didn’t exist transition would never happen and trans folks would be hunky-dory with their bodies as is? As if literally the only reason you’d want a penis is because you internally identify as a “man” and society beats into your head that a “man” has a penis?

I don’t think it’d work that way. From what I’ve randomly picked up from the scientific literature, the brain expects certain sexual parts the same way it expects a limb that isn’t there anymore. That brand of body dysphoria would exist even if there were no social expectations as to what parts you “should” have. It just wouldn’t have the baggage of gender attached to it.

Exactly! Actually, I’ve met lots of feminists who believe what you describe here – feminists who don’t wanna shut trans people out of feminism, because they see them as poor victims of the system, but they still believe that no one would have body dysphoria if society wasn’t sexist.

Your last paragraph is what I referred to when I wrote about some body dysphoria probably having a neurological basis. That science is, from what I understand, fairly recent though. And I believe that in the society we do have with all its emphasis on gender, body dysphoria can probably have loads of different causes. I have this slight dysphoria myself, which isn’t all that serious… But I do feel much more comfortable in my body the less slender-hour-glass-shaped and the more V-shaped I can make it. This has nothing to do with society’s beauty ideals, because I always thought that I was good-looking in a sort of objective way. It’s just that I don’t feel quite at home in a slender hour-glass-shape, because it’s just… too feminine. I feel more at home in a slightly bulkier V-shape. However, in my own case, I think this is probably all tangled up with my complicated relationship with my mum and dad, and how I’ve always identified more with my dad. I probably wouldn’t feel this way in a genderless society. Then again, I have trans friends who’ve described this terribly strong feeling of having a body that’s weird and even alien, and it seems likely that this phenomenon would exist even if society had no genders; that it’s more of a biological thing.

Dvärghundspossen
5 years ago

Uhhh… I don’t agree.

Look, we all live in a patriarchal society. We ALL have internalized misogyny baked into us from the day we are born. Some of us are further along the unpacking process than others but no one is fully unpacked and enlightened like the Buddha, NO ONE. Whether or not we are cis or trans is an irrelevant distinction to make in this case. You are blaming a handful of women’s internalized misogyny on their transgender identity, and it makes me crinkle my nose in distaste.

No one is using the misogyny of the Honey Badgers to discredit other cis women’s experiences or opinions, are they?

Seconding this. Also, there are spaces on the internet where the normal rules of society ends up being a bit reversed. Like, there are social justice places where people really do enter into some sort of oppression olympics, and try to use “hey, I belong to an oppressed group!” as an argument all the time. It can get comical, sometimes. Like, person A tells person B “stop disagreeing with me and check your white privilege!” and then person B goes “well how about you check your maleprivilege! I may be white but you’re a man!” and then A yells back “well I’m poorer than you, you middleclass asshole!” and so on, and the position of being trans can obvs be thrown into the mix as well.
I’ve seen some pretty nasty people use their trans status in this way, and when they found out that they were shouting at another trans person rather than a person with cis privilege, they ended up going “well, you have internalized transphobia and that’s why you disagree with me!”. Although, the people I’ve personally seen doing this were AFAB genderqueers, so their behaviour really had zero to do with male privilege. It’s just a certain kind of really toxic internet culture. I believe there’s no way to really deal with this, except by leaving spaces where everyone behaves like that.

contrapangloss
5 years ago

Hey, guys and ladies and assorted folks of varying genders? A word of caution about a mistake I’ve made a lot:

While some stuff on this thread may be a fun thought experiment to some, for others it is a real life experience. Can we try to be careful about not running roughshod over that? Don’t know if it’s gotten to that point yet, but it feels like it could easily go there.

Also, re: whoever it was that said transwomen need to unpack male priviledge and the stuff they were taught as boys…

…please don’t do that, here.

A lot of those folks don’t think of themselves as socialized as boys, because a lot of them feel like it was noticed they weren’t typical boyish early on, and a lot of transwomen faced a lot of coercive patriarchical stuff early on to ‘correct’ their feminine behavior.

