A couple of days ago, A Voice for Men posted the first half of what will evidently be a nine-zillion-word interview with none other than Roosh Valizadeh — you know, the far-right racist shithead who just semi-seriously proposed legalizing rape as a way, he says, to end it. Oh, and he also once admitted to raping a woman.
While AVFM is pretty hateful itself, some MRAs were a bit nonplussed to see a post on the most influential Men’s Rights site on the internet describing Roosh, who’s also repeatedly attacked the Men’s Rights movement, as “a layered, tempered and earnest guy, who truly wants to help other men in their most basic and primal of life goals; a deep thinker, a powerful communicator … I got nothing but respect for the guy.”
Over on the Men’s Rights subreddit, a couple of commenters raked AVFM and its Maximum Leader over the coals for opening his site up to a dude whose ideology is hard to distinguish from actual fascism. Lauzon, a feminism-hating subreddit regular, wrote:
Even as MRA’s take pains explaining to critics that the Men’s Rights Movement has nothing to do with Pick Up Artists, A Voice for Men has just published a fawning interview with Roosh V. …
For those unawares, Roosh is a far (FAR) right wing ideologue who considers gays “deviants,” rejects female suffrage, publishes articles advocating a return to monarchy, and is more or less openly misogynist.
I think it’s safe to say that the incompetent leadership at AVFM has just screwed the pooch. I defended Elam when he became the target of a smear campaign based on his personal life, but this is beyond the pale.
In a followup comment, he added:
I certainly won’t be donating to them again.
Well, that got Elam’s attention! Never one to take a threat to the flow of donations to him lightly, Elam posted a response on AVFM today.
Ignoring Roosh’s racism, homophobia, transphobia and open misogyny, Elam assured his readers that he, Paul Elam, knows how to make the ladies tingle without any of that PUA bullshit.
No, really.
As Elam tells it, his life became what Roosh might call a “Poosy Paradise” after he stopped being a “nice guy” to women.
The minute I figured out that my problem was not having a set of personal values strongly enough held that no woman could make me budge from them was the same minute I found a path to attract women, cull out the trash without drama or expense and to maintain a relationship with no pussy passes or princess bullshit. It is not that I never have to deal with that stuff from time to time, but I never, ever let it slide. My dick has not been the worse for it.
That’s right, folks: we’re getting an update live and direct from the ultimate authority on all things heterosexual: Paul Elam’s dick.
When I got to the point that I could look at woman in the eye and tell her I was not interested in being anyone’s knight in shining armor and that dinner with me meant finding your purse when the check came — and not give a single fuck about the women who could not handle it — I cleared the way for one who could.
Yep. Paul Elam would like the world to know that he has actually done the sex with a lady. And possibly even seen her naked.
This isn’t the first time Elam has celebrated his amazing ability to have sex with women without paying for dinner (or much of anything, apparently).
In a debate, of sorts, with a PUA going by the name Frost several years ago, Elam boasted that his non-dinner-buying approach to the ladies had “yielded a glut of butt” for him.
No, that’s a real quote. As is this
[D]oing what I did resulted in a whole slew of women lining up for summa dis. It was as easy as not giving a shit. I didn’t need lines or come on’s or a fucking book of tactics. All I needed to do was choose one if I liked her.
I’m apologize if any of you were reading this over breakfast.
But rest assured: Paul Elam’s penis is doing a-ok!
Pass the Brain Bleach, please.
Gee, Roosh, ya think?
I’m always amused at how fast Manhood Issues turns to racism. Wait’ll someone tells them that there’s not THAT much difference in size between a black schlong and a white one. ‘Course, even if penis size were not an issue, they’re still all “why’s she with that thug (meaning n-word), and not me? I’m a Nice Guy™!”
Gotta love how, even though he uses the words “openly hostile sentiments towards minorities,” he has to frame it as if black men were the ones with the problem. They’re the ones who are “detached,” and who see pro-white sentiments as “anti-black or even racist.”
That exchange was pretty much proof that this was a puffball interview. The interviewer was a black man and no doubt knew all the absurdly racist shit Roosh has said, yet the questions were soft and he accepted soft answers.
Paul’s point, if read in context, without Futtrelles obsfucations, was that personal integrity is a far better path to meeting desirable women than the psychological tricks employed by the likes of Roosh and Puas.
If you read what Paul wrote in it’s entirety, you will see that he and avfm maintain their distance from Roosh and Puas generally.
Criticising Elam or a Avfm for interviewing Roosh is disingenuous at best.
Roosh was also recently treated to a long interview by a feminist, which was featured on a feminist website. Does that mean feminism condones Roosh? Of course not. And it is equally absurd and dishonest to claim that Elam or Avfm does.
