[CONTENT WARNING: Misogynistic violence, rape apologia]
His complaint was a familiar one:
I think every girl is a type of slut, they are fussy with men nowadays, they do not give boys like us a chance.
You can find nearly identical laments in the profiles of self-described “nice guys” on OkCupid, on Men’s Rights blogs, and on forums for self-described “Incels” comisserating about their “involuntary celibacy” and what they see as the shallowness of young women.
But these words actually come from a video filmed by Ben Moynihan, a British teenager who was convicted of attempted murder earlier this week after stabbing three women in an attempt to take a sort of revenge upon the “weaker” gender he felt had made his life miserable by denying him sex. Another young man trying to punish women with violence for the “crime” of not dating him.
“I am still a virgin,” he wrote in one note. “Everyone is losing it before me, that’s why you are my chosen target.” In another note, he declared that “all women needs to die and hopefully next time I can gauge [sic] their eyes out.”
Moynihan’s twisted logic is of course eerily similar to that of Elliot Rodger, who went on a shooting spree in Isla Vista last spring in an attempt to “punish” women for their lack of interest in dating him, which he declared to be “a crime that can never be forgiven.”
Thankfully, Moynihan, unlike Rodger, was captured by police before he actually succeeded in killing anyone.
Not so thankfully, both of these men have their fans, including some amongst the usual suspects I write about on this blog. On the incel hangout slutHATE – the successor to PUAhate, on which Elliot Rodger was an occasional commenter – both Rodger and Moynihan have become heroes of a sort to some of the more bitter commenters. Or at least the source of much amusement.
In response to news about Moynihan’s trial, one slutHATEr posted a thread asking “Okay, which one of you did this?” “A new supreme gentleman rises,” wrote another in a different thread devoted to the would-be killer.
A third commenter, going by the name Homesick Alien, asked the question “Are Females days numbered?” listing an assortment of incels who’d killed “females” in an act of twisted “revenge” for their lackluster or nonexistent dating lives. In the comments, Homesick Alien chillingly wrote that
I’m sure someone somehow is rightfully very rageful currently planning the next shooting spree . We can only hope it’ll be more elaborate. Female entitlement is off the charts now, they are out of control,. It’s about time they are put in their fucking place.
Another posted a link to Rodger’s 150-page manifesto, suggesting that “it has the potential to motivate incels to damage the females.”
In a thread from several months ago, a slutHATEr calling himselt NewGenious119 went after fellow incels for not supporting shooting sprees enthusiastically enough.
Seriously, is there something mentally wrong with you? Thinking that a school full of sluts and frat stars getting slain by an incel is a bad thing is characteristic of a normalfag mindset. Our ONLY hope for ever getting to fuck multiple hot sluts is if there are enough incels in the western world who snap and cause bloodshed. It’s the only way that sluts and alphas will realize and accept that there are serious consequences for allowing so many males to live their lives in misery.
Emphasis mine.
As it turned out, there was no need for him to worry that other incels didn’t support spree killngs aimed at “sluts,” as assorted commenters soon let him know.
The rogue MRA and American-Women-Boycotter who calls himself John Rambo seconded his sentiment, writing
I wouldn’t do one myself. But I wouldn’t prevent one from happening if I knew it would as long as I wouldn’t die or a girl that willing to fuck me would. …
Honestly, I truly have very little sympathy for the victims.
A commenter calling himself Worthless Trash only had one complaint: that the death tolls weren’t higher.
I just wish these guys would make better plans and kill their targets and more of them, but sadly most of them have a weakened will-power after all the years of rejections and maybe bullying.
Also i don’t care if it will solve the problem or not, i just feel better hearing this, it’s like divine justice, they feel so superior but in the end they die like worms, just like they treat other guys, like worms, so in the end we are all equal.
Still others offered their assent:
I personally rejoice whenever I hear news of a school shooting.
The higher the death count, the better
i like their kill count high, because it’s always satisfying seeing someone arrogant going from rich to poor, beautiful too ugly from popular to dead
While a few commenters spoke out against the idea of mass murder as a reasonable response to a lack of dates, they were in the distinct minority.
