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a voice for men antifeminism creepy empathy deficit entitled babies evil sexy ladies memes men who should not ever be with women ever misogyny MRA ugly feminists

Someone could probably write a Master’s thesis about the sexual insecurities on display in A Voice for Men’s "memes."

Classy, A Voice for Men, very classy.
Why are so many MRAs and PUAs so invested in the notion that women who reject them will end up miserable?

A Voice for Men’s ongoing campaign to convince the world that “Men’s Human Rights Activists” are a bunch of petty, malicious, sexually insecure douchenozzles continues apace.

I mean, that must be what they’re really up to, right? Because no one who actually had any real interest in human rights of any kind would produce “memes” like the one above and all the rest below, delivered to your eyes straight from AVFM’s Fcebook page.

At their best, AVFM’s memes are merely baffling …

Wat?
Wat?
What ... do the Saw movies have to do with any of this?
What … do the Saw movies have to do with any of this?

… or ridiculous.

How far must your head be shoved up your ass to even think any of this was even remotely true?
How far must your head be shoved up your ass to even think any of this is even remotely true?

AVFM also loves appropriating the images of famous people, and pretending that these people are somehow on their side. But their choices of imaginary celebrity endorsers can be a bit, well, ironic. A couple of days ago in one of my posts on the iconography of the “Cultural Marxism” conspiracy theorists, I posted a neo-Nazi meme showing a crudely photoshopped picture of Star Trek’s Kirk and Spock endorsing Adolph Hitler — a rather odd conceit, given that William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy are both Jewish, and that the original Star Trek series promoted tolerance and a very 60s-liberal sort of multiculturalism.

Well, here’s AVFM’s attempt to make Spock an MRA:

Er, not so much.
Er, not so much.

Dudes, hate to break it to you, but Nimoy is actually a … feminist. Really. In the 60s he demanded that Star Trek’s producers pay actress Nichele Nichols the same as her male counterparts on the show. And as a photographer today, Nimoy acknowleges that he is heavily influenced by feminism, partiularly the writings of Jewish feminist Letty Cottin Pogrebin, one of the founders of Ms. magazine.

So that’s not really his “listening to feminism face” at all.

An astonishing number of AVFM’s memes are so sexualized that they are more or less soft-core porn. Even their anti-male-rape memes, ostensibly attempts to raise consciousness about the rape of men by women, feature seductive, scantily clad women, undermining whatever message they are supposed to be getting across.

But the most, er, revealing memes are the ones that hint at deep sexual insecurities on the part of the meme makers and those who “like” them on Facebook. (The images that follow are mildly NSFW.)

This meme, for example, actually features the dreaded vagina dentata:

[slightly risque meme removed]

And this one attempts to shame male feminists by suggesting they enjoy being penetrated, an act that’s really only “shameful” if you have some rather fucked-up notions of what is and what isn’t appropriate male sexuality. And a certain degress of  hatred and fear of female sexual agency.

[slightly risque meme removed]

 

AVFM meme-maker John Galt also continues to be weirdly obsessed by me.

And then there’s this lovely meme, intended as a joke at the expense of a feminist activist who’s been on AVFM’s enemies list ever since she told some AVFM dudes to shut up at a demonstration several years ago. (I’ve crossed out her face, because no one really deserves to be made into an AVFM meme.)

[slightly risque meme removed]

The joke is obviously supposed to be at her expense, suggesting that she is so unattractive that she makes penises wilt. But you don’t have to be Sigmund Freud to realize that this isn’t the real story here. This is a woman demonized by AVFM and other antifeminists because once, several years ago, she shouted down some dudes. It’s not her appearance that frightens their penises; it’s the fact that she wouldn’t put up with their bullshit.

Guys, you’re not fooling anyone, except yourselves.

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weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

Bina,
Every troll thinks he’s going to deliver something we haven’t seen before. Does he think it’s our first week on the internet? Or does he have an over inflated ego and think his tired ass MRA talking points and random caps locked words are a sign of great intellect?

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
6 years ago

Found Duerstisms’s source for the feminist quotes copypasta. Tried googling a couple to see if I could find their source. Could only find anti-feminist sites that reproduce the quote ver batim without linking to the quote in context.

