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Pickup guru Roosh V: End rape by making it legal

Roosh V: End rape by legalizing it
Roosh V: End rape by legalizing it

“Game” guru Roosh Valizadeh is tired of hearing that “men can stop rape.”

As far as he’s concerned, the problem isn’t men — who already know that rape is bad. No, it’s women.

Looking back on his own life, he wrote in a blog post yesterday (archived here),

I saw women wholly unconcerned with their own safety and the character of men they developed intimate relationships with. I saw women who voluntarily numbed themselves with alcohol and other drugs in social settings before letting the direction of the night’s wind determine who they would follow into a private room. I saw women who, once feeling awkward, sad, or guilty for a sexual encounter they didn’t fully remember, call upon an authority figure to resolve the problem by locking up her previous night’s lover in prison or ejecting him from school.

Evidently, in Roosh”s view, women are at fault when they enter a bedroom with the wrong man, but men aren’t at fault for being this wrong man. It’s a convenient argument for Roosh, who by all accounts including his own is one of these wrong men. Indeed, in his e-book Bang Iceland he admitted, rather nonchalantly, that he once raped a woman who was too drunk to consent.  As he described the events of that evening:

While walking to my place, I realized how drunk she was. In America, having sex with her would have been rape, since she legally couldn’t give her consent. It didn’t help matters that I was relatively sober, but I can’t say I cared or even hesitated. I won’t rationalize my actions, but having sex is what I do.

Now back to the rapist’s proposal to end rape:

By attempting to teach men not to rape, what we have actually done is teach women not to care about being raped, not to protect themselves from easily preventable acts, and not to take responsibility for their actions. At the same time, we don’t hesitate to blame men for bad things that happen to them (if right now you walked into a dangerous ghetto and got robbed, you would be called an idiot and no one would say “teach ghetto kids not to steal”).

I’m pretty sure that we already do teach “ghetto kids” — and non-“ghetto” kids — not to steal. And we put adults in prison for it.

It was obvious to me that the advice of our esteemed establishment writers and critics wasn’t stopping the problem, and since rape was already on the law books with severe penalties, additional laws or flyers posted on dormitory doors won’t stop this rape culture either.

Well, it didn’t stop Roosh. But it does stop others. While still horrifyingly common, rape rates have dropped considerably over the past several decades, helped by laws like VAWA and the sort of rape awareness campaigns that MRAs and other misogynists have always railed against.

But never mind, because Roosh has figured out what he thinks is a much better solution:

make rape legal if done on private property. I propose that we make the violent taking of a woman not punishable by law when done off public grounds.

What!?

While Roosh thinks that “those seedy and deranged men who randomly select their rape victims on alleys and jogging trails” should still be jailed, if only to keep them off the street, he argues that “on private property, any and all rape that happens should be completely legal.”So how would this, er, solution end rape?

If rape becomes legal under my proposal, a girl will protect her body in the same manner that she protects her purse and smartphone.

Apparently in Roosh’s imaginary world, women are more concerned about the well-being of their iPhones than their own bodily integrity.

If rape becomes legal, a girl will not enter an impaired state of mind where she can’t resist being dragged off to a bedroom with a man who she is unsure of—she’ll scream, yell, or kick at his attempt while bystanders are still around. If rape becomes legal, she will never be unchaperoned with a man she doesn’t want to sleep with.

I was going to ask “what if her ‘chaperone’ decides to rape her,” but there’s no point in trying to address any of Roosh’s argument here logically.

After several months of advertising this law throughout the land, rape would be virtually eliminated on the first day it is applied.

Uh, how?

Without daddy government to protect her, a girl would absolutely not enter a private room with a man she doesn’t know or trust unless she is absolutely sure she is ready to sleep with him. Consent is now achieved when she passes underneath the room’s door frame, because she knows that that man can legally do anything he wants to her when it comes to sex.

Roosh seems to think that rape only happens when drunk women invite strangers wearing “I HEART Raping Women” t-shirts into their apartments. In fact, as RAINN points out, only about a quarter of all rapists are strangers. Roughly 40% are friends or acquaintances; another 30% are in a relationship with the victim, and 7% are family members. In other words, most rapes are committed by people that the victim knows and trusts.

Bad encounters are sure to occur, but these can be learning experiences for the poorly trained woman so she can better identify in the future the type of good man who will treat her like the delicate flower that she believes she is. After only one such sour experience, she will actually want to get fully acquainted with a man for longer than two hours—perhaps even demanding to meet his parents—instead of letting a beer chug prevent her from making the correct decisions to protect her body.

I don’t even know what to say to this. It’s not just that Roosh seems almost inhuman in his utter lack of empathy. It’s that the women he has the most contempt for are the very women he targets as a “pickup artist,” women at bars who are open to the possibility of casual sex.

