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Pickup guru Roosh V: End rape by making it legal

Roosh V: End rape by legalizing it
Roosh V: End rape by legalizing it

“Game” guru Roosh Valizadeh is tired of hearing that “men can stop rape.”

As far as he’s concerned, the problem isn’t men — who already know that rape is bad. No, it’s women.

Looking back on his own life, he wrote in a blog post yesterday (archived here),

I saw women wholly unconcerned with their own safety and the character of men they developed intimate relationships with. I saw women who voluntarily numbed themselves with alcohol and other drugs in social settings before letting the direction of the night’s wind determine who they would follow into a private room. I saw women who, once feeling awkward, sad, or guilty for a sexual encounter they didn’t fully remember, call upon an authority figure to resolve the problem by locking up her previous night’s lover in prison or ejecting him from school.

Evidently, in Roosh”s view, women are at fault when they enter a bedroom with the wrong man, but men aren’t at fault for being this wrong man. It’s a convenient argument for Roosh, who by all accounts including his own is one of these wrong men. Indeed, in his e-book Bang Iceland he admitted, rather nonchalantly, that he once raped a woman who was too drunk to consent.  As he described the events of that evening:

While walking to my place, I realized how drunk she was. In America, having sex with her would have been rape, since she legally couldn’t give her consent. It didn’t help matters that I was relatively sober, but I can’t say I cared or even hesitated. I won’t rationalize my actions, but having sex is what I do.

Now back to the rapist’s proposal to end rape:

By attempting to teach men not to rape, what we have actually done is teach women not to care about being raped, not to protect themselves from easily preventable acts, and not to take responsibility for their actions. At the same time, we don’t hesitate to blame men for bad things that happen to them (if right now you walked into a dangerous ghetto and got robbed, you would be called an idiot and no one would say “teach ghetto kids not to steal”).

I’m pretty sure that we already do teach “ghetto kids” — and non-“ghetto” kids — not to steal. And we put adults in prison for it.

It was obvious to me that the advice of our esteemed establishment writers and critics wasn’t stopping the problem, and since rape was already on the law books with severe penalties, additional laws or flyers posted on dormitory doors won’t stop this rape culture either.

Well, it didn’t stop Roosh. But it does stop others. While still horrifyingly common, rape rates have dropped considerably over the past several decades, helped by laws like VAWA and the sort of rape awareness campaigns that MRAs and other misogynists have always railed against.

But never mind, because Roosh has figured out what he thinks is a much better solution:

make rape legal if done on private property. I propose that we make the violent taking of a woman not punishable by law when done off public grounds.

What!?

While Roosh thinks that “those seedy and deranged men who randomly select their rape victims on alleys and jogging trails” should still be jailed, if only to keep them off the street, he argues that “on private property, any and all rape that happens should be completely legal.”So how would this, er, solution end rape?

If rape becomes legal under my proposal, a girl will protect her body in the same manner that she protects her purse and smartphone.

Apparently in Roosh’s imaginary world, women are more concerned about the well-being of their iPhones than their own bodily integrity.

If rape becomes legal, a girl will not enter an impaired state of mind where she can’t resist being dragged off to a bedroom with a man who she is unsure of—she’ll scream, yell, or kick at his attempt while bystanders are still around. If rape becomes legal, she will never be unchaperoned with a man she doesn’t want to sleep with.

I was going to ask “what if her ‘chaperone’ decides to rape her,” but there’s no point in trying to address any of Roosh’s argument here logically.

After several months of advertising this law throughout the land, rape would be virtually eliminated on the first day it is applied.

Uh, how?

Without daddy government to protect her, a girl would absolutely not enter a private room with a man she doesn’t know or trust unless she is absolutely sure she is ready to sleep with him. Consent is now achieved when she passes underneath the room’s door frame, because she knows that that man can legally do anything he wants to her when it comes to sex.

