[CONTENT WARNING: Misogynistic violence, rape apologia]
His complaint was a familiar one:
I think every girl is a type of slut, they are fussy with men nowadays, they do not give boys like us a chance.
You can find nearly identical laments in the profiles of self-described “nice guys” on OkCupid, on Men’s Rights blogs, and on forums for self-described “Incels” comisserating about their “involuntary celibacy” and what they see as the shallowness of young women.
But these words actually come from a video filmed by Ben Moynihan, a British teenager who was convicted of attempted murder earlier this week after stabbing three women in an attempt to take a sort of revenge upon the “weaker” gender he felt had made his life miserable by denying him sex. Another young man trying to punish women with violence for the “crime” of not dating him.
“I am still a virgin,” he wrote in one note. “Everyone is losing it before me, that’s why you are my chosen target.” In another note, he declared that “all women needs to die and hopefully next time I can gauge [sic] their eyes out.”
Moynihan’s twisted logic is of course eerily similar to that of Elliot Rodger, who went on a shooting spree in Isla Vista last spring in an attempt to “punish” women for their lack of interest in dating him, which he declared to be “a crime that can never be forgiven.”
Thankfully, Moynihan, unlike Rodger, was captured by police before he actually succeeded in killing anyone.
Not so thankfully, both of these men have their fans, including some amongst the usual suspects I write about on this blog. On the incel hangout slutHATE – the successor to PUAhate, on which Elliot Rodger was an occasional commenter – both Rodger and Moynihan have become heroes of a sort to some of the more bitter commenters. Or at least the source of much amusement.
In response to news about Moynihan’s trial, one slutHATEr posted a thread asking “Okay, which one of you did this?” “A new supreme gentleman rises,” wrote another in a different thread devoted to the would-be killer.
A third commenter, going by the name Homesick Alien, asked the question “Are Females days numbered?” listing an assortment of incels who’d killed “females” in an act of twisted “revenge” for their lackluster or nonexistent dating lives. In the comments, Homesick Alien chillingly wrote that
I’m sure someone somehow is rightfully very rageful currently planning the next shooting spree . We can only hope it’ll be more elaborate. Female entitlement is off the charts now, they are out of control,. It’s about time they are put in their fucking place.
Another posted a link to Rodger’s 150-page manifesto, suggesting that “it has the potential to motivate incels to damage the females.”
In a thread from several months ago, a slutHATEr calling himselt NewGenious119 went after fellow incels for not supporting shooting sprees enthusiastically enough.
Seriously, is there something mentally wrong with you? Thinking that a school full of sluts and frat stars getting slain by an incel is a bad thing is characteristic of a normalfag mindset. Our ONLY hope for ever getting to fuck multiple hot sluts is if there are enough incels in the western world who snap and cause bloodshed. It’s the only way that sluts and alphas will realize and accept that there are serious consequences for allowing so many males to live their lives in misery.
Emphasis mine.
As it turned out, there was no need for him to worry that other incels didn’t support spree killngs aimed at “sluts,” as assorted commenters soon let him know.
The rogue MRA and American-Women-Boycotter who calls himself John Rambo seconded his sentiment, writing
I wouldn’t do one myself. But I wouldn’t prevent one from happening if I knew it would as long as I wouldn’t die or a girl that willing to fuck me would. …
Honestly, I truly have very little sympathy for the victims.
A commenter calling himself Worthless Trash only had one complaint: that the death tolls weren’t higher.
I just wish these guys would make better plans and kill their targets and more of them, but sadly most of them have a weakened will-power after all the years of rejections and maybe bullying.
Also i don’t care if it will solve the problem or not, i just feel better hearing this, it’s like divine justice, they feel so superior but in the end they die like worms, just like they treat other guys, like worms, so in the end we are all equal.
Still others offered their assent:
I personally rejoice whenever I hear news of a school shooting.
