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The Spearhead: Paul Elam's dickishness is the fault of feminism

This picture makes more sense than WF Price's argument
This picture makes more sense than WF Price’s argument

So this is an … interesting reaction to that Buzzfeed piece about Paul Elam. And by “interesting” I mean “WTF?”

Over on The Spearhead — remember The Spearhead, home to some of the crankiest misogynists on the Internet? — our old friend WF Price offers a rather unique analysis of Elam’s life story.

Price admits right off the bat that Elam is indeed as much of an “asshole” as the Buzzfeed article makes him out to be, snarkily commenting that this fact “isn’t exactly news to anyone who has dealt with him personally, or read his articles.” And then he goes on to blame Elam’s assholery on feminism.

Wat.

Well, as Price sees it, Elam hasn’t exactly suffered for being an asshole. The fact that he basically got away with abandoning his daughter proves

that telling your wife and kids to screw off when your marriage goes bad is a better strategy if you’re concerned about yourself than trying to be a niceguy. What could be a more damning indictment of feminism than that?

Um, do you really want an answer to that?

Meanwhile, Price argues, the fact that Elam has had three failed marriages shows that ladies just love assholes. No, really. According to Price, Elam’s life story

proves that being an asshole doesn’t torpedo one’s prospects with women. Quite the opposite, in fact: Paul’s many walks down the aisle are testament to the fact that there’s something about the guy that contemporary women find appealing. Elam’s a major hit with women to this day.

Checkmate, feminism!

Price then works me into the  equation, for some reason.

And I don’t write this out of envy; on the contrary, I think his popularity with women has probably been his biggest problem in life (Futrelle wouldn’t understand).

Price concludes with this, er, zinger:

So if feminists were to say to me that Paul Elam proves that MRAs are terrible people, I’d respond by saying “he’s the product of your philosophy, not mine.”

It will take someone more versed in formal logic to explain exactly what logical fallacies Price is committing here, or if he’s somehow come up with a new logical fallacy all his own.

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RaikonL
RaikonL
6 years ago

We should ask the guys at RationalWiki!

theomegaconstant
6 years ago

Feminism is to these guys what socialism is to neo-conservatives, in which he can be blamed for literally anything, so matter how unrelated, and they consider the case closed.

theomegaconstant
6 years ago

Woops, I meant ‘it can be blamed,’ not ‘he can be blamed.’ My mangina is showing!

sunnysombrera
6 years ago

I love RationalWiki’s page on MRA terms. So funny.

Elam has had three FAILED marriages due to his assholery. The emphasis should be on FAILED not three. Clearly Price is thinking like a PUA in that success with women is all about numbers instead of a solid, quality, life long relationship. Elam tried three times at quality and fucked up to the point where the ex wives are afraid to talk about him. It doesn’t mean he’s good with women it means he was able to disguise his true colours long enough to marry them. Then when they saw that he was an asshole they split. If women were truly attracted to men like Elam they wouldn’t divorce them.

Falconer
6 years ago

No True MRA!

Subtract Hominem, the Renegade Misandroid
Subtract Hominem, the Renegade Misandroid
6 years ago

that telling your wife and kids to screw off when your marriage goes bad is a better strategy if you’re concerned about yourself than trying to be a niceguy. What could be a more damning indictment of feminism than that?

umm…. literally anything?

ikanreed
ikanreed
6 years ago

Falconer has it. No True Scotsman fallacy.

zoon echon logon
zoon echon logon
6 years ago

that telling your wife and kids to screw off when your marriage goes bad is a better strategy if you’re concerned about yourself than trying to be a niceguy. What could be a more damning indictment of feminism than that?

Acting like a selfish, irresponsible asshole is a good idea if you’re only concerned with your own happiness and don’t give a shit about other people, including your children. Take that, feminism!

The whole “chicks dig assholes” thing is so old. It’s been my experience that selfish, irresponsible assholes (male or female) are willing to say whatever they think you want to hear in order to get what they want from you. They’re “attractive” because they’re manipulative, not because they’re cruel. Once you realize what they’re really like, you kick them out of your life.