Duerstisms, I doubt you clicked the link to a previous article on this blog where many of those quotes were dissected, so here’s a little taste. This one:

As long as some men use physical force to subjugate females, all men need not. The knowledge that some men do suffices to threaten all women. He can beat or kill the woman he claims to love; he can rape women…he can sexually molest his daughters… THE VAST MAJORITY OF MEN IN THE WORLD DO ONE OR MORE OF THE ABOVE. Marilyn French

Here’s the full quote, minus the ellipses. (hope this embeds!)

http://manboobz.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/marilynfrenchactualquote.png?w=604

So yeah, when she says “the vast majority of men in the world do one or more of the above,” “the above” includes much less extreme things than just beating, killing, and raping.

Lea
Lea
6 years ago

My STEM interested daughter is writing a paper on Gamergate.

I think there is something sort of karmic about all that hate toward women being the source of an “A” on a girl’s report card.

grumpycatisagirl
6 years ago

“Research your own fuckin’ movement why dontcha? It’s rife with baggage and has a TON to answer for. It’s not all rainbows and sprinkles.”

Oh. I see. It’s full of fabricated quotes and out-of-context quotes from works of fiction that none of us have ever, ever seen or investigated before ever.

Thanks for doing our research for us. Clearly you excel at research.

Bina
Bina
6 years ago

Every troll thinks he’s going to deliver something we haven’t seen before. Does he think it’s our first week on the internet? Or does he have an over inflated ego and think his tired ass MRA talking points and random caps locked words are a sign of great intellect?

Yeah, I think I’ve seen that copy-pasta list before. Wasn’t it also posted by another snot-nosed young MRA, that “Voice for Male Students” guy, whose name at the moment eludes me? I think it was. And it was debunked. That was MONTHS ago, if not years.

And yet, that stupid listicle is STILL making the rounds. It’s like these guys are so new to the Internets that they actually have no idea that this thing is that old, and that long debunked. It must be terribly shocking to realize they’re onto nothing, let alone anything new. No wonder they feel like they have to yell at us like we’re misbehaving little kids.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

The funny thing about shirtgate is that feminists didn’t get all that outraged. We said the shirt was sexist and inappropriate and emblematic of misogyny in STEM. It prompted many women to tell their stories of misogyny they experienced in these fields. We even recognized that is was a move made out of ignorance. That he was more privilege blind and careless than malicious. After he apologized, we moved on.

It’s misogynists who threw the tantrums. They’re still complaining about it months later. They’re the ones who went into a frothing rage.

Typical projection that we always see from reactionaries. They are angry all the time. They are aggrieved and full of hate. So they accuse of us of over sensitivity, hysteria and hate. They respond to reasoned criticisms or snarky mocking with rage and then call us over emotional. It would be funny if it didn’t so often lead to death threats.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
6 years ago

@grumpycatisagirl:

Silly, we aren’t supposed to actually research the quotes, we’re supposed to just look up buzzfeed-style “top 10 evil-bad things feminists said” and subsequently give up the whole enterprise. Actually looking at the quotes in context and how they were manipulated to sound much worse than reality (if you can even find the context, because the buzzfeed-style lists just reproduce the text), is misandry.

Lea
Lea
6 years ago

When the shirt guy apologized, that’s when he started getting hatetweets from antifeminists. It is not feminists who attacked that guy.

Fibinachi
6 years ago

The oddest thing is that a number of that list, even in context stripped, mangled form isn’t all that bad.

Like the Susan Brownmiller ones. Some men raping helps enforce a systm where the threat of it is a problem.

The worst thing you can say about that is: “well, I guess that’s true. Huh”

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
6 years ago

@Fibinachi:

Yeah, some of the quotes only start sounding terrible if you bunch them up with a bunch of other more sinister-sounding quotes. Your brain starts latching on to the bad-sounding things without really paying attention to the content. It’s basically psychological priming, and it works as long as you don’t read too carefully.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

It’s beside the point because sexual preferences aren’t oppression. Because getting laid isn’t a human right.

But, I’m wondering why he’s assuming that American women think uncut penises are gross. I’m an American woman and I don’t think they are. I’ve never heard another woman say it either. And I tend to make friends with women who are open about sex. I’m guessing this assumption comes from TV and movies. Misogynists always get all their information about female sexuality from either pop culture or men on the internet. It never even occurs to them to listen to women. Penis size and appearance is actually not a big priority in choosing a partner for the vast majority of us.