The higher the death count, the better
i like their kill count high, because it’s always satisfying seeing someone arrogant going from rich to poor, beautiful too ugly from popular to dead
While a few commenters spoke out against the idea of mass murder as a reasonable response to a lack of dates, they were in the distinct minority.
And then there was this guy:
i support ERism [Elliot Rodgerism], but I would never do it myself, my brother is a doctor and his career would be ruined if our family name ever got tarnished
It would be a little easier to dismiss all this as merely internet dumbassery, were it not for the fact that Rodger went out and killed 6 people after posting similar comments on the message board that later became slutHATE.
While commenters like these are a distinct minority even in the sordid world of the manosphere, the sad and scary fact is that there are a frightening number of young and not-so-young men who have embraced one of the central assumptions of the murder-spree-supporting incels of slutHATE – the notion that women who put “nice guys” in the “friend zone” are committing some kind of crime against them, and deserve to be punished for it, individually or collectively.
You can see variations on this in assorted memes attacking women – much as Moynihan and Rodgers did – for supposedly preferring “bad boys” and assholes over the “nice guys” of the world.
Other “friend zone” memes are a bit darker.
And darker still:
And somehow even darker than that:
And we’re just begun to scratch the surface here.
In a followup post, I will look at the ways in which the rampant “slutbashing” of Men’s Rights Activists and other manosphere denizens helps to feed the toxic culture of aggrieved sexual entitlement that has contributed to violence against women.
Am I still the resident crazy person? Or did I lose that title when I poofed this time? Either way, I’ll bite.
In no particular order: abnormal =/= mental illness — Einstein was definitely not normal, anyone want to claim that being a genius is a mental disorder? Didn’t think so. Why not? Because if it’s a variant of normal, then any of us can be a genius. But things we don’t want to be? Must be a mental illness. Sorry but it doesn’t work like that, plenty of disgusting things are normal — how much of the US would be mentally ill if racism were a mental illness? Or if “self entitled little brat” was one? Cuz that’s the only thing this behavior is indicative of — a self entitled little brat willing to resort to violence.
Second, blarg, no. I don’t want him diagnosed with shit. I don’t need any more stigma thank you very much. No, really, the shame of having one of those “serious” mental illnesses is bad enough without the latest violent asshole being diagnosed in the media.
And third, I might need someone else to explain this better, but saying if he had a mental illnesses it’d make more sense? That is apologism on its own. By shifting the responsibility for his actions onto an entirely hypothetical mental illness, you’re saying that this is something us nut cases do, not something men do. Which diminishes the role of cultural sexism, and, really, diminishes his responsibility for his actions, since he wasn’t just being an entitled asshole, he was (at least partly) influenced by his (entirely hypothetical) mental illness.
Falconer — isn’t he just the cutest? I had been joking that he’s my baby, and my mother’s grand-tortoise, but then he went for his vet checkup, and peed on me, and I just rolled my eyes, grabbed the washcloth I’d brought since I knew he’d make a mess, and dried off. Somewhere around “aw, did you just poop in your bath water? Yes you did, come here poopybutt!” the whole parental thing set in…but then I had to grab him before he got under the sink!
At least I can put him back in his enclosure and don’t have to poopy train (that was a Freudian slip, I’m leaving it)
@mrex: You haven’t stepped on my toes. Other folks can speak for themselves.
My kiddos are almost two years old. I haven’t got any photos of them more recent than Christmas. I’ll see if I can get something tonight.
We stopped and “rescued” a box turtle from the middle of the road, oh, in the early 90s. First thing it did was pee all over me.
And there’s nothing like a nice, hot bath to induce a big old sense of relaxation, and encourage folks to relax all their muscles.
Katz: it isn’t and I never said it was. A person who is a danger to those around him and is so delusional that he thinks he needs to “punish” women for not sleeping with him needs to be locked away in a place where he can’t harm others and receive proper help. That place would be a mental institution.