I’m not saying transwomen can’t be misogynistic or can’t be strangely fixated on wearing their posterior like a hat, because they really, really can be…

… But I’d be really, really careful about blaming that on ‘their male priviledge’.

But really, can we just not do this again?

fruitloopsie
fruitloopsie
5 years ago

Flying mouse
I’m fine thanks

Buttercup
I sure do wish we had feminist sports and teams including green buckets 🙁
And everything you said to Dolores, seriously ‘this’ so many ‘this’

Since we are talking about Trans I thought I share this with everyone
http://assignedmale.tumblr.com/post/97385408302/emergency-webcomic-about-a-transgender-girl
It’s a comic about trans, intersex and gender issues in our society. I really like it. It helped me understand despite my ‘condition’ I suggest everyone to go read it.

mrex
mrex
5 years ago

But that still doesn’t mean that there’s anything magical about being born with a penis, that any particular privilege comes with that.
No, I agree that having a penis doesn’t automatically come with a certain type of privilege, I just disagree that being trans automatically prevents you from having *any* male privilege. I think that reality is more messy than that.

For instance, I have a friend who’s a trans man, and he simply looks like your average white middle-class middle-aged man. Obvs lots of privilege comes with that, and he’s the first to point that out. If he talks, people automatically assume that he’s fairly smart and competent, and listens to him in a way they won’t normally listen to women, for instance. And he’s not particularly likely to get raped, or suffer sexual harassment. According to the “being born with a penis”=”male privilege” theory, it’s inexplicable how he can have all this male privilege, since he wasn’t born with one. But having this kind of privilege – being perceived as competent, being listened to, low rape risk and so on depends neither on who you are deep inside nor on what genitals you had when you were born – it depends on how people perceive you.

You seem to think that privilege is only about how people treat you now, but I think that privilege is also about the things and the experiences that you’ve had in the past. Some transwomen have internlized some different experiences than would be typical for a CIS girl. This doesn’t make the trans women “bad”. In fact, it probably sucks that it happened to them, as they’re probably not experiences that the trans women would have chosen.

Some of us are further along the unpacking process than others but no one is fully unpacked and enlightened like the Buddha, NO ONE.

Very true. I know I’m not Buddha, myself. No-one is. But acknowledging that you have privilege goes a long way, rather than just saying “look I’m a member of this (very) oppressed group, so I can’t have any of the privilege that I was raised with any more”. You can’t start to fix what you don’t acknowledge.

No one is using the misogyny of the Honey Badgers to discredit other cis women’s experiences or opinions, are they?

I’ve had transwomen splain my experience to me as CIS woman just like a man would. Honey badgers are obnoxious, but they simply agree with whatever men say. They may erase other women’s experience, but they don’t seem arrogant enough to do it with their own thoughts.

Again, we’re talking about specific trans women here, not trans women in general. I don’t think that trans women as a class have male privilege, I just don’t think they’re immune to it, either.

fromafar2013
5 years ago

@ Dvärghundspossen

Ugh, I’ve seen things like that too, especially on Tumblr, mostly cause that’s where I spend a good bit of time. Though I’ve seen a few trolls here pull that card too. It’s like a weird twist on the argument from authority fallacy. Being a member of an oppressed group makes you automatically an authority on the experiences of all members of all oppressed groups everywhere??? Wut?

Someone possibly new to a particular topic will be excited and eager to share their (not yet fully formed?) opinions, and inadvertently(?) step on someone’s toes. Said offended parties will try to correct the offending party, sometimes inadvertently(?) stepping on different toes themselves. Regardless, if the response to the correction is defensive, there is more toe stepping all around, and sometimes a third party will roll in with a steamroller for everyone’s toes to get crushed.

In the end, it’s a downward spiral of toe stepping badness. Everyone feels offended and hurt, no one learns anything. The Oppression Olympics: Where everyone looses equally!