And then there was this guy:
i support ERism [Elliot Rodgerism], but I would never do it myself, my brother is a doctor and his career would be ruined if our family name ever got tarnished
It would be a little easier to dismiss all this as merely internet dumbassery, were it not for the fact that Rodger went out and killed 6 people after posting similar comments on the message board that later became slutHATE.
While commenters like these are a distinct minority even in the sordid world of the manosphere, the sad and scary fact is that there are a frightening number of young and not-so-young men who have embraced one of the central assumptions of the murder-spree-supporting incels of slutHATE – the notion that women who put “nice guys” in the “friend zone” are committing some kind of crime against them, and deserve to be punished for it, individually or collectively.
You can see variations on this in assorted memes attacking women – much as Moynihan and Rodgers did – for supposedly preferring “bad boys” and assholes over the “nice guys” of the world.
Other “friend zone” memes are a bit darker.
And darker still:
And somehow even darker than that:
And we’re just begun to scratch the surface here.
In a followup post, I will look at the ways in which the rampant “slutbashing” of Men’s Rights Activists and other manosphere denizens helps to feed the toxic culture of aggrieved sexual entitlement that has contributed to violence against women.
Dude, viewaskew, I am not sure what you’re trying to accomplish here.
Then wouldn’t the solution be to find other sources of validation? To maybe examine why that’s so important to them, and work on assigning value to something that actually has value, rather than sex?
Having sex does not garner respect from “both genders.” Having sex garners respect from a subset of people who have internalized some very damaging ideas about what makes someone a “man.” Feminism is actively trying to change that. We think that’s awful and limiting and horribly unhealthy.
I feel pretty confident saying that that is not at all what causes fear of rejection, dude. We ladies fear rejection, too. I was absolutely terrified of it for most of my formative years, and nobody was calling me creepy. That’s just human. If we stop calling people creepy (when they are in fact being creepy) they will not magically become totes okay with rejection. People don’t get labelled “creepy” or “desperate” just for failing. You know that. C’mon, now.
The only way to eliminate the fear of rejection is to eliminate rejection – if women aren’t allowed to reject anyone, ever, then nobody has to be afraid, right? That is literally the only way to take “fear of rejection” out of the equation. And underneath all of the rhetoric, that is what Nice Guys want. But that is a completely indefensible position that nobody wants to own up to, even to themselves, so they hide it under all this stuff about bullying and creep-shaming and whatever.
Anyone know a lady hater named Francis Bacone?
He’s showed up on a skeptic/atheist forum, copy-pasted something from RoK and failed to attribute it to it’s writer or source.
There are probably a dozen out-and-misogynous dudes on the forum who will welcome him warmly but for the moment people are just shaking their head and one outed him for plagiarizing (unless he wrote the stuff he copy-pasted from Roosh the Doosh’s site.)
*chimes in from the non-binary corner of the room* we fear rejection too. And hey straight cis men? If the worst rejection you fear is being laughed at, you’ve got it easy. Nobody’s gonna beat, rape, or kill you just for daring to ask…you know, no, forget the asking, back up to “just for daring”…to be you.
*hands out stickers* here dudes, you need these — “my biggest fear is not getting laid, aren’t I lucky I have hands?”
They do. Many many women ask men for sex or relationships. But like it’s been said, the incels that whine about not getting laid also have ridiculously high standards for a sexual partner. They’re looking for hot women, nothing else. To them, the average looking women that approach men are invisible, or even desperate and pathetic.
Anger is not an acceptable response to rejection. True, you can’t turn emotions on and off like a tap, but if you find yourself getting angry over ordinary life experiences like being rejected for something, you need to look into options like cognitive behavioral therapy, because your reaction is not healthy.
Because it’s not the world’s fault for failing to accommodate you. It’s not possible to live life without ever being rejected from something; even if you really, bona fide get rejected more than everyone else, that’s statistically something that has to happen to someone. Unless you’re swimming in entitlement, it shouldn’t be that traumatic. It’s part of life.