Also, he ignores that some women are lesbian or asexual and don’t have a penis preference and some men are gay or bi and very well may have a penis preference.

Misogynists these days are so inconsistent. Which is it, boys? Are feminists man hating lesbians or heterosexual pretty girls who were so cruel as to fuck men who aren’t you? It can’t be both.

Bina
Bina
6 years ago

American women are often socialized to believe that mutilated cockmeat is the most visually appealing lol. What the actual fuck?

Hello, Canadian woman here (that’s NORTH American), just chiming in to tell you you’re dead wrong here (as you have been everywhere else so far, ha ha). We’re not socialized to have any opinion or preference on the matter at all. I’ve had sex with men who were circumcised and men who were not. Could hardly tell there was any difference. To be honest, the only thing I could see was that the uncut guys’ dongs were wearing hoodies, while the cut guys’ dongs were not. It made no difference to their performance or their apparent enjoyment of the act. It made no difference in terms of being able to use condoms. And it certainly made no difference to how I responded. The guy’s individual personality is far and away more important to any woman than how his penis looks.

I don’t know where you got the idea that circumcision has anything to do with a woman’s wants at all, since it actually has its roots in patriarchal religions in which women had little or no say in their sons’ lives at all. And in more recent times, it was done across the board (again, by a very male-dominated medical establishment) as a hygienic precaution, since pulling back a baby boy’s foreskin and washing underneath it can be tricky for a new parent (not necessarily the mother; dads are just as capable of bathing babies as moms are, and frankly, they should step up to that plate.) The hygienic aspect does have some validity, as circumcised men get fewer sexually-transmitted infections than uncircumcised ones do. It is easier to keep a trimmed penis clean than an untrimmed one, and infections happen more often to guys who can’t or won’t wash under their foreskins. That’s just a plain old scientific fact. As is the fact that smegma is full of dead skin cells, urine, old semen and all kinds of bacteria, and can smell bad if it’s not thoroughly washed away. If you don’t want to go near a long-unwashed vagina because you find it gross, you can’t reasonably expect us to be thrilled about your own less-than-clean peen. Any repugnance a woman may have toward an uncircumcised penis is likely to stem from poor hygiene and smegma odor, not the mere appearance of a foreskin. And that problem is easily solved by plain old WASHING.

And sometimes there are even medical indications for circumcision, such as a too-tight foreskin cutting off circulation to the glans, or one damaged in an accident becoming scarred or infected. If you have to lose some skin to save the organ, that’s no tragedy.

But none of that can honestly be called “mutliation”, as it does not impair penile function at all, and you are being frankly ridiculous to characterize it as such (as Kirby has already pointed out from his own experience). If you’re not getting large chunks of the shaft lopped off, as happens to the clitoris in FGM, and then getting the remainder stitched up so tightly that you can’t have sex without a lot of pain, and can hardly even pee, you’re NOT being mutilated. The honestly worst thing about it is the fact that it is so often done without informed consent, sometimes not even from the parents — and, if part of a religious rite, possibly by men not qualified to do minor surgery, under less than sanitary conditions, meaning slip-ups and infections are a much greater risk.

But again, women and their (imagined) sexual preferences have never had anything to do with ANY of that.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
6 years ago

@weirwoodtreehugger:

Misogynists these days are so inconsistent. Which is it, boys? Are feminists man hating lesbians or heterosexual pretty girls who were so cruel as to fuck men who aren’t you? It can’t be both.

Sure it can! All it takes is a little

http://cdn.teen.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/spongebob-imagination.gif

(My sincerest apologies to Spongebob for associating him with these terrible people.)

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
6 years ago

Is it strange that I’m kind of enjoying this troll? It sucks that he doesn’t seem to want to actually respond to anything, but once you accept that’s how he operates then it turns into something like a gameshow, where he’s putting out challenges for us to dissect and argue against. If he moves on, that indicates we “beat” the challenge and qualified for the next round.

He’s just hands-off enough that I can sit back and enjoy everyone’s fisking, and his subject is mainly men rather than women so the tediousness is lacking that extra edge that makes it super offensive.