I think all we can do as individuals is to call out toe steppers as matter-of-factly as possible, and double check our own words and actions so that if we turn out to be a toe stepper we can apologize and move on.

mrex
mrex
5 years ago

Re: Contra i don’t think that trans people got the typical CIS boy socialization, either. That doesn’t mean that they automatically picked up nothing, or that they automatically got socialized exactly as CIS girls would have, either. It’s more of a mixed bag, is my point.

However, I’ve been asked to stop, so stop I will. Some of this is just me trying to work things out, myself. I certainly don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings.

Dvärghundspossen
5 years ago

Also, re: whoever it was that said transwomen need to unpack male priviledge and the stuff they were taught as boys…

…please don’t do that, here.

A lot of those folks don’t think of themselves as socialized as boys, because a lot of them feel like it was noticed they weren’t typical boyish early on, and a lot of transwomen faced a lot of coercive patriarchical stuff early on to ‘correct’ their feminine behavior.

I’m not saying transwomen can’t be misogynistic or can’t be strangely fixated on wearing their posterior like a hat, because they really, really can be…

… But I’d be really, really careful about blaming that on ‘their male priviledge’.

But really, can we just not do this again?

THIS: 🙂

Also, to note, I don’t say privilege is only about how people perceive you. I explicitly said that a good chunk of the male privilege package depends on how people perceive you, which is a far cry from saying that all privilege is only about how people perceive you. But yeah, agree, we shouldn’t do this shit again.

Plus, it’s really hard to objectively judge exactly in what way other people are being assholes, because the way you perceive them will strongly impact how you interpret that assholishness. Case in point; when I was much younger, and *blush* occasionally a bit assholish to other people, perhaps to women in particular (internalized misogyny hey!) it did happen once that a whole bunch of people at an internet forum became convinced that I was a man (I am, in fact, a cis, or, eh, cisish at least, woman – born with a vagina and so on). And then everyone wondered why they didn’t realize this from day one since the assholish behaviour that I had displayed was so obviously that of a man’s. So.

Better not speculate at all about how a certain person was socialized, what kind of socialization they internalized and so on. There are assholes. There are assholes in all groups. Period.

Dvärghundspossen
5 years ago

I think all we can do as individuals is to call out toe steppers as matter-of-factly as possible, and double check our own words and actions so that if we turn out to be a toe stepper we can apologize and move on.

Exactly. Seems like we just did?

fromafar2013
5 years ago

@ contrapangloss

N’th-ing the ever loving crap out of your comment. Thanks. And on that note, I’m going to bow out and go have lunch.

Spindrift
Spindrift
5 years ago

@Fruitloopsie

Reading it now!

Newt
Newt
5 years ago

For anyone wanting to avoid the Thread o’ Doom stuff, zeedok has left a drive-by distraction on the previous page.

What part of “hypergamy” do you people not understand?

Its relevance to the OP. What do you understand “hypergamy” to mean?

All these photographs show men as providers

No, they show men in positions of power.

which is exactly how women want them to be.

Which women? How many have you asked?

So the dastardly feeeemale plan is… to make life easier for men, then marry men in the hope of getting a little bit back?

fromafar2013
5 years ago

@ Newt

Nice catch. I missed it!

Since I’m waiting for my food, I’ll do a quick FTFY.

Before: “All these photographs show men as providers, which is exactly how women want them to be. The indoctrination starts early – women as primary nurturers raise their sons to be that way.”

FIXED: “All these photographs show men as providers, which is exactly how the patriarchy wants them to be. The indoctrination starts early – women who have bought into the patriarchal model raise their sons to be that way.”

mrex
mrex
5 years ago

Plus, it’s really hard to objectively judge exactly in what way other people are being assholes, because the way you perceive them will strongly impact how you interpret that assholishness.

Yes. I wish to come back and tell you that this is an excellent point. I very much have unconcious baggage to unpack here as well. Excellent point.