It’s odd that MRAs talk a lot about how horrible and evil the women they’ve dated/married were, but this doesn’t constitute evidence that men secretly want to be abused and bossed around by women.

diogenes
diogenes
6 years ago

I believe this is called the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy.

ikanreed
ikanreed
6 years ago

@diogenes

No, it isn’t. They aren’t taking their observations and using it to justify a hypothesis originally based on those observations.

Viscaria
Viscaria
6 years ago

My apologies if this appears twice. I think WordPress ate my first comment.

Sorry WTF Price, but abandoning your children, both in terms of contact and financial support, is not a feminist ideal. It’s like he thinks there are only two options: staying in a miserable marriage, or completely disregarding all of your responsibilities to your kids.

Kootiepatra
6 years ago

I know it’s not *technically* a logical fallacy, but I think my ideal categorization would be to lump the whole thing under “non sequitur”.

ThatBear
ThatBear
6 years ago

Pretty sure that’s just projection?

Lea
Lea
6 years ago

Elam’s a major hit with women to this day.

Um. No.
So. Much. No.

toujoursgai
6 years ago

He’s using the classic argument known as “Nuh uh! YOU are!”

Lea
Lea
6 years ago

I think his popularity with women has probably been his biggest problem in life (Futrelle wouldn’t understand).

Elam has a big problem with women that David wouldn’t understand. That much is true.

ceebarks
ceebarks
6 years ago

…on the other hand, if Elam had spent his life single and celibate, somehow I am pretty sure it would also be feminism’s fault that he turned out this way.

It’s odd that MRAs talk a lot about how horrible and evil the women they’ve dated/married were, but this doesn’t constitute evidence that men secretly want to be abused and bossed around by women.

right? ha

I thought WTF Price had given up the game and gotten a job. Sorry to hear that didn’t work out.

Viscaria
Viscaria
6 years ago

He’s a big hit with women = at least 3 women have been interested in him at some point. Makes sense.

Kootiepatra
6 years ago

Also:

that telling your wife and kids to screw off when your marriage goes bad is a better strategy if you’re concerned about yourself than trying to be a niceguy.

Define “better strategy”. If “better” means keeping as much of your own money as you can while eschewing as much responsibility as you can, then okay.

But mightn’t “better” include things like not alienating everyone you’ve ever been close to? Actually having a relationship with one’s own daughter and grandkids? Not having your dirty laundry strewn across the internet, or at least having the self-restraint not to cuss out the reporter conducting the interview? Hitting middle age without carrying along mounds of bitterness and hatred at half of the human race?

I’d rather have a smaller bank account and a bigger heart, personally…

Lea
Lea
6 years ago

I’d respond by saying “he’s the product of your philosophy, not mine.”

I respond to that by giving Price the binary four salute and pirouetting out of the room.

NicolaLuna
NicolaLuna
6 years ago

This Buzzfeed article sure has the MRA crowd riled up.

I’m new here – a friend linked to WHTM on Saturday and I have since spent a shocking amount of hours reading old posts and *all* the comments where feminism, destroying trolls and posting of cat gifs abound.

It’s almost amusing how many things MRAs blame on feminism. Violence against women, violence against men, women being raped, men being raped, murder, infanticide, homosexuality (which is apparently a bad thing), “spinsterhood”, men being assholes, mental illness, economy crashes and the zombie apocalypse. Okay, I made the last one up but if there were ever a zombie apocalypse we will totally be to blame because it is ALL OUR FAULT BECAUSE NO LOGICAL REASON SHUT UP YOU MEANIE FEMINISTS!!

Anyway, hi everyone, glad I found this place.