Roosh seems to think that rape only happens when drunk women invite strangers wearing “I HEART Raping Women” t-shirts into their apartments. In fact, as RAINN points out, only about a quarter of all rapists are strangers. Roughly 40% are friends or acquaintances; another 30% are in a relationship with the victim, and 7% are family members. In other words, most rapes are committed by people that the victim knows and trusts.

Bad encounters are sure to occur, but these can be learning experiences for the poorly trained woman so she can better identify in the future the type of good man who will treat her like the delicate flower that she believes she is. After only one such sour experience, she will actually want to get fully acquainted with a man for longer than two hours—perhaps even demanding to meet his parents—instead of letting a beer chug prevent her from making the correct decisions to protect her body.

I don’t even know what to say to this. It’s not just that Roosh seems almost inhuman in his utter lack of empathy. It’s that the women he has the most contempt for are the very women he targets as a “pickup artist,” women at bars who are open to the possibility of casual sex.

Because women will never enter a man’s apartment without accepting that sex will happen, he can escort her to his bedroom and romantically consummate a relationship after it was certain he proved himself to be a good and decent man the woman fully trusted.

Does Roosh actually think he comes even remotely close to being a good man who is worthy of any woman’s trust?

It turns out that we don’t need more laws, policies, and university propaganda that treat every man like a criminal and every woman like a mild retardate—we need more common sense that can only come from making rape legal.

Yes, dear reader, you did just read a sentence in which the idea of making rape legal is described as “common sense.”

Such a change will provide a mature jolt to American women who have been babied for too long, who are protected and coddled as if they have no agency or intellect of their own. If a woman is indeed a child then maybe we really need to keep promoting “rape culture” as a way to keep them safe, but if they are actual adults, which is often claimed, then we can start treating them like adults by allowing them to take responsibility for the things that happen to them which are easily preventable with barely a strain of cognitive thought, awareness, and self control.

Huh. Earlier, Roosh compared rape to property theft. If the two are analogous, why isn’t Roosh advocating that we get rid of the laws that make theft illegal. By Roosh’s logic, don’t laws against theft “coddle” property owners and deny them “agency and intellect?”

Let’s make rape legal. Less women will be raped because they won’t voluntarily drug themselves with booze and follow a strange man into a bedroom, and less men will be unfairly jailed for what was anything but a maniacal alley rape. Until then, this devastating rape culture will continue, and women who we treat as children will continue to act like children.

Roosh seems a little confused as to who is acting like a child here.

So is Roosh being facetious here? Is this just a Swiftian “Modest Proposal?”

Certainly, Roosh is being deliberately provocative — no doubt hoping to generate as many pageviews as possible from whatever controversy ensues.

And I’m fairly certain that he is not altogether serious about his proposal, which would effectively mean that no woman would ever go home with him or any of his readers ever again.

But I don’t see a Swiftian satire here.  Roosh’s “argument” here, such as it is, repeats “arguments” he’s made in earnest many times before. He may be taking these arguments to their logical extreme, but he doesn’t seem to be doing so in an attempt to refute them. He clearly doesn’t give a shit about actually preventing rape. His absurdist “proposal” seems mostly to be an excuse to express his contempt for feminists and his hatred of women in general.

Roosh’s fans, for the most part, don’t seem to see the post as satire. Some echo his contemptuous attacks on women.

atlantaOthers second his Men’s Rightsy attack on feminism as something that “infantalizes” women.

shangiA few bring up the name of Jonathan Swift.  LoftBoy thinks Roosh’s proposal is “rediculous” enough to be satire, but thinks it just might work.

loftBut the smartest take on the satire question comes from a commenter who is no fan of Roosh.

rabzee

 

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alaisvex
alaisvex
9 years ago

So, question for Roosh: if men don’t need to be told that rape is bad because they already know that it is bad, why, then, do women need to worry about their safety at all? Who’s raping them when they’re vulnerable? I’d guess that he meant other women, but he seems to think that it’s other men. But men know that rape is bad. So, how exactly is this working?

alaisvex
alaisvex
9 years ago

Also, Roosh, if you get robbed in the ghetto, you don’t get blamed for it. Your experience gets turned into proof that all black people are evil thieves and muggers.