Because women will never enter a man’s apartment without accepting that sex will happen, he can escort her to his bedroom and romantically consummate a relationship after it was certain he proved himself to be a good and decent man the woman fully trusted.

Does Roosh actually think he comes even remotely close to being a good man who is worthy of any woman’s trust?

It turns out that we don’t need more laws, policies, and university propaganda that treat every man like a criminal and every woman like a mild retardate—we need more common sense that can only come from making rape legal.

Yes, dear reader, you did just read a sentence in which the idea of making rape legal is described as “common sense.”

Such a change will provide a mature jolt to American women who have been babied for too long, who are protected and coddled as if they have no agency or intellect of their own. If a woman is indeed a child then maybe we really need to keep promoting “rape culture” as a way to keep them safe, but if they are actual adults, which is often claimed, then we can start treating them like adults by allowing them to take responsibility for the things that happen to them which are easily preventable with barely a strain of cognitive thought, awareness, and self control.

Huh. Earlier, Roosh compared rape to property theft. If the two are analogous, why isn’t Roosh advocating that we get rid of the laws that make theft illegal. By Roosh’s logic, don’t laws against theft “coddle” property owners and deny them “agency and intellect?”

Let’s make rape legal. Less women will be raped because they won’t voluntarily drug themselves with booze and follow a strange man into a bedroom, and less men will be unfairly jailed for what was anything but a maniacal alley rape. Until then, this devastating rape culture will continue, and women who we treat as children will continue to act like children.

Roosh seems a little confused as to who is acting like a child here.

So is Roosh being facetious here? Is this just a Swiftian “Modest Proposal?”

Certainly, Roosh is being deliberately provocative — no doubt hoping to generate as many pageviews as possible from whatever controversy ensues.

And I’m fairly certain that he is not altogether serious about his proposal, which would effectively mean that no woman would ever go home with him or any of his readers ever again.

But I don’t see a Swiftian satire here.  Roosh’s “argument” here, such as it is, repeats “arguments” he’s made in earnest many times before. He may be taking these arguments to their logical extreme, but he doesn’t seem to be doing so in an attempt to refute them. He clearly doesn’t give a shit about actually preventing rape. His absurdist “proposal” seems mostly to be an excuse to express his contempt for feminists and his hatred of women in general.

Roosh’s fans, for the most part, don’t seem to see the post as satire. Some echo his contemptuous attacks on women.

atlantaOthers second his Men’s Rightsy attack on feminism as something that “infantalizes” women.

shangiA few bring up the name of Jonathan Swift.  LoftBoy thinks Roosh’s proposal is “rediculous” enough to be satire, but thinks it just might work.

loftBut the smartest take on the satire question comes from a commenter who is no fan of Roosh.

rabzee

 

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Lea
Lea
9 years ago

I don;t think idiot or stupid are slurs. I think it is entirely fair to say that a person who continuously shows poor reasoning in their arguments stupid.

But I’ll try to stay away from them.

Dawson,

You came to a blog where the thread is about a man who wants the rape of women to be legal to teach us to be more afraid of sexual torture and thus more timid, in a constant state of fear and virulence to try to score a “gotcha”?

Could you be more awful?

No, telling you she was not married was not rape. If it were a a good deal of married men or formerly married men would be rapists.

However, if you were too drunk to consent to sex, you were raped and I’m very sorry.

Buttercup Q. Skullpants
Buttercup Q. Skullpants
9 years ago

@sunnysombrera “Coerced”, maybe?

@Dudley Like sunnysombrera and kirbywarp said, you’re focusing on one very narrow scenario and assuming that it represents the majority of rapes. Women are raped regardless of whether they’re wearing a miniskirt or jeans and a parka, in broad daylight or at night, in bad neighborhoods or ritzy suburbs, drunk or sober, in strange alleys or in their own houses, whether they’ve had martial arts training or can’t lift a five-pound sack of flour. There is no predictable pattern to it such that you can take steps to appreciably diminish the background risk.

Also, your #3 scenario isn’t rape, because both parties were mutually consenting at the time. You’re confusing “in possession of full mental faculties” with “in possession of all the information”.

Dorothy
Dorothy
9 years ago

Actually it reminds me about Polish Catholic priests who claim that it is not a sin to rape a women if only it leads to the creation of a new life.

weirwoodtreehugger
9 years ago

There’s a difference between drunk and too drunk to consent. When people are charged with the rape of an intoxicated person, it’s because they were passed out or close to it. If you are still able to say yes and actively participate in sex, that’s not rape. If it’s ever unclear whether or not someone is able to consent, assume they can’t. It’s better to miss an opportunity to get laid than it is to be a rapist.