I was more responding to what I saw as a sweeping generalizition that transwomen can literally *never* have male privilege, however this is not the place for this discussion. Sorry for any toes I stepped on. May I ask if there is anywhere that I can learn more about these issues? I see someone posted a comic up above, any other suggestions? 🙂

Dvärghundspossen
5 years ago

What part of “hypergamy” do you people not understand? I get it that more than a decade ago the concept might have been controversial. But hypergamy is not a new term any more.

Weird dichotomy there between “new” and “controversial”. Apparently, because MRA:s have been using the term over and over again for quite a lot of years, it has now, magically, become an uncontroversial fact that women love nothing more than giving most power and money to men in the hope that some of it will trickle back to them.

Dvärghundspossen
5 years ago

May I ask if there is anywhere that I can learn more about these issues? I see someone posted a comic up above, any other suggestions? 🙂

Not as such, but I think it’s generally a good thing, if you don’t have friends from group X with whom you’re close enough for them to talk about really personal experiences, to read intimate and personal blogs written by a variety of members from group X. At least I think I’ve learned some interesting stuff about experiences from groups with whom I normally don’t have that close an interaction with through blog-reading…

maistrechat
5 years ago

I want to repeat the point about how this discussion isn’t merely hypothetical. I think one of the issues that has caused problems in the past is that people have put forth hypothetical situations, or used actual events that they themselves did not experience as evidence for their viewpoint, and people who have actually experienced these things feel like their experiences are being coopted or invalidated.

It’s something that gets brought up when MRA trolls come in and make comments about sexual assault, or “women want X” or whatever, but it also happened in the Thread of Doom in an environment where it became very very difficult for people with certain kinds of experiences to come forward.

I guess what I’m saying is that it’s important to keep in mind that if you’re talking about something that did or could happen to somebody, or making a vague comment about whatever group, it’s extremely likely (especially on the internet, and even more especially in a community like this one) that somebody who has had that experience or who is part of that group is in the audience.

mrex
mrex
5 years ago

At least I think I’ve learned some interesting stuff about experiences from groups with whom I normally don’t have that close an interaction with through blog-reading…

Cool, any suggestions? I mean, sorry if I seem lazy, but google will turn up tons of shit and I don’t want the good stuff to get buried by the muck. Besides, already done the google route on my own. 🙂

Dvärghundspossen
5 years ago

Sorry, no… I wish I had, but the blogs I come up with are all written in Swedish, and chances are you don’t read Swedish. 🙂
I guess if this place goes back to being more trans friendly you can learn a lot by just hanging around here? We used to have lots of trans people here. LBT is trans anyway, and Argenti. Maybe more will drop in.

Dvärghundspossen
5 years ago

Plus, mrex, blockquotes work like this: You write when you begin blockquoting, and then you write when you finish blockquoting. 🙂

Dvärghundspossen
5 years ago

Okay, that didn’t work… What I wrote just disappeared? I’ll try explaining again, since mrex have trouble blockquoting… 🙂 You write the little left-pointing arrow-thing, then you write “block quote” (but as one word), then you writhe the little right-pointing arrow-thing, when you begin blockquoting. When you finish blockquoting it’s almost the same, but you write the little left-pointing arrow-thing, slash sign, “block quote”, the little right-pointing arrow-thing. That’s how you put the other person’s comment within a blockquote and your own comment outside of it.

Mrex, you seem to know how to begin a block quote, so you really only have to learn how to finish one – it’s the same, except you must insert the sign / before the word “block quote”.

contrapangloss
5 years ago

< blockquote >

Testing, testing, one two three!

< /blockquote >

contrapangloss
5 years ago

Whoot! Blockquote a be like:

<blockquote> this be the thing I’m quoting! </blockquote>

And this is my response.

Dvärghundspossen
5 years ago

Yeah! Like that, except that the little arrow-things should be right next to the word, with no spaces in between!

Damn, this is like the distinction between language and metalanguage in philosophy… How can we talk about block-quoting without actually doing so?

contrapangloss
5 years ago

Grammar, I should start using it. Pirate speak and lolcats do not mix. Why are they taking over my typing?