Viscaria
Viscaria
6 years ago

The “feminists are virgin-shamers!” and the “don’t listen to Dave Futrelle, he never gets laid lol” wings of the manosphere should maybe talk out their issues amongst themselves.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
6 years ago

I developed such a level of detachment as a lawyer that I once used some crime scene photos of a murder to show what kitchen cabinet doors I wanted but even I had to abandon family law. It was too horrendous to see people just use kids as weapons.

ceebarks
ceebarks
6 years ago

plus, what would WTFP have thought was a fair outcome for Elam in the divorce?

For him to keep using drugs and hanging around his drug and alcohol abusing friends, while having custody of the kids? The drug charges and alcohol abuse predate the divorce and were probably a big contributing factor.

There’s a reason Susan’s parents asked her to drop the rope mid-legal-wrangling, and it sounds to me like it is that they realized that he was much more burden than asset to the family, and that he would probably always be.

And then he went and proved them right.

Seriously, though, what would Price want here? Kids hanging out with an addict all day while the sober parent works? You know what he’d say if the addict were the mom….

fruitloopsie
fruitloopsie
6 years ago

” All Women love assholes but don’t you dare say ALL Men are assholes or All Men love asshole women, generalizing men is misandry!” -Misoygnist assholes in a nutshell

“Women need to stop complaining about men its in our nature so grow a thicker skin! ::woman in bad relationship:: this is proof that women like ‘bad boys'” -Misoygnist assholes in a nutshell

It’s sad the word ‘nice’ is such a cute word now I don’t want to use the word anymore because they ruined it.

Spindrift
Spindrift
6 years ago

“What? They’re saying my hero Paul Elam just blames everything wrong in his life on women? How can I defend him?… I’ve got it! I’ll just blame women for it somehow, just need to make up how and then post it!”

These people clearly start with the answer “women/feminists are to blame” and work backwards from that.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

You took the words right out of my mouth, Kootiepatra.

Sure, abandoning his family saved Elam some money. But it’s obvious from listening to or reading his words that he is not a happy person. Maybe if he had decided to become a better person and be a loving husband and father, he’d be a happier person.

Selfish and cruel people are always looking out for their own interests but caring and kind people are the ones who seem to be happier.

I mean, I’m depression prone and insecure and I’m still happier than Elam because I have a few people I can count on who can count on me back.

Would anyone of us here trade places with him? I doubt it. The phrase “money can’t buy happiness” has become cliche for a reason. Because it’s true.

Viscaria
Viscaria
6 years ago

@ceebarks,I believe Price’s ideal scenario is that there be no divorce. Paul’s ex-wife would have continued taking care of the kids and rubbing his manly feet upon request. Paul would have continued to do whatever the heck he wanted to do, but he would do it while married, which is Price’s definition of a good father.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

New England has been burdened with too much snow. This is the fault of feminists because they teach women to be hypergamous. Men have to go out and earn a bunch of money and buy stuff for women. The manufacture of the products and the gas required to ship them cause pollution. Pollution causes global warming. Global warming causes extreme weather. Therefore feminists caused people in Boston to have to do extra shoveling. Therefore women are bad.

But joke’s on them because the alpha males they like won’t shovel the walk just so feminazis can safely walk in their Louboutin stilettos. Feminists are trapped indoors now because all the men are going their own way.

Wow! Anyone can play this game!

Lea
Lea
6 years ago

Viscaria,

Price is also saying that people who have only been married to one person are less popular than someone who has been married to three people. Does that mean that people with 4 marriages are more appealing than people who have only been married 3 times? Do people who live longer take a penalty because of the unfair advantage they have to outlive a spouse? How exactly does Price put this equation together? What are the rules? Why does it have to be multiple marriages? Why not all ltrs? Do the marriages have to happen consecutively or can they happen all at once? Are polygamous cults in the southwestern states proof that creepy old dirt farmers are “popular” with teenage sister wives? Is that feminism’s fault too?

So many questions… 0.o

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
6 years ago

“New England has been burdened with too much snow. This is the fault of feminists”

I thought freak weather conditions were caused by gay marriage. I’m no climatologist mind.

Spindrift
Spindrift
6 years ago

It’s like 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon, only you replace Kevin Bacon with “EVIL FEMINISTS”.