Perhaps when he starts repeating himself and acting like nobody addressed the point eight times before, he’ll start getting too boring. For now, however, at least for me, it’s kind of relaxing.

Spindrift
Spindrift
6 years ago

Could the belief that most women prefer circumcised men come from all the porn MRA’s tend to watch?

Lea
Lea
6 years ago

I’m an American woman and I don’t think they are.

Ditto.

I have heard women say they don’t like them as much as circumcised cock. . That’s what normalizing something will do. It skews our vision of how people “should” look.

It never kept any of those women from having affairs with uncircumcised men. So, they must not have been too turned off by their uncut state.

sunnysombrera
6 years ago

@spindrift Probably. MRAs seem to have taken a lot of “women’s sexual preferences” ideas from porn e.g huge dongs, jackhammer sex, that women will orgasm if she says no but you force yourself on her anyway.

Lea
Lea
6 years ago

Could the belief that most women prefer circumcised men come from all the porn MRA’s tend to watch?

I think so. The prevalence of porn (an industry traditionally controlled by and marketed to men) combined with a lack of sexual education in the US contributes to alot of misconceptions about sex and the human body.

I like a little pr0n in my life, but most of it is just grotesque. The dry vaginas and chafed penises. The guy who pounds away like he thinks women get off by having their cervix jack hammered. The terrifying, overflowing cornucopia of bigotry and abuse. The uncomfortable positions and general awkwardness. The horrible, horrible production quality. The seemingly universal hairless and spray tanned bodies. The complete lack of anything resembling actual attraction or passion. All of those things make pron far less appealing than it could and should be.

Thank goodness that is changing. We’re seeing more feminist porn, more variety of bodies, ages and races that are not fetishized or demeaned.

Does anyone else ever listen to Sex Nerd Sandra? I do occasionally. It’s made me appreciate how much we need sex educators. We need activists to take the dialogue about sex away from fundamentalists and bigots. I think we also need activists in the porn industry.

ParadoxicalIntention
6 years ago

Guest

Oh wait I lie–Sacramento’s is technically the world’s largest; York’s is the world’s most visited (not surprising, given that it’s a few steps from a busy train station–and free).

WAIT WAIT WAIT. Like Sacramento, California? Or is there another Sacramento I’m not aware of? I only ask because I live in the California one.

Lea

How is he discredited and how is pointing out his sexist behavior doing anything bad to him? You are switching the oppressor and the oppressed. If I say something racist and people point it out, they are not causing me harm. I caused harm and they told me so.

His accomplishments were tarnished by his actions and he admitted as much and apologized. Those accomplishments are still celebrated and respected. He’s not a villain. He’s a guy who did something stupid and sexist and said he was sorry. Moving on. No one hates him or is out to get him.

????

Did he discover the comet all on his own or was he a part of the team that miraculously landed the rover on the comet? Wasn’t his team leader a woman? You may have your facts jumbled, MRA troll.

QFT.

At best, the shirt was damn tacky, and to wear it on national television while announcing a huge scientific breakthrough should be a no-no.

At worst, it is, as many other commenters have mentioned, a symptom. This kind of little thing is usually a red flag indicating what kind of environment his workplace is.

Also, way to erase the contributions of his whole team, you horrifically angular fuckbucket. He was NOT someone who single-handedly landed a satellite on a comet, he was part of a larger team, and they all did their part.

He was chosen as a representative, and he flubbed it up. And he apologized, so we’ve moved on. He realized he was wrong, and he said he was sorry. That’s all we wanted. And then people attacked him for apologizing, and attacked us for “forcing” him to apologize.

Really, y’all need to make up your minds.

Honestly, if I fucked up like that though, and I knew I was going to get complaints either way, I’d rather err on the side of not looking like a complete ass and just apologize.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

I tend to think the vast majority of men who complain about circumcision don’t genuinely care about the issue but just use it as a cudgel against feminists. To my knowledge most men do not feel like their lives have been negatively effected by it. It usually comes up when anti feminists bring it up. Certainly MRAS don’t care about bodily autonomy.

sunnysombrera
6 years ago

@WWTH Agreed. Same with the draft. They’re probably aware that it’ll never actually happen to them but the fact that it exists in theory is enough. Even though the existence of the draft has nothing to do with women or feminism and they get told this REPEATEDLY, they keep waving it around like it’s a valid accusation.

fromafar2013
6 years ago

you horrifically angular fuckbucket

I don’t know why, but I find this entirely too hilarious. I’m going to steal it for IRL use, okay?