And yes, if you get angry whenever you get rejected, the reasonable response from everyone else is not to show compassion and try to protect you from ever facing rejection, but rather to stay away from you and maybe call the cops, because you are probably dangerous.
Viewaskew,
Women don’t call women creepy to be mean to poor oppressed men. We say that about men who violate boundaries and can’t take no for an answer. As Margaret Atwood said “men are afraid women are going to laugh at them. Women are afraid men are going to kill them” So yeah, we talk. We warn other women when we detect red flags. We commiserate about how it feels to be unsure about whether a creepy guy is going to escalate to a violent guy. Why should we be protecting the feelings of someone who doesn’t respect boundaries and makes us feel unsafe. If a man is consistently being called creepy, that’s not a sign that women are mean. That’s a sign he needs to change his behavior and his attitude.
This whole idea that “women” just have it so easy and can get all the sexy they want is horseshit. People who say that are only talking about one type of woman everyone else doesn’t even exist, but I’m supposed to care that some unattractive guy can’t get laid by a hot chick? WTFever.
Boo hoo, attractive women have sex with attractive men. What a crime against humanity.
Gah! STILL a page behind *grumble*
There is so much THIS on the page I’ve just finished, to try to quote it all would be a teal deer in itself, not to mention excessively tempting the blockquote monster but I just have to give props to mildlymagnificent and Wetherby for these:
THESE!!! I *can* so so so so so even! Because I have been trying for a couple of weeks now to put these very things into words and failing.
Now, on to the next page!
cupisnique
I think it’s partly that, and it’s partly the idea that these men have that because women get so much attention from other men, it must mean that women are bending over all the time for the guys who message them, because fucked-up MRA/PUA/”incel” logic dictates that if a man gives a woman attention, she is obligated to fuck him (Unless she’s a “Slut” who won’t fuck anyone who asks).
Where they fail is in that they don’t realize how much of that attention is negative, and how much shit women have to wade through before they find positive attention.
Tommy Boy brought it up earlier, and I linked him to this thread on Reddit, that I think I’ll have to link to anyone who makes this argument now:
http://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/1uqym6/as_a_guy_i_wanted_to_know_what_it_was_like_to_be/
It’s not “easier” for women to date. To quote this again: “Men fear that women will laugh at them. Women fear men will kill them.”
We also have to wade through the inappropriate “compliments”, the dick pics, the harassment, and the calls of “Bitch!”, “Slut!”, “Whore!” when we don’t immediately drop to our knees and wrap our lips around a man’s dick because he was nice to us.
Yeah, we can find good people on dating sites, lots of women do. But there’s just so much raw sewage that men don’t have to even bother with.
@ Cupinisque
In my experience you’ll also have sex with unattractive men if we show you the modicum of decency and make you laugh.
That’s the irony of the situation. Girls seem much less hung up on physical attributes in men. Ok, you might expect some minimum standards of looking after ourselves, but nothing a few sit ups can’t take care of. Generally though just treating women like regular human beings and taking an interest in you is all that’s required.
In fact you set the hurdles so low it’s amazing every bloke can’t meet them but says a lot about what you have to put up with that you’re so pleased if we just manage to scrape those!
For reasons I am having trouble articulating, this comment is making me really uncomfortable.
Maybe even kind of insulted – but I’m not really sure why.
I dunno, I feel like you mean well, but this is a little too close to the “put in enough kindness coins and sex falls out” approach. Maybe I’m reading it wrong.
It’s not just you. Seconding big time.
It’s taking the argument from the Nice Guy (“women always try to date up/have too high of standards, so I can’t get laid”) and flipping it (“women have such low standards, how the hell can you not get laid, amirite?!”)
Wayyyyy not cool.