I never said everyone who ends up in a psychiatric hospital is a potential murderer, in fact I have been in one myself long time ago for attempted suicide and know many people end up there for various reasons, often through no fault of their own.
It doesn’t change the fact that some of the people who end up there are potentially dangerous.
I might as well have said that Moynihan needed to see a psychiatrist before things got out of hand, that doesn’t that everyone who sees one is a anything like him.
Welp. We’ve officially moved into the mental-illness/ableism portion of the discussion, and I’ll just be a-nopin’ on out of this thread.
Peace, folks, it’s been fun! <3
Yyyup. I’ll be in the other thread if anyone wants me.
Everyone’s all
http://31.media.tumblr.com/cb2113334392dc83e2c19342ddf39d18/tumblr_mz7rkjS7B81qdm5ngo1_250.gif
Falconer — that goes double for tortoises, since most of them have the biology to store water for long periods, so when they’re in water they gulp it down and then release their bowels, pee, and their special water stores. Sort of a “w00t, water! Time to get rid of the old stuff!” So not just the nice relaxing water, but a long long evolutionary history of it being a really good idea.
PSA: if you spot a turtle/tortoise in the road, and can safely do so, just try to shoo it to the other side. Pick it up if it decides it isn’t gonna move, but then leave it where it was headed. Yeah, they’re ADORABLE, but most wild populations need all the breeding adults they can get, and us humans to stop putting roads in their way!
I have moved turtles off roads a number of times, including twice when the road was an interstate and the turtle was a snapper. When I was a kid I learned how to pick up a snapper without getting bitten, but you have to approach very cautiously and grab in just the right place.
Some guys think it’s fun to deliberately drive over a turtle. Another reason for not really wanting to identify as a man.
Wetherby
Goddamnit blockquote monster. That’s twice now.
@Leah, there is no cure for asshole. But sure, putting assholes like that amongst vulnerable people (already more likely to be victims of violence than the rest of the general population) is a great idea. Especially in a place those vulnerable people can’t escape. Nice. So people who are institutionalized because they can’t care for themselves or tried to commit suicide should be stuck with murderous creeps like this. Delusional he may be, but “curing” him wouldn’t make him hate women any less. He’d just be a better adjusted entitled prick who still hates women, but who has gained enough confidence to manipulate women into having sex with him and ending up in abusive relationships with him. Won.der.ful.
Aaaand today I learned some cool stuff about terrapins! Yay! Will have to tell this to my sister the next time the conversation turns to turtles, there are a number of them along the Trent River where she lives. She’s even found their eggs, dug up by raccoons or coyotes or some such. And tried to rebury them. No word on whether they hatched, or whether the baby turtles made it safely in before the ospreys found them.
And guys who drive over turtles deserve a special spot in hell, just like those who drive over snakes on purpose. I can’t tell you how many snakelets I’ve seen get run over around here (they like to warm themselves on the asphalt when the weather gets cooler in mid-fall). I’ve never caught anyone purposely hitting them, but if I ever do, I’m taking down his plates. All the local snakes are non-venomous, so there’s nothing to be afraid of…and the Eastern Fox Snake, which is endemic here, has threatened status, so that’s another reason to protect the babies. (Plus, I live in an old farmhouse, and I like having snakes around to help control the mice.)
Re “incel” status as mental illness: Sadly, this one’s a “nope”. It’s not fair to mentally ill people (including me, who have had bouts of major depression) to paint them all as dangerous, antisocial and destructive. Whatever mental problems these guys have, those are probably not the reason for their being a mope who has (temporary) trouble finding a girlfriend. I managed to be in a relationship with a boyfriend, and having sex, even while sick as a dog (and unmedicated!). If all that was ailing Moynihan et al were something a doc could prescribe medication for, that would be lovely, but no. This is something else. They do all seem in need of counselling, but it’s more along the lines of anger management and a gentle reintroduction to reality as the rest of the world knows it, and a reminder that you don’t HAVE to have sex to be happy and complete.