Buttercup Q. Skullpants

@zeedok

What part of “hypergamy” do you people not understand?

The whiny part. Also the complaining part, the nitwit evo-psych part, the “wimmenz are evil golddiggerz” part, and the “this reductive social science theory explains all human relationships forever” part. And the asshole part.

I don’t know how that term became gendered, specific to economic status, and yet another blame-cudgel to beat women with. There are men, too, who dream of attracting mates who are out of their league in one dimension or another (looks, intelligence, social adeptness, yes, even money). Who cares?

I get it that more than a decade ago the concept might have been controversial. But hypergamy is not a new term any more.

Neither is trepanning, phlogiston, or elves. Gosh, elves are way older! So they’re way truer!

All these photographs show men as providers, which is exactly how women want them to be. The indoctrination starts early – women as primary nurturers raise their sons to be that way.

Wait, so you’re trying to argue that the Supreme Court is 2/3 male because women wanted it that way? That’s some A+ doublethink right there.

katz
5 years ago

Wow, a gender discussion that doesn’t make me want to punch a wall!

Meanwhile offsite, I’m being splained beautifully. A dude is explaining to me that, when a female agent and I disagree about the personality of a character, we’re both mistaken and it’s actually a problem with the plot.

Macha
Macha
5 years ago

You know, while part of me is glad that lesbianism is being more accepted in society, I’m starting to get annoued that literally every single close female relationship gets sexualized. I mean you think Frozen was a cute story about the power of sisterly love? Not according to fanfiction, 99.9% of the time where its all about true love’s totally incesteous kiss! Ditto for every pair of women in movie or tv that ever work well together, or innocently touch each other, or look in each other’s general direction.

Personally, I’m more annoyed about all the handwringing the moment a relationship between women goes beyond friendship. Avatar, for example.

Which happens way, way more often, oddly. And yet, people always pretend the opposite is happening constantly (where, though? I hardly see it, and I actively try to find that stuff)

I also find it curious how the photos get pegged as “lesbian”. That’s not how I personally see them. At all. The two actually look very performatory for the viewer. The middle one is downright inviting to a threesome. Which fits, since the guys pictures like this are made for usually freak out utterly at the suggestion that women may not need them sexually.

Falconer
5 years ago

@katz:

Meanwhile offsite, I’m being splained beautifully. A dude is explaining to me that, when a female agent and I disagree about the personality of a character, we’re both mistaken and it’s actually a problem with the plot.</blockquote

Well, I'm so glad there was a genius around to solve your problems for you. I mean, women didn't do something like invent the novel, did they now. /snark

Falconer
5 years ago

Quest: Bring Madesi a blockquote mammoth tusk.

brooked
brooked
5 years ago

You know, while part of me is glad that lesbianism is being more accepted in society,

Depends on which society you’re talking about. It’s also often little more than a punch line in popular culture, but that’s true about minorities in general.

I’m very glad things are going better for you, LBT!

In, uh, honor of the 50 Shades movie’s success I’m going to enthusiastically plug Looney-Brain’s mocking of the novel. It was unfinished because the book was just too awful but what’s there is mighty funny. The infamous totes legal BDSM contract chapter is a high point and particularly hilarious.

http://lb-lee.livejournal.com/530725.html

deniseeliza
deniseeliza
5 years ago

@Dvärghundspossen I really appreciate all the awesome comments you’ve left on this thread.

Anyway, to make the brackets show up the comment, you have to write the HTML code for them. The codes are as follows:

< = &lt;
> = &gt;

(LT stands for “less than”, GT stands for “greater than”)

(Hopefully I didn’t much all this up and when I press Post Comment it will look exactly how I meant it to…)

deniseeliza
deniseeliza
5 years ago

Yay, it looks right! (Also by “much” I meant “muck”)

freemage
5 years ago

katz | February 23, 2015 at 1:45 pm

Wow, a gender discussion that doesn’t make me want to punch a wall!