Eisues
Eisues
9 years ago

If rape is legal on private property, what’s stopping a guy from forcing this girl into said private property and then having nonconsensual sex with her anyway?! That’s damn stupid Roosh!

elle slutzky
elle slutzky
9 years ago

by giving this much time and space, you inherently endorse his arguments. you’re both a waste of space.

emilygoddess - MOD
emilygoddess - MOD
9 years ago

Guys, when the blogmaster shows up in the comments and asks you to stop making violent comments, you stop making violent comments. I’d rather not have to screen any more comments, please and thank you.

ParadoxicalIntention
9 years ago

elle slutzky | February 18, 2015 at 7:29 pm

by giving this much time and space, you inherently endorse his arguments. you’re both a waste of space.

Translation:

I’d rather you all shut up, so I’m going to make it sound like you’re somehow supporting him by giving him attention instead of paying attention to anything anyone’s said and how everyone here has denounced this idea. Also, I’m going to insult you because I feel inherently superior and I buy into the “don’t feed the trolls/sticks and stones” school of thought.

If you’d rather we shut up, leave. We have a right to talk about this. Ignoring it isn’t going to make him stop. It isn’t going to stop people from thinking like him or sharing his ideas. Showing how we completely and loudly disagree with it might bring some people sense. If not, then at least we can help keep people away from this creep. So many people have come in here and seen what David has written about Roosh and his ilk, and it’s steered them away from him.

Words do hurt. Ideas do hurt. Roosh’s worldview, the one he shares with countless others, has a body count, and no, we will not shut up about it.

Also, by your logic, you agree with what David’s saying because here you are, commenting on the blog.

Gideon Hay
Gideon Hay
9 years ago

Does this idiot not realize that men get raped too!! I think he might change his tune if he ended up in prison….which is bound to happen considering how he sees women!!!

M.
M.
9 years ago

by giving this much time and space, you inherently endorse his arguments.

By giving WWII this much time and space, you inherently endorse the Holocaust.

By giving the KKK this much time and space, you inherently endorse lynchings.

By giving Ferguson this much time and space, you inherently endorse police brutality, corruption and racism.

By giving the Westboro Baptist Church this much time and space, you inherently endorse “God hates f*gs” and funeral picketing.

By giving anti-vaxxers this much time and space, you inherently endorse not vaccinating children.

See how brain-implodingly idiotic that sounds when you change the players?

samantha
9 years ago
Reply to  elle slutzky

by giving this much time and space, you inherently endorse his arguments. you’re both a waste of space.

My, what an odd thing to say. How, exactly, do you figure?

Shaenon
9 years ago

Well, now we know how a rapist would like the law to deal with rape. This is useful information, if not surprising.

ParadoxicalIntention
9 years ago

Gideon Hay

Does this idiot not realize that men get raped too!! I think he might change his tune if he ended up in prison….which is bound to happen considering how he sees women!!!

Okay, one, “idiot” and other ablest terms are heavily frowned upon here. Please refrain from using them. There are other insults we can hurl at Roosh that aren’t hurtful towards those who have mental illnesses.

Two, so are jokes about prison rape. Not cool.

Shaenon
9 years ago

(if right now you walked into a dangerous ghetto and got robbed, you would be called an idiot and no one would say “teach ghetto kids not to steal”)

Can I say how tired I am of hearing this canard from rapists and their fans?

A few years back, my husband got mugged. He was out late at night in a bad neighborhood. The police showed up right away, took down his report, drove him around the area for an hour in case the muggers were still around, and spend the next several weeks investigating. Eventually they caught one of the muggers when he was picked up for another crime.