What these guys have is what a lot of perfectly sane straight guys have, maybe even MOST straight guys, to a varying degree. And no one would dream of calling a regular, entitled Joe Nextdoor “mentally ill”! And an echo chamber of other entitled, aggrieved, angry men (probably very young ones, at that) is precisely not what these dudes need to get a grip on reality. Look at the “counselling” they get there: All it does is enable them to justify their “need” to assault others! Just because other people sometimes have those frustrated ragey feelings, doesn’t mean they deserve to be validated in such a way that they end up catastrophically amplified. One Elliot Rodger is already too many, and the fact that he spent a lot of time on PUAhate before it became SlutHate is proof enough that the very nature of the forum is malignant.
And now, I need to chill out before I get as pissy as a picked-up tortoise. Here, have a wacky cat.
@ParadoxicalIntention
Hello! Actually, my comment was sparked by your linking to that thing way earlier in this thread. 🙂
“pissy as a picked-up tortoise”
That’s got a nice alliteration to it, I’m stealing that! Picked up isn’t nearly as pissy as when the vet tried to use this metal weird thing to force his tail out though. Yes it’s clean, no he doesn’t have diarrhea, which should be evidenced by the shit he just took on the exam table, and no, not even I can coax him to stick his tail out, and he likes me! (Seriously, he does, like he comes out when he sees me and comes out of his shell when I pet him and only gets momentially pissed when I splash his dirty shell)
I have an 11yr old and a 5 yr old. With both of them, I taught them that, whilst they may well rightfully experience anger and frustration, it was never acceptable to vent that frustration through violence (be it emotional or physical) on anyone. I encouraged them to take time outs, figure out why they were feeling this way and to verbalise their internal confusion constructively. The process is ongoing and gets more complex especially as my 11 yr old approaches puberty. These are my children and I bear responsibility for their emotional and moral development. There comes a point, however, where people become responsible for their own emotional self-management. I expect more from my 11yr old than I do from my 5 yr old and so it will go on…
Whilst I can understand that people are angry at not getting what they want, it seems a pretty basic principle though that you don’t get to hurt anyone because of that. So, I would have no interest in mollycoddling the fee-fees of these grown men because they are old enough to know better, old enough to know that hurting people is wrong and old enough to know you are not entitled to another person’s body.
Couple comments on an excellent list of how to We Hunted The Mammoth comment:
And as a further note, it’s probably best to keep in mind that your own personal experiences are not necessarily representative, or possibly even common, among your own demographics–universalizing your own life is always a bad idea, and it’s just worse when you do it in a way that overrides marginalized groups.
Simple is, in fact, better than florid or overwrought. “I didn’t mean to offend, but obviously I have. I’m going to take what you/all of you have said and consider it, and I am very sorry for crossing the line.”
Also, don’t be afraid, in a discussion where you’re in strong contention with another poster, to ask politely for a break so you can consider their arguments, and then step back rather than just continuing to hammer your point. (I did this in a discussion with Cassandrakitty about doxxing, and after consideration, realized she’d made a strong enough case to get me to flip around to her point of view.)
*********
On the “Nice Guy” discussion:
I’m starting to think these guys need to watch a marathon session of Groundhog Day until they finally get it. It’s not perfect from a feminist perspective, obviously–it wasn’t meant to be, and there’s a lot of the usual tropes in there.
But it’s very, very noteworthy that the way Bill Murray’s character finally ‘wins’ is not by making himself the perfect “nice guy”–giving gifts, pretending to enjoy all her favorite things, etc–but instead, by reforming himself. By the end of the movie, he’s playing music and helping people and encouraging young love, not to impress the romantic interest, but just because it makes him feel good about himself. And lo, and behold, he becomes an attractive person in the process.