Bina
Bina
6 years ago

I tend to think the vast majority of men who complain about circumcision don’t genuinely care about the issue but just use it as a cudgel against feminists. To my knowledge most men do not feel like their lives have been negatively effected by it. It usually comes up when anti feminists bring it up. Certainly MRAS don’t care about bodily autonomy.

Yup.

And even more ironic, circumcision arose in times of extreme patriarchy, was perpetuated by a blatantly patriarchal sense of conformity, and the current trend away from it can at least partly be credited to feminist moms who value their sons’ right to body autonomy and informed consent. Not only is the idea that “women EXPECT circumcision” false, but the idea that feminists are somehow promoting it is so ridiculous as to be downright laughable. No, dude, we’re not pushing for boys to get snipped so we can oppress them; in fact, some of us are, at least in our own private lives, pushing back against it. Not so much because it’s oppressive, mind you, as that it isn’t strictly necessary for most guys, and avoidance of unnecessary medical procedures is, in fact, a feminist thing.

guest
guest
6 years ago

@ParadoxicalIntention–yes, the one and only California State Railroad Museum:

http://www.csrmf.org/

If you haven’t been there, and like trains, you’re in for a treat. I did a project there one summer and had a blast except omg it was hot. I remember the first time I visited I walked 30 blocks from the train station to an office I was going to and I thought I was gonna die.

@gilshalos–I was in the Outer Hebrides in the weeks leading up to the referendum, and pretty much everyone there was a Yes, so I was surprised and disappointed at the result. Have you noticed any changes/negative repercussions since then? The fact that the vote was so close, despite such blatant No media slant, should have been a wakeup call, but I haven’t heard anything since the immediate aftermath.

ParadoxicalIntention
6 years ago

fromafar2013

I don’t know why, but I find this entirely too hilarious. I’m going to steal it for IRL use, okay?

Go ahead. It’s the result of an insult formula that seems to be working for me rather well:

[Adverb] [Adjective] [Swear] [Noun].

Guest

@ParadoxicalIntention–yes, the one and only California State Railroad Museum:

Aaaaah yes. I’ve been there before when I was really little on a school field trip. I spent from kindergarten to the early parts of the fourth grade in Sacramento (when I was unfortunately dragged out-of-state by my abusive stepfather), and we had some cool field trips. We went down the river on an old-timey river boat for one. I forget the name of it, but it’s still in service.

Old Sac is a really awesome place, though sometimes the curbs can be a hassle. I love going to Evangeline’s Costume Mansion around Halloween. Because holy shit they have some good stuff. (They sell the cheap shit too, but their steampunk/Victorian stuff looks so pretty and well-made! Like it was for regular use!) My uncle took me in there when he was looking for a shirt for his Obi Wan costume last year, because my little cousin (his grandson) was going as R2-D2.

http://www.evangelines.com/

Year-round, they only have the gift shop open, but there’s some cool things in there too! I found some really nice Deadpool magnets I wanna get my hands on eventually.

WWTH

I tend to think the vast majority of men who complain about circumcision don’t genuinely care about the issue but just use it as a cudgel against feminists. To my knowledge most men do not feel like their lives have been negatively effected by it. It usually comes up when anti feminists bring it up. Certainly MRAS don’t care about bodily autonomy.

Of course they only care about it when we’re involved! They have to keep up appearances when they’re around us to always seem like they’re better!

That’s why they puff out their chests whenever one of us walks in a room. They’re getting ready to blow a lot of hot air.

gilshalos
6 years ago

@guest No negative results so far, but none of the positive promises the tories gave when panicked either. I think it is due to most people being too young to remember how they ‘forgot’ promises they made in the last referendum.
I’d like an independant yorkshire in alliance with an Indy Scotland. We have much more in common than either of us have with London.

sunnysombrera
6 years ago

I live in the south of England, so I have no stake or interest in the whole independent Scotland thing, but wouldn’t an allied independent Scotland Yorkshire (Scotshire? Scorkshire?) be a bit awkward for the counties in between?

guest
guest
6 years ago

Not necessarily…. Yorkshire (current borders–sorry Alan!) is bigger than Vatican City and smaller than Lesotho, so not entirely unprecedented.

freemage
6 years ago

isidore13 | February 5, 2015 at 9:51 am

@Bina, I like how they always come in here like ‘feminism isn’t perfect you know!’ like we don’t already know that.