They refer to Roosh as a misogynist because his views on women and gays are detestable and entirely different than those espoused by Avfm and its followers. If your knowledge of this movement were based in reality and things they ACTUALLY SAY, rather than filtered through Futtrelles imagination and obfuscations, you would realize this.
Anti black or even racist? So, apparently Roosh believes there is a non racist form of anti blackness. Gee. I wonder why black men, even the misogynistic ones, don’t want to follow him?
Black men in the men’s human whites-I mean rights movement confuse me about as much as feMRAs.
This is the sort of thing ACTUALLY being said over at Avfm.
“If an interviewee offers ideas that are toxic, let those ideas be discussed and exposed as such. If the ideas offered are sound, to the extent they improve us let us incorporate them into our policy platforms or discussions. Second, intelligent criticism of the men’s human rights movement is always welcome in my book, regardless of the source. It’s how we get better, how we refine our views, and how we share information with people who don’t agree with us.”
I admire their openness to ideas and differences of opinions. Even ideas and opinions they disagree with, even from people who criticize them. That is true integrity.
And to be fair, here is a feminist also offering Roosh a platform http://animalnewyork.com/2015/monopoly-logic-feminist-artist-interviews-internets-infamous-misogynist/
At least black male MRAs are men, and the group they are part of isn’t defined by hatred of them. I find that a lot more understandable, especially since black men face real problems caused by their black-maleness; it isn’t hard to imagine that they can be tricked into thinking those issues are due to just being men, or tricked into believing MRAs give a damn about intersectionality.
feMRAs on the other hand… If feminists were as dedicated to man-hating as anti-feminists would have you think, I couldn’t possibly consider myself one even if I agreed with some of the politics. I just can’t fathom the self-loathing or self-deception required to consider yourself part of a group so clearly despises you.
I guess they all just pass my maximum confusion threshold.
Christopher Allman (not the guy with the kid, the other one) has tried to post a couple of comments defending Elam. He’s on moderation (for tediousness and overposting the last time he was here) but if anyone feels like arguing with him I can let the comments through. I won’t let him take over the thread.
😀
#yesallman
But, you know, whatever other peeps want.
Gotta admit, kind of curious to see the mental acrobatics Allman’s using.
I’m fine with letting them through. He can always be put back on moderation if he gets too tedious.
I’m in the mood to whack a troll piñata, if everyone else is. I say let him through.
This should be good…
Re: inviting out parents;
I either make the plans in a way that the kids can tag along (ie. getting takeout so that we can eat with the kids if need be), or I make my plans super open ended; ie. “Hey, I was wondering if you wanted to , what day would be good for you and all.”
Babysitting is expensive enough that I think it would pressure most people into feeling like they “owe” me if I paid for it. It sort of like the jerky
Okey dokey, I let his comments through, and I’ll keep doing so unless/until they get too tiresome.That is, assuming my screwy internet connection doesn’t give up on me entirely. (BRB, restarting router.)
@Allmen:
The existence of an interview doesn’t determine if the interviewer condones the interviewee, the content does. It’s pretty obvious even from the link you posted that the feminist does not condone Roosh. Likewise, it’s pretty easy to see AVFM does.
Compare:
Blockquote monster nooo! Oh well, enjoy your meal.
But, what if Futtrelles [sic] imagination and obfuscations consist of word-for-word quotes of things they ACTUALLY SAY? What then?
Roosh is probably more anti-gay and racist than the bigger voices on AVFM, but his views of women are hardly much different.
Nobody is saying that the mere act of interviewing Roosh amounts to endorsing him. But Elam complimented him by calling him a deep thinker who he’s got nothing but respect for.
Also, Elam was espousing the view that you’ll get laid if you are a jerk to women. That is precisely what PUAs say.
As I said earlier, people conflate MRA and PUA because you guys have identical views on women, feminism, and rape.
*It’s sort of like the jerky people who give you a $100 gift at XMAS and force you to spend way over your budget on them so that things will be “even”.
Let me also point out that the “gift with strings attached” is a favorite tactic of manipulative men everywhere. Social ettiquete says that things/gifts should be “equel” between people, and after being bitten in the ass a few too many times by large “gifts”, I’m *very* wary of *anyone* who wants to place themselves me in their debt with a “gift” whether they mean to or not.
Like it or not, money is social power!
With that in mind, any guy or gal who has some controlling hang-up about who pays for a date, whether they insist on paying for everything or insist on paying for only half, gets red flagged in my book as a financial controller. Relationship finances require flexibility, open communication, and a willingness to compromise on the part of both parties. I’ve been in one financially abusive relationship and it’s ruined my personal finances for years to come. I’m never going through that shit again.
So, Christopher, give me a specific instance of David’s misrepresentations of things Elam or others in the manosphere has said. Otherwise this is just you asserting something as if we have to accept it as fact again.
*I’m very wary of anyone who wants to place me in their debt.
Not “themselves me”. ><