[CONTENT WARNING: Misogynistic violence, rape apologia]
His complaint was a familiar one:
I think every girl is a type of slut, they are fussy with men nowadays, they do not give boys like us a chance.
You can find nearly identical laments in the profiles of self-described “nice guys” on OkCupid, on Men’s Rights blogs, and on forums for self-described “Incels” comisserating about their “involuntary celibacy” and what they see as the shallowness of young women.
But these words actually come from a video filmed by Ben Moynihan, a British teenager who was convicted of attempted murder earlier this week after stabbing three women in an attempt to take a sort of revenge upon the “weaker” gender he felt had made his life miserable by denying him sex. Another young man trying to punish women with violence for the “crime” of not dating him.
“I am still a virgin,” he wrote in one note. “Everyone is losing it before me, that’s why you are my chosen target.” In another note, he declared that “all women needs to die and hopefully next time I can gauge [sic] their eyes out.”
Moynihan’s twisted logic is of course eerily similar to that of Elliot Rodger, who went on a shooting spree in Isla Vista last spring in an attempt to “punish” women for their lack of interest in dating him, which he declared to be “a crime that can never be forgiven.”
Thankfully, Moynihan, unlike Rodger, was captured by police before he actually succeeded in killing anyone.
Not so thankfully, both of these men have their fans, including some amongst the usual suspects I write about on this blog. On the incel hangout slutHATE – the successor to PUAhate, on which Elliot Rodger was an occasional commenter – both Rodger and Moynihan have become heroes of a sort to some of the more bitter commenters. Or at least the source of much amusement.
In response to news about Moynihan’s trial, one slutHATEr posted a thread asking “Okay, which one of you did this?” “A new supreme gentleman rises,” wrote another in a different thread devoted to the would-be killer.
A third commenter, going by the name Homesick Alien, asked the question “Are Females days numbered?” listing an assortment of incels who’d killed “females” in an act of twisted “revenge” for their lackluster or nonexistent dating lives. In the comments, Homesick Alien chillingly wrote that
I’m sure someone somehow is rightfully very rageful currently planning the next shooting spree . We can only hope it’ll be more elaborate. Female entitlement is off the charts now, they are out of control,. It’s about time they are put in their fucking place.
Another posted a link to Rodger’s 150-page manifesto, suggesting that “it has the potential to motivate incels to damage the females.”
In a thread from several months ago, a slutHATEr calling himselt NewGenious119 went after fellow incels for not supporting shooting sprees enthusiastically enough.
Seriously, is there something mentally wrong with you? Thinking that a school full of sluts and frat stars getting slain by an incel is a bad thing is characteristic of a normalfag mindset. Our ONLY hope for ever getting to fuck multiple hot sluts is if there are enough incels in the western world who snap and cause bloodshed. It’s the only way that sluts and alphas will realize and accept that there are serious consequences for allowing so many males to live their lives in misery.
Emphasis mine.
As it turned out, there was no need for him to worry that other incels didn’t support spree killngs aimed at “sluts,” as assorted commenters soon let him know.
The rogue MRA and American-Women-Boycotter who calls himself John Rambo seconded his sentiment, writing
I wouldn’t do one myself. But I wouldn’t prevent one from happening if I knew it would as long as I wouldn’t die or a girl that willing to fuck me would. …
Honestly, I truly have very little sympathy for the victims.
A commenter calling himself Worthless Trash only had one complaint: that the death tolls weren’t higher.
I just wish these guys would make better plans and kill their targets and more of them, but sadly most of them have a weakened will-power after all the years of rejections and maybe bullying.
Also i don’t care if it will solve the problem or not, i just feel better hearing this, it’s like divine justice, they feel so superior but in the end they die like worms, just like they treat other guys, like worms, so in the end we are all equal.
Still others offered their assent:
I personally rejoice whenever I hear news of a school shooting.
The higher the death count, the better
i like their kill count high, because it’s always satisfying seeing someone arrogant going from rich to poor, beautiful too ugly from popular to dead
While a few commenters spoke out against the idea of mass murder as a reasonable response to a lack of dates, they were in the distinct minority.
And then there was this guy:
i support ERism [Elliot Rodgerism], but I would never do it myself, my brother is a doctor and his career would be ruined if our family name ever got tarnished
It would be a little easier to dismiss all this as merely internet dumbassery, were it not for the fact that Rodger went out and killed 6 people after posting similar comments on the message board that later became slutHATE.
While commenters like these are a distinct minority even in the sordid world of the manosphere, the sad and scary fact is that there are a frightening number of young and not-so-young men who have embraced one of the central assumptions of the murder-spree-supporting incels of slutHATE – the notion that women who put “nice guys” in the “friend zone” are committing some kind of crime against them, and deserve to be punished for it, individually or collectively.