Cyberwulf
Cyberwulf
6 years ago

@ceebarks:

“plus, what would WTFP have thought was a fair outcome for Elam in the divorce?”

Why, for Elam to skip off back to bachelorhood, never having to pay a penny for his daughter in child support, and to waltz back into her life and be welcomed with open arms when he needed the ego boost of playing Daddy and Grandpa.

You know, reading about Elam’s family history makes me think that there’s probably a need/want out there for some kind of support network for men who walked away from their kids for whatever reason (young, scared, drinking/drugging, didn’t care, whatever) and regret it years later. Something to help them process their feelings and accept responsibility for the estrangement without framing it as “B*tch took my kids/the court system’s agin me”, and to help them face the possibility of rejection if they do reach out to their kids. If MRAs weren’t so busy spamming college websites with false rape reports and buying David fake twitter supporters, that’s something they could be doing.

ceebarks
ceebarks
6 years ago

I believe Price’s ideal scenario is that there be no divorce. Paul’s ex-wife would have continued taking care of the kids and rubbing his manly feet upon request. Paul would have continued to do whatever the heck he wanted to do, but he would do it while married, which is Price’s definition of a good father

yikes, man. If so, he’s a bigger idiot than I’d have thought. Enabling an addict is not a good move… sometimes there’s truly nothing you can do but let them go, which is what Susan (wisely) did.

His marriage didn’t just “go bad” for mysterious reasons, and the same things that made it a bad idea to stay married to him also made it a bad idea to continue having him involved in the family. At some level, Elam even seems to have understood this at the time he wrote his bio, as he states that drug and alcohol abuse very often hurts families. Though suddenly I’m struck by the fact that he seemed to think addiction was such a “family issue”:

It’s a given in the treatment world that including the spouse is essential; that we are, in actuality, treating the family and marriage as opposed to treating the individual.

So I hope he wasn’t trying to blame the families and put the responsibility for recovery on the sober spouses, ’cause I can see him doing exactly that. “Is it really your fault you drink so much? Maybe the way your wife treats you is what really forces you into this pattern. Let’s bring her in and make it very clear that you need more footsy rubs and less washing the dishes, ok?”

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
6 years ago

So, a kitten LARPing that one frustrating level in Super Mario Sunshine makes more sense than Price’s argument?

Yeah, pretty much.

It ultimately just boils down to “Feminists stacked the courts against men, so Elam choosing abandonment rather than ‘martyrdom’ is feminism’s fault, and women like bad boys more than nice guys which caused Elam to have access to three women to have failed marriages with.”

All you can really do is say “nope, sorry, you’re wrong. At every level and every step, you are wrong.” Failed relationships have existed as long as relationships, and how exactly can you say women are attracted to a “bad boy” when one of Elam’s wives swore she wanted nothing to do with him ever again?

Elam’s situation is the product of Elam and his personality. His marriages and the positive aspects of his relationships result from his ability to hid his assholish nature for short periods of time.

Buttercup Q. Skullpants

I’d go with either argumentum ad merda taurorum or argumentum ad quis futuere. Also known as “Look what you made me do!”

Elam’s a major hit with women to this day.

Considering Elam’s history of abuse, that’s…a really unfortunate choice of words.

sparky
sparky
6 years ago

Well, of course Elam being a selfish asshole is feminism’s fault. Everything is feminsim’s fault. War, poverty, unemployment, violence, sad boners, environmental destruction, climate change, me tripping this morning over the stack of books I keep by my bed; all feminsim’s fault. Damn you feminism!

Lea
Lea
6 years ago

MRAs:
Paul Elam is a jerk and women married him. Clearly proof that women love evil men, thus feminism is evil because allowed their own agency women will only get hurt/give sexes to their wrong men.