Dudley, I challenge you to find even one case of a man being convicted of rape for having sex with a woman who had a few drinks but was still sober enough to know what she was doing.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
9 years ago

I don’t use “idiot” or the like just through personal preference, mostly shaped by my time on r/shitredditsays. I think you can find plenty of other ways to mock things, and that the people we mock here are almost never truly unintelligent. But hey, it’s not against the rules and I’m not going to be upset with anyone who does do it.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
9 years ago

@weirwoodtreehugger:

If you are still able to say yes and actively participate in sex, that’s not rape.

That’s a bit of a tough standard because people can be drunk to the point of not remembering anything or retaining judgement and still say the word “yes” and go through the motions. I agree that the line for when you should not consider a “yes” consent is past simply being buzzed, but I think it comes quite a bit before losing the ability to say the word.

That’s the thing, though… as much as people try to muddy the waters by trying to get feminists to nail down exactly where that line is, like you said most cases are pretty clear-cut.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
9 years ago

Blech. Consent, while it does have legal ramifications, is not meant to be a strictly legal deal. The entire damn point is that you want to be entirely sure that everyone participating in sex actually wants to. Trying to avoid raping someone shouldn’t be about trying to avoid legal consequences, it should be about making sure you and your partner are comfortable and enthusiastic participants.

Rape means quite a number of things for the victim, but for the rapist it means they are having sex with someone who doesn’t want to. If that isn’t your goal (in which case go directly to jail do not pass Go), why aren’t you interested in doing everything you can to make sure that isn’t the case?

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
9 years ago

MRAs talk constantly about how awful it is that rape is being defined as “having regrets potentially months after the event,” which is absolute bullshit, but think about that for a second. If you wake up in the morning next to your partner from the night before and your first reaction is regret that sex ever happened, that’s not a great thing. Wouldn’t it be better to have an attitude and an approach to sex where that situation was very unlikely to occur?

PUAs don’t care about their partners, they care only about getting their dicks wet. The only reason they even think about their partners is either because they want to be banging the hot chick or because they want some guarantee of future sex in case they can’t rope in more victims. It’s completely unsurprising that so many of them are rapists; they couldn’t care less if their partner collapsed in a mess of tears the day after as long as they don’t get arrested or bothered, and the potential pool of sex partners is much bigger if you include the unwilling.

And then they have the gall to come up with vague and fuzzy hypotheticals whenever someone tries to point out how clearly wrong and evil their actions are, as if they were living on the razor’s edge of acceptability rather than diving headlong into rape culture.

Fuck those assholes.

Bina
Bina
9 years ago

Consent, while it does have legal ramifications, is not meant to be a strictly legal deal. The entire damn point is that you want to be entirely sure that everyone participating in sex actually wants to. Trying to avoid raping someone shouldn’t be about trying to avoid legal consequences, it should be about making sure you and your partner are comfortable and enthusiastic participants.

Bingo. And Roosh doesn’t care if women are comfortable with or enthusiastic about him. There’s enough shit of his on this site to make that abundantly clear. ROOSH DOES NOT CARE WHAT WOMEN WANT. Roosh is determined to get laid any way he can, and gets pissy when he can’t. It’s pretty obvious to me that he wasn’t kidding or offering a hypothetical, he really does want rape to be legal so he can do what he wants without fear of consequences. If that’s not a rapist’s mentality, I don’t know what is.

Meteor Blades
Meteor Blades
9 years ago

@sunnysombrera: He can’t go back to the sewer. It ejected him.

NicolaLuna
NicolaLuna
9 years ago

@Dudley

considering most rapes are carried out by friends, family or partners rather than strangers, considering women in burkhas get raped, considering children and men get raped too, how dare you come here and victim blame?!

You are absolutely full of shit.

Rope Wolf
Rope Wolf
9 years ago

How about you Neanderthals think of it this way–control your animalistic tendencies by getting consent. If none given, then be GENTLEMEN and pretend this woman before you could be your mother, sister, female relative or someone you care about in this situation.

1kingofkings
9 years ago

Lol I like your reply, but what happens if he tries to continue this as he ages? he just becomes the old pervert. Maybe, he’ll start making a pick up books for the middle-aged to the old man. Sad sack of a human… If you can even call him that. Haha.

Mo
Mo
9 years ago

I would LOVE nothing more than to meet this guy and play into his pick up act. I would love to discuss his “totally brilliant” views on women and post-feminism, men’s rights, etc. Contribute my own supporting arguments. Compliment, agree, laugh, eyelash flutter, drink up. Seduce him back to his place. Get busy. Take off his pants, breathlessly compliment his cock, give him the best blowjob of his life, and just as the post-cum-self-loathing sets in: slink back up next to him, gaze into his eyes, and spit his jizz right into them.