At no point did anyone–not the police, not friends who heard the story–claim it wasn’t a crime or tell my husband it was his fault. Because people with souls don’t think that way.

katz
9 years ago

Makes one sigh and wish ’twere so, yes?

Nah, only good in fiction. IRL there’s no reason to think a world with only women would be automatically better.

samantha
9 years ago
Reply to  katz

Nah, only good in fiction. IRL there’s no reason to think a world with only women would be automatically better.

Yeah, I know…but it is fun to dream.

M.
M.
9 years ago

@PI

I thought “Idiot” was alright, since just being willfully stupid isn’t a mental illness? If I’m wrong, oops, apologies for the above; change it to “Brain-implodingly stupid” or something instead.

Totally agreed with the bit about prison rape “Jokes,” though. Ugh.

weirwoodtreehugger
9 years ago

I think idiot and stupid are generally agreed upon as alright. Just not nuts, crazy, insane etc.

ParadoxicalIntention
9 years ago

Ah, I’ve always heard it was a slur like “stupid”, so I avoided using it and have been working to remove it from my daily vocabulary, and told other people to do the same.

My apologies if I’m in the wrong here.

sunnysombrera
sunnysombrera
9 years ago

Yeah I’ve always had the impression that “idiot” and “stupid” was okay here too. As it’s been said, idiot generally means willfully dumb or never thinks things through on a habitual basis (to really put a long spin on it).

Also agreeing with katz that an all-woman world wouldn’t necessarily be any better. If it’ll be anything like the times I’ve live in all female house shares then No Thank You!

Christina Nordlander
9 years ago

… but now he can’t go any lower, right?

I mean, once you’ve said “legalise rape”, surely there’s no further depravity to which you can sink. (At least in terms of blog posts, I guess, given that he’s already admitted to raping a drunk woman.)

Spindrift
Spindrift
9 years ago

I’m sure he’ll find some way to sink down deeper into that barrel. It’s too gruesome for me to want to speculate about though.

Dudley Dawson
Dudley Dawson
9 years ago

Cheers to you for recognizing Roosh was trolling and not really serious about his proposal, but was rather taking an extreme position to make a point. And his point isn’t really all that different from the point expressed by Emily Yoffee:

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/10/sexual_assault_and_drinking_teach_women_the_connection.html

Secondly, a few examples from my life to make some points:

1. Last month, I traveled to Rio de Janeiro for the first time. I read up on what neighborhoods I should not walk around in at night (but rather take taxis), not to flash any “bling” or carry large amounts of cash on me, not to drink to excess so I wouldn’t be viewed as an easier target, etc. And I conducted myself accordingly. As a result, I wasn’t mugged or assaulted, and left Rio with a much better impression than had a crime happened to my person or property. You can see the point I’m making here. Sure, we can “tell men not to rape”, just like we can tell poor Cariocas living in favelas not to mug. Nevertheless, there is always going to be a small percentage of men who just don’t care, no matter how many times they hear the message. I think we can agree that I acted responsibly in a foreign city that has a reputation as being a bit unsafe. Then can we not also agree that if the goal is to reduce the number of rapes, then perhaps women should not have sex while intoxicated (with men who are also intoxicated), invite men into their bedrooms late at night if they’re not intending to have sex, etc.?

2. A few years ago, my girlfriend at the time and I went out to celebrate an anniversary with a dinner at very nice restaurant. She had one glass of wine, and I had a few too many and got drunk. Once we returned home, we had sex. I was in no state to give consent in my drunken state. Was my girlfriend guilty of raping me? Should I go to the police and file a complaint?