Paul Elam’s ex was a jerk and Paul Elam married her. Clearly proof that men are ensnared and put upon by evil, lying women and that is why they should be allowed to control women.

http://www.moviesoundscentral.com/wavs/raising_arizona/Arizona7.wav

Lea
Lea
6 years ago

Poo. No link.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
6 years ago

@Cyberwulf:

You know, reading about Elam’s family history makes me think that there’s probably a need/want out there for some kind of support network for men who walked away from their kids for whatever reason (young, scared, drinking/drugging, didn’t care, whatever) and regret it years later. Something to help them process their feelings and accept responsibility for the estrangement without framing it as “B*tch took my kids/the court system’s agin me”, and to help them face the possibility of rejection if they do reach out to their kids. If MRAs weren’t so busy spamming college websites with false rape reports and buying David fake twitter supporters, that’s something they could be doing.

That would be a great service, but MRAs would be the absolute worst people to do it. They’re way too into reinforcing the “B*tch took my kids/the court system’s against me” to even begin to dream of hoping of countering it. They’d probably be congratulating the dudes for getting out without being shackled by child support (if that’s what happened) while echoing outrage that they aren’t able to just show up in their kids’ life again and be completely accepted.

Buttercup Q. Skullpants

@kirbywarp Exactly, the point at which Elam became a bad boy (ie allowed the “nice” facade to fall away) is the point at which Susan decided enough was enough. All it means is that he’s able to conceal his asshole nature long enough to lure women into being with him.

It’s like arguing that mice are attracted to the trap, not the cheese.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
6 years ago

To be honest, I had forgotten that The Spearhead existed. They used to be one of the main focuses on this blog. Oddly, Price is drawing an “old vs young” line in the linked post, saying Elam’s type of message doesn’t resonate with the younger crowd. I wonder when that dynamic cropped up.

M.
M.
6 years ago

If this dumbass was a Tea Partier, he’d be blaming everything on Obama instead.

ceebarks
ceebarks
6 years ago

Why, for Elam to skip off back to bachelorhood, never having to pay a penny for his daughter in child support, and to waltz back into her life and be welcomed with open arms when he needed the ego boost of playing Daddy and Grandpa.

He even got that, but has (at least temporarily) fucked it back up. lol

@kirbywarp maybe AVFM got a lot bigger than The Spearhead and that Price resents it a little? It makes sense he’d try to carve out a nichier niche in the niche.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
6 years ago

@Buttercup Q. Skullpants:

It’s like arguing that mice are attracted to the trap, not the cheese.

That’s a good way to put it.

They think of the world as if all men were either rich celebrities/business executives, cubicle or blue-collar workers, or biker dudes, with flat personalities to match. They’re worldview isn’t sophisticated enough to handle the idea that a man could be a three-dimensional character that is able to put on a mask in public.

Kakanian
Kakanian
6 years ago

Well, as far as I can tell, the logic is that he´s measuring the man by his own metrics and finds him agreeable. Not admirable, mind you, because bedding three women with minimal emotional investment on his part is a rather low number for a PUA, as far as I can gather.

The bit about claiming that Feminism made Elam harks back to that comment how it destroyed the “traditional family”, we know how they imagine that one to have been, and links into earlier comments about how men wouldn’t be abandoning their families if only wifes were still husband’s subservient slaves for all intent and purpose.

Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

“Feminists are trapped indoors now because all the men are going their own way.”

This feminist is perfectly happy not having to go out in that shit! Less happy that something something the radiators will be working again shortly — aka the heat will be back on once the ancient system acknowledges that it got fixed (more a minor snafu than a problem, but brr is it chilly!)

Aunt Edna
Aunt Edna
6 years ago

That’s no surprise, is it?

According to MRA / TRP crowd, everything that’s wrong in the world, and in their lives specifically, can and should be blamed on women in general and feminists in particular — every single thing.

So of course Elam’s dysfunction is women’s fault — if anything, the Buzzfeed article has made it crystal clear that women are still plotting to destroy him. /s

theomegaconstant
6 years ago

Hi Nicola Luna! Welcome to the site! Make yourself comfortable.

P.S. Don’t touch my stuff.

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