A couple of days ago, A Voice for Men posted the first half of what will evidently be a nine-zillion-word interview with none other than Roosh Valizadeh — you know, the far-right racist shithead who just semi-seriously proposed legalizing rape as a way, he says, to end it. Oh, and he also once admitted to raping a woman.
While AVFM is pretty hateful itself, some MRAs were a bit nonplussed to see a post on the most influential Men’s Rights site on the internet describing Roosh, who’s also repeatedly attacked the Men’s Rights movement, as “a layered, tempered and earnest guy, who truly wants to help other men in their most basic and primal of life goals; a deep thinker, a powerful communicator … I got nothing but respect for the guy.”
Over on the Men’s Rights subreddit, a couple of commenters raked AVFM and its Maximum Leader over the coals for opening his site up to a dude whose ideology is hard to distinguish from actual fascism. Lauzon, a feminism-hating subreddit regular, wrote:
Even as MRA’s take pains explaining to critics that the Men’s Rights Movement has nothing to do with Pick Up Artists, A Voice for Men has just published a fawning interview with Roosh V. …
For those unawares, Roosh is a far (FAR) right wing ideologue who considers gays “deviants,” rejects female suffrage, publishes articles advocating a return to monarchy, and is more or less openly misogynist.
I think it’s safe to say that the incompetent leadership at AVFM has just screwed the pooch. I defended Elam when he became the target of a smear campaign based on his personal life, but this is beyond the pale.
In a followup comment, he added:
I certainly won’t be donating to them again.
Well, that got Elam’s attention! Never one to take a threat to the flow of donations to him lightly, Elam posted a response on AVFM today.
Ignoring Roosh’s racism, homophobia, transphobia and open misogyny, Elam assured his readers that he, Paul Elam, knows how to make the ladies tingle without any of that PUA bullshit.
No, really.
As Elam tells it, his life became what Roosh might call a “Poosy Paradise” after he stopped being a “nice guy” to women.
The minute I figured out that my problem was not having a set of personal values strongly enough held that no woman could make me budge from them was the same minute I found a path to attract women, cull out the trash without drama or expense and to maintain a relationship with no pussy passes or princess bullshit. It is not that I never have to deal with that stuff from time to time, but I never, ever let it slide. My dick has not been the worse for it.
That’s right, folks: we’re getting an update live and direct from the ultimate authority on all things heterosexual: Paul Elam’s dick.
When I got to the point that I could look at woman in the eye and tell her I was not interested in being anyone’s knight in shining armor and that dinner with me meant finding your purse when the check came — and not give a single fuck about the women who could not handle it — I cleared the way for one who could.
Yep. Paul Elam would like the world to know that he has actually done the sex with a lady. And possibly even seen her naked.
This isn’t the first time Elam has celebrated his amazing ability to have sex with women without paying for dinner (or much of anything, apparently).
In a debate, of sorts, with a PUA going by the name Frost several years ago, Elam boasted that his non-dinner-buying approach to the ladies had “yielded a glut of butt” for him.
No, that’s a real quote. As is this
[D]oing what I did resulted in a whole slew of women lining up for summa dis. It was as easy as not giving a shit. I didn’t need lines or come on’s or a fucking book of tactics. All I needed to do was choose one if I liked her.
I’m apologize if any of you were reading this over breakfast.
But rest assured: Paul Elam’s penis is doing a-ok!
I’m baffled as to why they’re calling Roosh a misogynist, and as if it’s a bad thing. I know self awareness is a huge struggle for them but, seriously?!
“maintain a relationship”
That doesn’t sound like the Paul Elam I’ve been reading about.
“I don’t care who I hurt or how toxic my ideology is as long as my boner is happy” is the what the philosophy of the entire manosphere.
Sorry MRAs, people mix you up with PUA for a reason. It’s because you have identical opinions and attitudes. It’s like the difference between the Bloods and Crips. They may dislike each other, but they’re both gangs.
I just threw up in my mouth a little.
This paying for dinner thing … With me it’s always been that if *I* ask somebody out and pick a place, I’ll pay for it. If he invites, he’ll usually pay for it. If it’s a person I’ve gone to multiple dates with, I’d pay once and he’d pay the next (it’s a general idea, not counting whose line it is and how much the whole thing costs). I also don’t mind paying for my half if that’s the arrangement. This all goes without saying or with minimal small talk.
But I would find it extremely off-putting if the first thing I was told by a guy before going on a date was “you’re paying” or “you’re paying your own lunch”. That just means the guy seriously has some either trust or money (or obviously: women) issues that I don’t wish to explore.
It’s pretty bad when misters are calling you a misogynist.
So, Elam thought the best response to criticism about posting an interview with a guy that even his own readers seem to think is a vile asshole is a boner update? That seems completely unrelated. My irrational ladybrains must not be able to handle all that manly-man alpha logic.
And that poor little dancing kitty in the picture up top does not deserve to be breathing in Elam’s fake cigar smoke.
Since Doosh is basically a guy that has dedicated his life to training himself to be a manipulative bastard, I’d find it hilarious if he basically “gamed” Elam and pretended to come off reasonable.
But hang on… didn’t Elam used to look down on Roosh, and be envious of his higher website traffic or something?