You can see variations on this in assorted memes attacking women – much as Moynihan and Rodgers did – for supposedly preferring “bad boys” and assholes over the “nice guys” of the world.
Other “friend zone” memes are a bit darker.
And darker still:
And somehow even darker than that:
And we’re just begun to scratch the surface here.
In a followup post, I will look at the ways in which the rampant “slutbashing” of Men’s Rights Activists and other manosphere denizens helps to feed the toxic culture of aggrieved sexual entitlement that has contributed to violence against women.
@katz – Yep, totally on board with you, especially this:
@ParadoxicalIntention
This is what really leapt out at me from Elliot Rodger’s “manifesto” – the fact that despite an unusual amount of travelling and cross-cultural opportunities for someone of his age he seemed to have no interests outside his self-created bubble beyond things like World of Warcraft or Star Wars. With his looks, background and advantages, he was in a much stronger position than many so-called “incels” to actually turn himself into an interesting human being – but the onus was firmly on him, and he didn’t take that opportunity.
@Bina
Absolutely. I do sympathise with the frustrations of Tom and View Askew up to a (very very limited) point because I do genuinely know what it’s like to feel completely rejected and unattractive. But there are two ways of responding to this – either descend into a pointless spiral of frustration and anger, possibly egged on by the thoroughly toxic influence of people in a similar position (sadly, much easier to facilitate now than it was when I was in my early twenties), or to do what you and I did, which is engage in a period of sometimes pretty painful self-examination, devising plausible and evidence-backed reasons for our lack of success, challenging ingrained prejudices held by ourselves and others and letting the highly individual and hugely worthwhile human being underneath all these anxieties finally blossom and flourish.
All of these many, many delusions – that women only go for “bad boys” (not in my experience: I can think of just one of my many, many female friends who regularly dated highly questionable partners with disastrous results), that women over 25 are a waste of time (absolutely not in my experience, which is that in fact they tend to be a lot more comfortable with themselves physically, emotionally and sexually), and that “if only I was good-looking and had lots of money, people would flock to me as though I was a giant magnet” (yeah, because that worked out so well for Elliot Rodger) – aren’t just wrong but totally self-defeating.
But they believe all this crap because it takes away responsibility from themselves to become better human beings.
I’m doing this and I’m starting to see the finished product emerge out of said cocoon, and let me tell you it is so much worth the effort. Basing your self esteem on yourself and not how others respond to you gives a glorious sense of freedom and strength. You’re more likely to treat others better if they slight you, because you’re not reacting to a wounded ego, you’re reacting to an understanding that they probably have an issue of their own. You’re more likely to treat others better in general because self love is a positive cycle and you naturally want to pass on your happiness. This in turn makes you more attractive to people. Instead of doing what the incels and Nice Guys do which is to whine about how women aren’t making them feel good. Like the MRAs complaining that feminism isn’t solving their problems for them. Thy both want women to coddle and mother them instead of taking their own responsibilities into their own hands.
Note: I’m not saying that anyone who struggles with self esteem is likely to not treat others well. I realise that even at my own lowest points I’m still kind and considerate to people and people who don’t have a lot of confidence are often very empathetic towards others who are in a bind. I’ve heard before the phrase “if you can’t love yourself you can’t love others” which is utter damaging bullshit and one day I will write an essay about everything that’s wrong with that sentence, namely that it’s sadness shaming. I hope you guys understand what I’m trying to say in this comment.
Also, reading the high school stories makes me feel grateful that my high school was girls only.
Jumping on the DBT thing, as I’ve done skills coaching for women with borderline personality disorder for over two years…
I believe DBT would recognize every feeling that these men have as valid. However, the emotion should probably act as a motivator to change either their actions and behaviors that cause these problems or their relationship to the problem. Wallowing in a sexually violent fantasy would never be indicated; however, the therapist might validate the intense anger and wanting to hurt somebody else and then pick apart exactly what leads up to having that thought and suggest interventions along the way before it gets to that point. Skills like fact-checking or radical acceptance would be instrumental on the way to changing. And yes, it’s the man in this situation who needs to change.
Ah Middle School. The guys like Mouse and Bina describe are the same guys who were treating me like shit in the hallways and whatnot. Really irritated me that girls sought out attention from guys like that. Took me awhile to appreciate that: a) people grow up and preferences change; and b) *everyone* is working through their own shit, and my personal anxieties weren’t unique.
One thing that would have really helped back then (pre-Internet) is for me to read a forum like this. In middle school and, to a lesser extent high school, girls were an alien life form and, because of my lack of self-confidence, I had no idea what they were thinking because I was too shy to talk to them (which – of course was my real problem). I think reading accounts like those here of the sorts of turmoil girls were going through would have helped me bridge the gap. I mean, I’m sure I knew on an intellectual level that they must have their problems too – but without actual stories, I didn’t internalize it. (Adolescents aren’t necessarily great at empathy – so maybe I’m not sure exactly how much it would have helped at the time.)