Meanwhile offsite, I’m being splained beautifully. A dude is explaining to me that, when a female agent and I disagree about the personality of a character, we’re both mistaken and it’s actually a problem with the plot.

Yee gads. That’s just… blerg.

Funny thing–I’ve seen that 11th Congress photo (perhaps on this blog, even), cited as evidence of misandry, because the handful of women in it were permitted to wear outfits other than suits/ties.

Jarnsaxa
Jarnsaxa
5 years ago

I was so happy with Korrasami. They were so supportive of each other, I really felt like that was telegraphed well before the last season started. So darned cute together.

freemage
5 years ago

“In this blog” in my prior post should be understood to mean either some troll commenting, or some MRA David quoted, not something David himself wrote.

ParadoxicalIntention
5 years ago

Falconer | February 23, 2015 at 3:25 pm

Quest: Bring Madesi a blockquote mammoth tusk.

Be wary of the blockquote mammoth’s giant shepard.

brooked | February 23, 2015 at 3:38 pm

In, uh, honor of the 50 Shades movie’s success I’m going to enthusiastically plug Looney-Brain’s mocking of the novel. It was unfinished because the book was just too awful but what’s there is mighty funny. The infamous totes legal BDSM contract chapter is a high point and particularly hilarious.

http://lb-lee.livejournal.com/530725.html

If you’d like another, I always recommend the Das Sporking group. They did an excellent sporking of the Twilight series and two members, Gehayi and Ket Makura, managed to do all of the 50 Shades Trilogy (May the divines above have mercy on their souls, for no good soul deserves this torment) :

50 Shades of Grey: http://das-sporking.livejournal.com/242338.html

50 Shades Darker: http://das-sporking.livejournal.com/429533.html

50 Shades Freed: http://das-sporking.livejournal.com/874242.html

alaisvex
alaisvex
5 years ago

All these photographs show men as providers, which is exactly how women want them to be. The indoctrination starts early – women as primary nurturers raise their sons to be that way.

Oh! So, are you all planning to put women in charge of everything because being in charge is really being a provider and is real oppression?

sparky
sparky
5 years ago

alaisvex:

Oh! So, are you all planning to put women in charge of everything because being in charge is really being a provider and is real oppression?

Ha! Exactly.

All these photographs show men as providers, which is exactly how women want them to be. The indoctrination starts early – women as primary nurturers raise their sons to be that way.

Yeah, and if you put women in charge of everything, that would free men up to be the primary nurturers, so boys would no longer be in danger from “indoctrination” by women!

alaisvex
alaisvex
5 years ago

And sorry to LBT for the comment about them projecting their insecurities about their own hypothetical submissiveness. Once I got past the Schadenfreude aspect, I realized that it’s more likely that this can all be chalked up to their misogyny causing them to see women as sex objects rather than people. That attitude carries over into their memes so that even the women whom they’re showing, er, oppressing men still end up being sexualized.

alaisvex
alaisvex
5 years ago

@sparky:

Yeah, and if you put women in charge of everything, that would free men up to be the primary nurturers, so boys would no longer be in danger from “indoctrination” by women!

By gosh, by golly, we’ve solved sexism against men.

mrex
mrex
5 years ago

@Dvärghundspossen

Yes, I always forget and put a backslash in instead of a foward slash. Sorry for the unreadable blocks of text.

Let’s try this again…

Personally, I’m more annoyed about all the handwringing the moment a relationship between women goes beyond friendship. Avatar, for example.-Macha

Yeah, I agree, this is a much larger problem. Avatar is awesome because the gay relationship is cannon, not just in fandom. I never watched past the first season, finding out that a gay relationship is actually in the show puts it on the top of my list of things to see. There needs to be more representation in the shows themselves. Real, healthy relationships, not the writers adding sexual undertones to a relationship that they want to remain platonic to gay bait, or shit like that.