Well shoot. Guess I’m gonna have to go laugh my ass of again. Brb.
I want to think there are MRAs with good intentions who just gloss over how awful their movement, particularly its leaders and most popular opinions, is.
I wish there was some way to reach them, and tell them about the history of gender equality vis a vis feminism, without their leaders coming in to yell about how it was the worst thing ever.
Somehow Paul’s whole “defense” reminded me of this:
I have taken guys out in the past, including some that wouldn’t go out if they had to pay at all – I didn’t ask if they were poor or cheap, for a casual date it didn’t matter. But if one bragged that not paying scored him points or was some sort of statement, he’d have gone home alone and still hungry.
The hypocrisy shown by MRAs is astounding. They must have a particular disdain for reality because the reality is that these people are misogynists; but of course it is in their best interest to keep this fact out of the public’s view and continue to claim that they are not a hate group.
Wha’dya wanna bet ol’ Mr. V(omit) made a friendly “donation” to the cause just before Pauly got the idea for the interview?
@yutolia Darn, I was just coming over here to post that same skit, and you beat me to it. The punchline describes these guys perfectly.
The general etiquette rule is: whoever invites, pays. If the invitee volunteers to pay their own way, great, but it’s rude to state that as an expectation up front. Because then it shifts things away from “hey, I’m doing this fun thing and would love your company” to “hey, I’m doing this fun thing but you’ll have to pay for the privilege of doing it with me”. It puts people in the awkward position of having to decline due to finances. If they don’t want to state that as the true reason, then it can lead to misunderstandings.
As far as I can see there really isn’t much difference between Elam and PUAs, other than the number of silly hats and idiotic terminology. Both are fueled by the same arrogance, insecurity, revenge fantasies, and obsessive bean-counting of their Masculinity Points™. Both have no idea how real human relationships work. (In marriage, like in golf, a high score is bad. They seem to think it’s more like bowling.)
I only follow people who are somewhat misogynist!
All I could think about was this quote from Blade Trinity:
Though, admittedly, Elam sounds more like:
AVFM reader: “I have valid criticism about allying the Men’s Rights Movement with a racist PUA and the implications thereof.”
Elam: “It’s fine, I mean it’s not like I’m asking him for pointers on how to get sex.”
Way to miss the point, Paulie, in a way that comes across as obviously defensive and insecure of your sexual prowess.
I’m staggered at Lauzon’s criticism of Roosh being (FAR) right wing, homophobic, rejecting female suffrage and “more or less openly misogynist” – as if AVFM isn’t all of those things. Or is his criticism just that Roosh is too overtly bigoted?
Maybe he’s fine with that crap as long as it isn’t obvious enough to draw negative attention to the movement. Because it gives the MRM less plausible deniability to weasel around in.
That’s nice, Paulie.
>files that under Fiction<
All these conflicting messages from the MRA’s! Are gay men considered men or not? Is it possible for a woman to rape a man or not? What about black men, are they considered men? I can’t follow this shit. :/
If he doesn’t need lines or come ons or a fucking book of tactics, where is his interest in Roosh? I’m missing the connection.
And if a misogynist thinks you’re too much of a misogynist, that’s pretty fucking bad.
Exactly, dh – is it OK for women to vote or not? Are women human or not? Do men have emotions or not? Are they allowed to have them or not? Are Asian men considered men? So much confusion…
This is fantastic news. For so long these MRA’s have tried to differentiate themselves from Gamers/PUA as well as pretend they’re not misogynists nor right wing. Now his majesty is making bed with theme? Lol. The only way the MRA is going to get into the mainstream is if its piggybacking on conservatism as it’s the only saddle they can get. But doing so firmly embeds them on the right and bury’s them as quick as it did for The Promisekeepers. What never heard of them? My point exactly.
Elam’s looking more and more like Charles Manson every day. Fortunately he has none of the other man’s charisma.
I think it’s a kind of double-speak common to racists who associate with racists* but will swear up and down that they are not racists, and disavow any affiliation with said racists* when those racists* come out with something so overtly racist that they can’t even deny that they’re being racist. (See UKIP). I mean, there isn’t a cigarette paper between either group of racists, but they like to pretend there is in order to pretend that they are respectable.
Asterisks for readability.
I’m not great at Latin, but I think summa dis would be a comprehensive treatise on hell. So I guess Paulie likes women who are into the Divine Comedy? Lasciate ogni speranza, voi ch’entrate, ladies.
Nothing screams sexual insecurity like bragging about how much sex you’ve had in your lifetime. You can get away with that kind of immaturity when you’re in college, maybe, but after 25 or so it’s honestly kind of sad. It’s like how making a big show of machismo and looking for fights always screams fragile ego (not really related, but for some reason I couldn’t help but think of this Onion article from yesterday when reading this http://www.theonion.com/articles/how-about-we-go-outside-and-settle-this-like-emoti,38033/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_campaign=LinkPreview:1:Default)
I seem to recall Paul tried to deflect his ex-wife’s accusations that he was a layabout, an alcohol abuser, and an all-around asshole who accused her of adultery when she told him she was raped by calling her “promiscuous.” Yet somehow, I don’t think we’ll see any MRAs or PUAs accusing Paulie of “riding the c*nt carousel” any time soon.