I had an interesting conversation with a classmate at our 25 year reunion. Like me, she was kind of a wallflower in school. I was surprised to find that she was too shy to talk to me much because she felt like I was part of the popular crowd — a group I was acquainted with, but didn’t really feel part of. Anyway, so much wasted anxiety. And too bad – she’s a great person now, I suspect we would have gotten along famously back then.
A question to Tom, Viewaskew, or anyone who agrees with them.
Supposing your ridiculous proposition – that women are to blame for frustrated men going on murderous rampages because of “hypergamy” or whatever – is true…
What exactly are women supposed to do? Have sex with any man who asks? Never reject anyone, regardless of their own personal circumstances (relationship status, sexual orientation or just – the horror! – lack of physical attraction)? There is no way you can hold that view.
Unless… you really don’t view women as people. In which case, the onus is on you to stop dehumanizing women.
As a man with a chronic lack of confidence, which has and continues to pose serious problems in my life, I understand how debilitating fear of rejection can be. As someone who has been a feminist from a very young age, and who has always had lots of female friends, I find the idea of women being forced (or even expected) to have sex with anyone to be abhorrent.
I was convinced for years that women found me unattractive, and yeah, it hurt. Sometimes I still feel that way despite being in a relationship for the past 11 years. But I realize that it’s a part of my own personality to have those feelings. I can’t imagine how bitter and toxic a person I would be if I blamed women for those feelings instead of looking inside myself.
If you want to make a connection with a woman, you won’t get anywhere until you truly understand that she is a person. And I don’t mean paying lip service to the idea as a “game” tactic. Until then, you will literally never find what you are looking for,
Yeah, I’m with you, katz, but I just don’t answer mrex because…I don’t like zir, I guess, and I can’t tell if zie’s trolling or just someone I don’t like.
I need to research my pronouns, guys, because I am pretty sure I just borked those up something terrible.
Nope, Mouse Farts, zie/zir looks good to me.
Hugs for everyone who ever got laughed at by assholes in school.
Yeah, I’m on board, katz.
Sometimes, when my toddlers throw fits, the worst thing I could do is give them attention for it.
As for me, I spent high school moping about because I thought girlfriends were something that just happened, like, spend enough time with someone and bam, it would just kind of grow into kissing.
Never occurred to me to stab anyone because I had a very passive idea of romance.
It only looks okay because I worded it very carefully – I kept wanting to say, like, “zis” and “zey” because, habit lol.
XD I think a lot of us were kind of baffled by how all that worked. I knew boyfriends were a thing that other people had, and I knew I wanted one, but I hadn’t the slightest idea how to go about such things, and wouldn’t have known what to do with one once I’d landed it. Like, do you need boy bait? Is there fishing line involved?
I didn’t actually think that far, now that I think about it. I just sort of stopped at “everybody else has a boyfriend and I want one too but good Christian girls don’t do that”. And all my elaborate fantasies went something like this:
“So okay, me and XYBOY and…a bunch of other people I guess…are kidnapped by the government! Because, like…we have a genetic marker for superpowers or something? I don’t know, that isn’t the point. The point is, we are paired off and married for the good of everyone! BAM, now we are married so it is okay, nay required, for us to make with sexy makeouts, and Jesus is okay with it!” And then when it came time for the actual sexytimes, I had no actual idea what was involved in that sort of thing and also it was kind of scary, so at that point my entire fantasy would tastefully fade to black and pick up the morning after.
I had a similar reunion with someone I asked out when I was seventeen and she was sixteen – she said no, so I assumed that that was that and never asked her again. Many, many years later I found out that she said no not because she never wanted to go out with me but because it wasn’t convenient at that particular time. In fact, she may even have explained this then (I suspect she probably did), but I just heard NO in bolded block caps and everything else sotto voce.
But in many ways I’m glad it didn’t work out – I don’t think either of us was really ready.
Nope…nope, there isn’t. And I suspect that may have been the whole idea: To put the shyest girl in class on the spot and make her look like a fool, because she’s bound to flub it completely. Hindsight being 20/20 (and me always needing glasses, grrr), I now realize that the best way of responding to that question was not yes or no, but “Tell him to ask me himself, if it’s so important to him!” But who thinks of that when they’re a 12-year-old deer in the headlights?
Yup, this sounds familiar, too. In fact, the guy who called me the bad name in front of a roomful of other kids waiting for the bus was one of those, now that I think of it. And of course, I was the social outcast, so it was “don’t look at me, you fuckin’ mutt!”