Ah Ok Cupid. I’ve had the displease of meeting these guys on there before. When you don’t respond positively to their creepy IM’s they lay on the charm with poetic language like “stuck up bitch” and “fat slut”. Such a mystery why the ladies aren’t throwing themselves at their feet.
Tom, what I don’t get is people like you think that feminists are evil, incompetent, illogical, stupid, mean, have done EVERYTHING wrong and are personally responsible for every male who ever has been, is, or ever will be sad for any given length of time……….but feminists, with our constantly filled vaginas yet strikingly empty heads, who’ve demonstrably failed at every plan we’ve ever made are supposed to “fix it?” We’re already stupid and evil and insane but when it comes to any actual work being done, WE are the ones who are supposed to magically queef out a support system for the very men who hate us and would kill us if given the opportunity?
So if we’re illogical and useless and not libertarian enough AND if it’s a MAN’s right to be sexually satified, shouldn’t all this business about fixing men be YOUR job? WHY ARE YOU EVEN ASKING PEOPLE YOU THINK ARE WORTHLESS TO SOLVE YOUR PROBLEMS? That’s like saying, “I need someone who speaks English very clearly to do this voice over for a commercial…..so I’m going to hire a Japanese tourist who doesn’t speak a lick of English who’s only been in America two days and then complain that they’re doing it wrong and that they need to think of a better way to do it.”
You know what Inhope? I hope you all jerk each other off in the echo chamber so much that you drown in your own cumtub…..BUT YOU SHOULD FEEL COMPASSIONATE TOWARD ME EVEN THOUGH I SAID THAT! If you just call me an evil stupid illogical feminist then you’re making it worse. You have to take responsibility for the things *I* say and feel! After all, it was your crackpot philosophy that made me say and feel it! If you don’t let me safely talk about hoping you all die then I might do something like…actually hope that you all die. I may even try to come up with a way to personally guarantee you all die if you don’t show me compassion and let me talk about it with other people who also wish you’d die. I also want to be furnished with a crowd of other feminists who hate you so we can safely advise wach other on the best ways to kill you. Now THAT’s a solution! I won’t want you to die or actually try to kill you as long as YOU give me and other people who hate you a safe place to talk about killing you.
See how silly it sounds the other way around?
In summation, diz guy iz dildos.
ktrantingredhead
Tommy Boy’s not here anymore, but damn.
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii105/scoozna/misc/applause.gif
Very nice takedown.
Troll cleanup on aisle seven!
Because misogyny didn’t exist until the 1920s when those scandalous flapper dresses were worn while women were slutting it up at the speakeasy. Then it was all downhill from there. Back when our evil temptressy ankles were covered, violence against women didn’t even exist. Women back then weren’t asking to be shot and stabbed.
The trolls in this thread just keep getting creepier.
Okay, dumbcluck, first of all, sex workers are paid for sex, so unless men are literally offering to pay random women for sex all the time, I’m not buying your excuse that they’re just mistaking women for sex workers.
Secondly, sex workers supposed to be able to choose their partners. Granted, it doesn’t always work this way for them, what with trafficking, pimping, and poverty so often forcing them to service men whom they do not want to service. However, you seem to think that this way of treating sex workers is just a-okay, given that you’ve stated that “real prostitutes put out on request” and that “[w]omen are creating this problem” by dressing (allegedly) “like prostitutes…and dooming themselves” to (quoting from your first paragraph about porn) “rape, hatred, and indifference to the value of human life.” Do you even realize that you’re implying that it’s sex workers fault that men abuse them, rape them, and hate them? I mean, you’re saying that women bring these things on themselves by dressing “like prostitutes,” so you’re basically saying that that’s what prostitutes deserve.
Given your idea of what constitutes “legitimate criticism of slutty behavior,” which is that it makes men want to rape and murder you for not acting like a literal prostitute, who also apparently doesn’t deserve to have choices or agency, I’m not so sure that your input is valid here.