3. Just last year, I met a woman at a bar and we instantly clicked. Massive flirting on both ends. I found out she was recently divorced, and I was single at the time. The night ended back at her place where we had sex. The next morning, she told me she wasn’t actually divorced, but rather recently separated. I felt deceived. Had I known she was still married, I wouldn’t have had sex with her! Was she guilty of raping me (by deception)? Should I go to the police and file a complaint?

sunnysombrera
sunnysombrera
9 years ago

Dudley:

Roosh exaggerating for effect, if that’s really what he’s doing, doesn’t change the fact that he is a self admitted rapist trying to shift the blame onto women. Doesn’t change that he has some disgusting attitudes and is a threat to anyone with a vagina.

1) False equivalency, and one that seems to suggest all men are rapists if you really want to translate it properly. You taking precautions in a dangerous city and not being mugged is happy coincidence. You still could have been mugged just by being out and about. Likewise, women often do take precautions to “guard” themselves from rape and are still raped, most commonly by their own partners or relatives. You and Roosh have a very narrow view of the circumstances surrounding rape – woman invites man she doesn’t know or goes with man she doesn’t know, in various states of sobriety but usually drunk, and is forced into sex. Somehow that’s her fault because she chose to trust the guy she was with instead of assume he is a rapist. Meanwhile only “stranger in the bushes” rape is “real” rape. The circumstances around rape are varied and it happens totally out of the blue. The problem is with the rapist, always.

2) You say you were drunk but were you too drunk to consent? If you’re sure the answer is yes, then she did indeed rape you.

3) I sense this is an attempted gotcha. Would like to combat that by saying few feminists argue that sex by deceit is rape unless there is an ultimatum e.g no glove no love but he forces himself in bareback anyway. If it’s a lie about yourself to win attraction points then it’s not rape but is certainly an asshole thing to do.

Hambeast (formerly twincats)
Hambeast (formerly twincats)
9 years ago

I know this thread has pretty much run its course but that picture of Roosh! He looks like a yeti and a spider monkey had an offspring (emphasis on the OFF) that had a bad case of the mange, to boot!

Mr. Dawson, your post is a bit of a derail. Especially after all the WE CAN’T EVEN here. Why do you feel the need to get into the semantics of what rape is or is not when the OP is about someone wanting to make rape LEGAL???

sunnysombrera
sunnysombrera
9 years ago

Not sure if I should have used the word “force” up there. Yay/nay, everyone?

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
9 years ago

@dudley:

Cheers to you for recognizing Roosh was trolling and not really serious about his proposal, but was rather taking an extreme position to make a point.

1. Oh boy, have I got a deal for you. It’s a magical rock that repels tigers. What, don’t believe me? When’s the last time you’ve heard of a tiger attack in the north-eastern US, hmm? I’ve never gotten attacked by a tiger while carrying this rock, so it must work!

But seriously, what sunnysombrera said. Plus, the vast majority of rapes are not committed by hardened criminals hiding in the bushes, they’re committed by men who don’t understand what rape actually is and don’t view what they’ve done as wrong. There was a study that polled a bunch of men about sex, and they found that as long as the questions didn’t use the word “rape,” men were happy to admit doing or being ok with doing things that are actually rape.

“Teach men not to rape” means teaching men what rape is and why consent is important. It means countering the terrible societal messages around sex and relationships. Best of all, it works.

2. Depends. Do you think it was rape? In other words, are you upset that it happened, and know you wouldn’t have consented if you were sober? The police aren’t going to hunt you down for having sex with a drunk person if they never press charges and are completely ok with what happened. Drunk sex isn’t 100% rape, it’s simply that a “yes” obtained while a person is drunk can’t count as consenting. It’s possible to safely have sex while drunk as long as you talk things over before anyone is inebriated and lay out clear ground rules that anyone can back out of at any time. If you don’t make sure everyone is consenting in a valid way before having sex, you risk raping them.

3. What sunnysombrera said, again. The woman in your scenario is an asshole for lying, but unless you made your strong preferences known, “rape by deception” isn’t a thing. Maybe if your preferences were more directly related to the sex act rather than qualities of your partner that play no part in the bedroom.

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