And yes, to this day, I have trouble telling guys I like them. After 35 years, you’d think I could learn how to outgrow that, but damn, it’s HARD. And it’s made my life so much worse than it could/should have been. Not all of the blame for that is on him, but I never did let him off the hook for it, either. And when I got the chance, a dozen years later, to get my revenge on him, I did. I saw him waiting in my doctor’s office, and I glared at him. Just looked (which is what he once told me not to do!), and looked at him like he was a pile of shit that some asshole had left behind on the chair. And I’m certain he remembered, because he avoided eye contact, went all red and shrank down in the chair. And I thought to myself: Yes, that’s how I felt back then, too. Let him have a bit of it back. It’s little enough for all the pain he caused me.
And then I was called in, and I went, not looking back and feeling like a bit of the weight had finally been lifted off me after all that time. But every time there’s a guy I like and I’m not sure if he feels the same, my default is to duck and dive. And that part I’m still working on. Since I’m an introvert, it’s a lot slower and more laborious for me than it would be for someone more naturally outgoing.
It’s at times like this that I wish comprehensive sex ed were mandatory, and that part of it would be teaching boys not to humiliate girls. Right now, they literally get away with murder. And sexual entitlement is a huge part of that.
Hindsight is 20/20, and all, but if I’d made friends well enough to go visit their houses, I might have got on better.
But don’t talk to me about parties. I couldn’t hear myself think at the parties I went to in middle school. And in college? OONTZ OONTZ OONTZ OONTZ all night long, and dancing and everything. After shagging themselves out at the party, how was anybody supposed to feel like a literal shag?
@Bina: Universe, let me show these jackasses’ behavior to their mothers!
Hah. The voice I developed to talk to people over the OONTZ OONTZ OONTZ is now my Stern Dad Voice ™.
Yeah, that was pretty much it. But since this guy’s mother wasn’t around, I just fed it all silently back to him. I imagine he didn’t enjoy having to swallow it.
“…they do not give guys like us a chance…buuuuhuuuuu!”
It’s chilling how this guy who belongs in a mental institution sounds exactly like your typical butthurt Nice Guy. My heart goes out for the young women who have to deal with these sickos.
What’s even more sad is that had guys like Rodger and Monihan lowered their standards within more reasonable parameters and acted a little more normal. they’d probably been able to get laid.
The problem is that PUA garbage teaches young men that they all derserve a HB8 and that any woman who doesn’t live up to their riddiculously high stadards is “ugly”. They’re taught to approach a women if she has the right age and her “rating” is high enough, as opposed to approaching one who has shown signs of interest. I have never seen any PUA advice about how to read womens body language or make them feel comfortable on the first date. Empathy does not exist in PUA-land.
I think all of us “ugly” and “old” woman shall be thankful that we don’t have to deal with these socioaths.
As a man, and arguably previous douchebag, I would like to confirm that feminism has absolutely reduced my levels of stress and anxiety related to women and dating, and completely eradicated feelings of entitlement and resentment towards women as a group and individual women who have rejected me. The thing that did not help was hanging out with other bitter guys, talking about how evil women are for not fucking us.
@dhag85
I would like to give you huggles and a cheeksmooch. Since I am unsure how you feel about these offerings, here, have a brownie. I made it myself.
@Mouse Farts
You don’t need it, but it can help. This is what I thought of when you mentioned “boy bait.”
http://smittenkitchen.com/blog/2009/07/blueberry-boy-bait/
Though, I should point out that recipe doesn’t just work on boys. It attracts just about everybody because blueberries…and butter…and CAKE!
I think it’s been said before, but perhaps one of the reasons a girl wouldn’t date a boy who later becomes a murderer is because he seemed like the kind of guy who would one day become a murderer.
@Mouse Farts
Huggles and cheeksmooches sound awesome, but.. I can’t say no to a brownie. Thanks!
Every middle school party in the early eighties: FREEBIRD TURNED ALL THE WAY UP TO THIRTY. I hate having to yell over loud music. My voice gives out easily and gets all hoarse.
Bina, that is a great ending to that story. I love that all it took was a look. At least he had enough adult awareness to remember, and be ashamed.
One of my high school tormentors messaged me 15 years after graduation on match.com. He obviously didn’t recognize me, and was all “oh hai, you’re from ? I grew up there too. I think you’re very attractive, want to meet for coffee?” I didn’t let on I knew, but as soon as the conversation progressed to email and he saw my real name, he skedaddled, probably out of embarrassment.
dhag85, I would also like to offer you a high five and baked goods. Eclair?
@Buttercup Q. Skullpants
Haha, this made me remember that Dion McGregor sleeptalk thingy with the Food Roulette/Poisoned Éclairs. That’ll keep me giggling for a few hours. Hi5!
By the way I have no idea what eclairs really are, but I’ll have one. :p