Actually, I’m gonna go further. “Feminism”, as far as I can tell, is perfect, which is to say, its premises are perfectly correct. These, for the benefit of trolls coming by, are twofold:

1: “Women are people, too.” Women deserve to be treated as the equals of men in all fields, including socially, professionally and legally, as well as any other arenas you’d care to come up with.

2: “We ain’t there yet.” Due to a combination of (relatively easily identified) formal systems and (much trickier) informal systems, collectively called “the patriarchy”, women are not currently treated in an equal fashion. That the patriarchy sometimes benefits some women (at the cost of others) or works to the detriment of some men (usually to the benefit of other men) does not invalidate the fact that these systems are all part of a collective societal state of being.

Now, some feminists are not perfect–since feminists are people, it would actually be rather impressive if any were truly perfect. Sometimes personal issues come to the fore and interfere in the work; sometimes the way forward isn’t even clear, and so there are sincere issues of dispute within the movement (easy example: how to address sex work in general).

However, this is different from anti-feminists who are horrible people, because anti-feminists are already working from faulty premises. When an anti-feminist gets something right (say, opposing cosmetic male infant circumcision), it’s not because of their initial premises, but rather, in spite of them.

Lady Mondegreen
6 years ago

that dude who discovered the comet

Yeah, no. That dude was on a team that discovered the comet.

He wore an inappropriate shirt. He was called out on it. He apologized.

And MRAs like you felt so threatened by that they got hysterical. Excuse me. Testerical.

guest
guest
6 years ago

He didn’t actually ‘discover’ anything, he worked on a team that landed a machine on a comet. If you want to talk about people who discovered comets, by themselves, you might look here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caroline_Herschel

Wouldn’t it have been great if someone had worn a shirt with her image on it?

emilygoddess - MOD
emilygoddess - MOD
6 years ago

Feminism hasn’t focused on anything important in the last 15 years? Are you American? Did you just miss Sandra Fluke, the ACA, the successive waves of abortion restrictions, and Hobby Lobby? Did you miss the support for Melissa Alexander? Does Wendy Davis not count as a feminist? Did you miss how even some of your feminist bogeymen, like Anita Sarkeesian, received credible threats to their safety just for having opinions while female?

Maybe if you didn’t get all your information on feminism from antifeminists, you wouldn’t be so fucking ignorant.

Honestly, What is gonna keep women from pursuing science careers more? A guy’s “behavior” of wearing a dumb shirt, or the CONSTANT fear-mongering insistence on the part of feminists that science is a completely hostile environment for women?

Probably the former. But what do I know? I just listen to other women when they talk about their experiences – I don’t have your manly “common sense” feels to guide me.

So yeah, when she says “the vast majority of men in the world do one or more of the above,” “the above” includes much less extreme things than just beating, killing, and raping.

Yeah, when someone wants you to be angry about a quote, and the quote is full of ellipses like that one was, shouldn’t that at least make you curious about the full quote? Critical reading and critical thinking: you’d think a member of the More Logical Sex would be able to apply them.

The oddest thing is that a number of that list, even in context stripped, mangled form isn’t all that bad.

Like the Susan Brownmiller ones. Some men raping helps enforce a systm where the threat of it is a problem.

Yeah, even with stuff like Dworkin’s comments about hetero sex, the quotes being mined come after pages and pages of reasoning and explaining definitions and so on. They’re not meant to summarize the author’s views on x and y; they’re part of much larger arguments.

Could the belief that most women prefer circumcised men come from all the porn MRA’s tend to watch?

Funnily enough, I think this is one claim that can be traced back to Sex And The City. Now, why so many men assume that a handful of fictional women speak for all real women is another question entirely, but it does help explain the MRAs’ irrational fixation on that show.

marinerachel
marinerachel
6 years ago

Even if it were true that feminism is rife with man-hate……. it’s not doing a very good job of oppressing men. Men have virtually all the world’s assets and power just like they did before feminism.