What I’m referring to is more how some fans will read gay subtext into literally any interaction between two women when there’s no chance of a cannon relationship. Every pair of friends, enemies, sisters, ect. automatically have to be romantically involved, because our patriarchial society wants women to cat fight, or fuck for the viewers pleasure, not form a strong, healthy, but platonic, relationship.

Yeah, the last two stock photos are weirdly sexualized for something that’s supposed to represent platonic friendship. I’m not going to argue with you whether calling them “lesbian” is fair or not, point is, they show sexualized activity in a situaltion where there should, by definition, be none. Whether the (presumably male) viewer is supposed to join in or just watch, it’s still society’s bullshit patriarchical fetishization of girls having sex together.

tcwill00
tcwill00
5 years ago

@ParadoxicalIntent: The mammoth has a giant Shepard?

tcwill00
tcwill00
5 years ago

@mrex: Not to make it All About The Menz, but fans invent gay sexual tension between male characters, too. The oldest, of course, is Holmes and Watson, but Kirk and Spock made it widespread.

I don’t see why Kirk/Spock has to be sexual, it’s still the most intense relationship on the damn ship, even platonic.

Dolores
Dolores
5 years ago

Lea: I didn’t think you were having fun I just realized that reading my explanation would probably be boring so I was like “I kind of wish I was an MRA shill because then I might be unintentionally hilarious and someone might enjoy reading this”

Buttercup Q. Skullpants: I am not denying that the photo looks like a session with a dominatrix, but I don’t think that’s what the photographers or MRAs intended for it to be (I don’t think it was supposed to be consensual) so I will not presume consent instead of assuming it’s intended to depict someone’s idea of ‘feminism’.

“I think it’s fair to point out the heavy reliance on BDSM imagery and ask what’s up with that.”

Yes absolutely! I agree with most of what you said, especially about how MRAs sexualize depictions of women unnecessarily and make photos of male oppression (that they think happens IRL) look like BDSM. But only one of the 2 photos of a woman stepping on a man was used by an MRA (or MRA group). The other is just a ridiculous stock photo for feminism. I just had a problem with David saying ( I think in response to both) “Apparently a lot of guys imagine feminism as some kind of session with a dominatrix. Never mind that in the real world, men getting trod upon on by women in high heels often pay quite handsomely for the experience.” Mostly the second sentence as the first one was just pointing out how the scene resembled consensual BDSM. I just felt saying some men pay for women to do what is happening in the photo was inappropriate as I have hopefully made clear by now. I do not expect you to agree I am just continuing to explain.

mrex: I realize that the photos of women stepping on men look like BDSM, but photos of women being tortured could also look like BDSM, therefore I find it sets a dangerous precedent to presume consent in situations like this. That is why I regard the photos as showing (staged) female-on-male assault EVEN THOUGH they resemble BDSM. Just because the photos look like a consensual BDSM activity, doesn’t mean that is what they are intended to represent. But yes I realize MRAs/TRPers (I think they’re technically different groups so I’m differentiating between them) shame males for being submissive.

“Us thinking that the man is consenting to having his face stepped on is an easy mistake to make considering that it is not easy to step on the face of someone who is physically larger than you without their consent.”

One of the photos of a woman stepping on a man is a stock photo for ‘feminism’ so even though it might be difficult for a woman (I’m a woman and I’ve never tried it but I don’t think it would be easy) to force a man onto the ground and step on him (while wearing heels and lingerie!) without his consent, I felt that the photos of women stepping on men were still intended to depict women oppressing men (maybe metaphorically? I don’t know.). They seem to think ‘feminism’ is ‘sadism’.

“Men don’t submit to having their faces stepped on without permission, women don’t have that kind of power, the MRA’s fantansy world doesn’t actually exist.”

I understand that. I’m not saying the world is anything like MRAs think it is. My point was simply that because I think the photos of women stepping on men were not intended to depict BDSM but instead oppression of men by women (or maybe just feminists?), it was inappropriate to bring up the fact that “in the real world, men getting trod upon on by women in high heels often pay quite handsomely for the experience”

That is all.