Would laugh as I was putting my underwear on and call him a pathetic piece of shit.
“Now THAT is what I call equality, motherfucker.” Exit.

femlines
9 years ago

men get raped too… I’d like to hear him acknowledge that and still support this…

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
9 years ago

Nope, nope, nope. This is me popping back in long enough to drop a bucket of NOPE on the floor before scurrying back out. Because NOPE!

somedude
somedude
9 years ago

@mo please don’t. This motherfucker doesn’t deserve a blowjob, he deserves to be involuntarily celibate for the rest of his life.

Catalpa
Catalpa
9 years ago

I do find it interesting how these guys are like “Women shouldn’t drink/wear revealing clothes/enter the same room alone with a man/ever venture outside their homes if they don’t want to be ‘raped’!! They need to take responsibility for their actions!”, but at the same time whine about how HARD it is to obtain consent, how women they sleep with might just turn around and accuse them of rape for no good reason!

Like, dudes, if you’re all about personal responsibility, maybe you should also be taking appropriate precautions to prevent yourself from being accused of rape. Like, say, not having sex with someone who is too drunk to consent, or drunk enough that you’re not sure if they’ll be totally down with what happened when they wake up in the morning?

Oh, wait, I forgot. These fuckers don’t give a single shit about “personal responsibility”, All they want is for women to take all the responsibility for everything ever, while they get to get all the credit and privilege.

Jenny (@dontgiveah00t)

You hit the nail on the head, catalpa. For some people, ‘personal responsibility’ really means ‘you need to take responsibility for my actions because I don’t want to’.

emilygoddess - MOD
emilygoddess - MOD
9 years ago

Was there anything original in Dudley’s teal deer? ‘Cause it looked like the same old shit we’ve heard 2734690863 times, presented by someone who thinks he’s blowing our minds and looks that much dumber for it.

Ryan Sample
9 years ago

It’s official.
Roosh V just officially cheapened the Holocaust.

McJulie McGalliard (@mcjulie)

This thread is stale, but I still wanted to drop a couple of observations.

I believe in actual personal responsibility, but have come to distrust the phrase “personal responsibility” as almost inevitably code for victim-blaming.

@Dudley — It’s interesting that you cite the Emily Yoffe piece, because I think her essay is an excellent example of something one of the other commenters mentioned, how the Rooshes of the world make transparent common misogyny narratives that are usually a little more obscured. You are correct that Emily Yoffe’s piece makes exactly Roosh’s point, and is a bit less ridiculous about it, which makes her all the more dangerous.

Roosh is not only vile, but he makes no logical sense. His recommendation — which as some have pointed out is already being tried in Saudi Arabia, and no, it does not end rape, are you kidding — is entirely at odds with his role as “pickup artist” which absolutely depends on women going out on their own, getting drunk, and sometimes taking risks and doing things against their better judgment. So his “ideal” world is also the exact opposite of his his ideal world.

Yoffe’s recommendation is at least INTERNALLY consistent. She wants college women to remain sober. Arguing for sobriety on its own terms wouldn’t be a problem, but she engages in the patriarchal tradition of threatening rape if women don’t comply. She also ties it to some vague notion that if women keep themselves pure, their purity will somehow inspire similar purity in college men.

She’s arguing for sober purity, not sexual purity, but it’s still very similar to the arguments in Saudi Arabia and other extreme religious patriarchies — that women are burdened with keeping themselves pure, because that is how men are kept pure. But of course, when that fails, only women typically pay the price.

Rape is better prevented by more female autonomy, not less. The more dependent on men women are, the more easily they can be victimized by them. Patriarchal society can’t protect us from the threat of rape. Patriarchal society IS the threat.

LBT
LBT
9 years ago

Skipping Dudley’s comments. I’m sure I’ve heard them all before.

Good to know that the child-molesters in my family would be totally legal in Roosh’s fantasy world. After all, at least they had the decency to rape children at home, on private property!

zarathustratheserpent
9 years ago

“So Roosh is proposing a system akin to fundamentalist Islam.”

And these guys fancy themselves to be free-thinking atheists. >< The stupid. It burns.

alaisvex
alaisvex
9 years ago

I also have to call bullshit on Emily Yoffe’s claims that colleges aren’t telling students not to drink hard enough. The messages about risks associated with alcohol (including becoming more vulnerable to rape) are all over the place, For example, my undergrad university made all sports clubs attend a mandatory seminar on avoiding the abuse of alcohol and helping friends who’d been drinking to assure that they wouldn’t get alcohol poisoning was taught by one of the health center’s experts on the subject and was twice as long as the mandatory seminar on sexual assault and consent, which was taught by a group of students who didn’t know what they were doing, weren’t prepared, and engaged in lots of accidental victim blaming. And this was just last year, which was, incidentally, the first year that the sexual assault seminar was even mandatory. That should speak volumes about where colleges’ priorities already are.