Circumcision is stupid. Harming or removing healthy tissue without the express desire and consent of the person it’s being done to is fundamentally wrong.

Now let’s stop pretending it has anything else in common with FGM. One is illegal because it’s vastly more harmful and the other was believed to have health benefits so of course it was available legally. Circumcision isn’t the norm in the US because men are disadvantaged. It’s the norm because people thought it was medically beneficial and are now unfamiliar with the alternative.

freemage
6 years ago

It’s also the norm because, in addition to the alleged hygiene benefits (which are almost nil in the West–they’re more prevalent if you go to countries without an abundance of running water), it was believed that circumcision would prevent young boys from masturbating.

Yeah, that’d be an interesting study to perform, but I seriously doubt there’s a significant difference there. But in Kellogg’s era, ‘self-harm’ was still one of the dominant euphemisms for pleasuring yourself.

Lady Mondegreen
6 years ago

@guest

He didn’t actually ‘discover’ anything, he worked on a team that landed a machine on a comet.

D’oh! Yes, of course. How quickly I forget.

.

I will admit to finding circumcised penii more aesthetically pleasing than non-circumcised ones.

And so what? I oppose circumcision, unless there’s a damn good medical reason for it. I don’t imagine for a minute that my subjective feels about other people’s naughty bits are more important than their bodily autonomy or a baby’s right to not be mutilated for no good goddamn reason.

Probably a lot of gay men of my generation feel the same way. Who cares what some people think looks better? That’s not important. It’s certainly not the reason boys were routinely circumcised throughout most of the 20th century.

marinerachel
marinerachel
6 years ago

I prefer the whole thing but, when I’m with a dude who was circumcised, I don’t refer to his penis as “mutilated cock meat”. Jesus.

Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

Finally caught up! And I need to point out that some of those quotes came from some pretty messed up feminists who’d be more than happy to see trans people women cease to exist. So I can quite safely say that yep, they’re idiots I don’t agree with. But, you know, there is that small matter of that having been, oh, 40 years ago? (Yes, it’s been that long since the 70s)

Question for the regulars, is it still okay to call someone a TERf or is that a bad word around here now? I didn’t catch enough of the latest flair up to be sure one that one?

Also, PUPPY CAM!!

Sadie G
6 years ago

Ugh. The “male infant circ TOTALLY IS EXACTLY LIKE FGM” argument. So fun… NOT.

I grew up in a non-circ household, and despite strict hygienic routines, most of my six brothers ended up having significant problems with the foreskin fusing closed and having to be (literally) ripped back. Multiple times. At an age when they most definitely could remember it happening. One of them got infected so badly he had to have an emergency circ.

Fast forward to me having boys of my own, and I chose circ because I never, ever wanted my boys to suffer that kind of pain at age 1,4,6,8…. Was it the right choice? I don’t know! The cult I was raised in was sooo messed up – anti-vaxx, home birth even if it kills you, rampant sexual abuse of the children, dragging girls around by their hair to get the demons out – I could write a book.

Maybe my brothers’ problems were connected to the sexual abuse. Maybe it was something else. I don’t know if I made the right decision because I’ll never have all the facts behind my poor siblings’ pain and fear, all I knew at the time (only 3.5 short years out of the cult and woefully ignorant about EVERYTHING) was I didn’t want my sons to suffer. So I tried to make the best decision for them I could, out of love for them, and naturally it was presented as a health option by the doctor (who, despite the MRAs, was not, I believe, seeking solely to line his own pockets by “mutilating” my child!)

That said, I’m not “pro-circ” when it comes to IMC! I’m very definitely anti- FGM, though, and it makes me insane when it is conflated to mean the same thing. On the one hand, Kellogg aside, today most parents who choose circ for their sons do it out of love – whether they have been told it is a health issue, or because they don’t want their kid being made to feel ashamed, self conscious, etc – not saying it’s a right decision, but that’s where most parents are coming from.

I’ve heard all the “twenty thousand nerve ending wahhhh” and I’m sorry for men who feel they were robbed, but the standard attack on IMC is to compare it to FGM and accuse parents of child mutilation. Which achieves NOTHING. Mad because PLanned Parenthood sponsored a local informational session on IMC at your hospital? Create a presentation about NOT circing and put on your own show. Educate those who have yet to make the decision, instead of (A) after-the-fact crucifixion of parents who were in no way trying to harm their kid and (B) a campaign to make circed men feel “mutilated” to fuel rage in them. That’s just counter productive.

As for IMC being equal to FGM – hell, just look at the intent, for starters: to ensure sex is so painful a woman will never willingly have it and thus will only have it when her husband *cough owner cough* rapes her. It destroys any chance of sexual pleasure, and often leads to a short life full of pain and infection ending in death at childbirth. Not quite what happens when IMC is performed…

I have absolutely NO issue with a movement that seeks to educate parents-to-be and to encourage leaving male boys intact. But they really don’t seem to understand that they are going about presenting their point in the worst possible way.

Sorry for the long post, I was in a huge FB argument over it the other day, and I was primed, LOL

Arctic Ape
Arctic Ape
6 years ago

“Mutilated cock meat” makes me think of roadkill poultry.

“Why did the rooster run across the road?”

“Who cares, let’s take it home.”

NonServiam
6 years ago

So where can I buy the knickers with the teeth on them??

duerstisms
6 years ago

LOL “bina” said something to the effect of “no I won’t have sex with you.” I never asked ANYONE on here to have sex, nor did I insinuate that I had problems with women, was circumcised and had a problem with it, was an mra, watched a ton of tv or porn, or any of the other presumptuous things you all have thrown at me.

You all made up these things up in your own minds lol.

duerstisms
6 years ago

I never compared circumcision to fgm. I CONTRASTED it. I said that it is illegal in the U.S. (as it SHOULD be, of course), yet male circumcision is standard operating medical procedure. You guys/gals are fuckin’ mean lol.

I think that the main problem here in America is that rich Republican bastards try to fuck with everyone’s lives, regardless of gender, sexuality, ideology, race or religion. No “ism” will ever change that. We gotta elect someone like Bernie Sanders for president, get republicans out of congress and stop worrying about trite, trivial, first world grievances. Y’know, like the shirts men wear, the porn men “tend to watch,” media portrayals of women in magazines, movies, video games, and porn, etc.

emilygoddess - MOD
emilygoddess - MOD
6 years ago

Duerstisms needs his nappie changed again.

Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

No you didn’t… MRAs cannot have Bernie Sanders! I really didn’t give a fuck that dude here was being a pain, because fuck it, you guys got this, but using Bernie Fucking Sanders to further your agenda? Well, now I have to comment, if only to say…

Regulars, lurkers, and other sensible people: odds are you’ll like Sanders’ politics, if you don’t already. So don’t let Mr. -isms Divide Us bias you against Sanders, go google him.

duerstisms
6 years ago

I bet you’d be pleased to know that i support a woman’s right to choose, infinite access to birth control, affirmative action for women, anti gender/race discrimination laws for the workplace, banning christian “conversion therapy” against gays/trans people…
fuck i’d practically BE a fem if their movement wasn’t so rife with hysterical bullshit…

duerstisms
6 years ago

I also think catcalling of women on the street is one of the most disgusting things you can do to someone, NO ONE is entitled to sex regardless of how much of a “nice guy” they are, and DON’T adhere to the binary gender norms unfairly dumped on us by our parents, pastors, teachers, bosses and administrators.

Still wanna call me an MRA?

emilygoddess - MOD
emilygoddess - MOD
6 years ago

“hysterical”

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

Bernie Sanders would never agree that male privilege is something “hysterical” feminists made up. “But I’m a progressive” does not mean you are exempt from misogyny.

duerstisms
6 years ago

Yet ANOTHER strawman! lol.

I do agree that there are some slight advantages that men have that women don’t, but there are also some advantages that WOMEN have that men don’t. I believe that most of the social disadvantages in our society are mostly due to things like class and race.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

Does this sound like someone who doesn’t believe in male privilege?

Let me add my strong belief that if the United States Senate had 83 women and 17 men rather than 83 men and 17 women, my strong guess is that a bill like this would never even make it to the floor.

http://vtdigger.org/2012/03/01/bernie-sanders-statement-on-womens-health-care/