@Viewaskew
This is just wrong. I say this as a woman who *had* a LOT of options in my youth. I’ll tell you why it’s wrong: In high school, I had exactly one boyfriend and it lasted for less than one semester. One. Before that, I was sure I’d never have a boyfriend. After, I was sure I’d never have a boyfriend again. I was wrong, too (I didn’t have any anger toward boys or men, though, so WTF?)
Then, I went into the military and BAM! Options and opportunities galore! It was just like magic because I stumbled into it unexpectedly. The difference? I was in a different situation with loads of single men my own age. And a whole lot of them were willing to interact with me as if I was a person and an equal* and it was heaven.
The point is, before I hit the USAF, I didn’t have any more options than any given guy. I was of average attractiveness and felt invisible. I know that feel. Most of the guys I hooked up with in the military were also pretty average looking, some I even started out thinking of as downright ugly, but as I got to know them, they got more and more attractive. I wouldn’t have traded my hookups with those guys for the hottest guy on base**.
*This is KEY right here! Very sexy.
**Making it all about looks means losing out on a lot of great opportunities!
Oh thank you, those were the words I was looking for!
Hi Mouse
Certainly didn’t mean to make you uncomfortable, so sorry about that.
I definitely don’t subscribe to the idea that merely being decent to women entitles you to anything. The point I’m trying to articulate (apparently not that well) is that guys who believe that women are only interested in some hypothetical Adonis types are mistaken. In my experience women aren’t that shallow. They are interested in all sorts of attributes in guys and that the idea that “hawt girls” are only interested in “hawt guys ” is a myth.
Hope that makes sense.
Alan, regardless of your point, how about not telling a bunch of women what women are like?
Hi Watermelon
And apologies once again.
I’m not suggesting women have low standards but perhaps I can try to explain it this way.
There was an article recently where a woman described some hypothetical “zeta” male (I’m not one for such descriptors but I digress). The article set out a list of ideal attributes in a guy.
The point was that these just seemed to be the basic minimum requirements to be a normal decent human being.
It seems to me that if these attributes are so rare they’re seen as some benchmark for perfection then it’s a sad state of affairs.
Any better, or would it be best if I shut up now before I dig myself in any deeper?
I do see what you’re saying, and that is indeed better, but that original comment was pretty bad. I can’t speak for anyone else, but for me, saying “you know, I see what you mean, and I worded that really badly, I see where I screwed up” would go a long way. Just, you know, my two cents.
Off topic and TMI, maybe, but I get unreasonably proud of myself any time I say “hey, that wasn’t cool” in a reasonable manner, and then someone agrees that it was indeed uncool. I think it’s because I am still new to the concept that communicating about (and enforcing) boundaries is not just okay, but awesome. I had a fucked up childhood. Just saying “no bueno” to anything at all makes me anxious, every time. /oversharing
Hi Katz
I should probably set up some sort of apology hot key.
I certainly wouldn’t presume to second guess the experience of women. Obviously I’m not in a position to do that. I can only speak to my experiences and comment on how women describe their own expectations.
All I’m trying to say is that I disagree with the proposition some men articulate that women are only interested in physical attributes and/or financially exploiting men.
Apologies once again if I expressed myself clumsily.
I know that one anecdote isn’t data and all, but… Lesbian from a homophobic family who went to a fundamentalist religious high school here. To say that my options were limited would be an understatement – my options didn’t exist.
I never felt anger towards women or men.
Hi Mouse
You feel free to call me out anytime I balls something up. It’s the only way I’ll learn.
Some women don’t prioritize physical appearance while seeking a partner. That’s why the complaint that only “alpha males” can find sex or love is ridiculous. But some women do have a specific physical type. And that’s okay.
It’s also okay for incels to only want sex with conventionally attractive women. It’s just not okay for them to be violently angry if they don’t get it.
Whether a woman’s standards are high or low, they’re made that women have any standards at all.
Ooo, M.! I have things in common with you and now I am tempted to ask you personal questions that have absolutely nothing to do with this thread XD
How completely fucking delusional does one have to be to believe men have no power in a system in which they hold nearly all positions of power and responsibility and the vast majority of the wealth?
And all because some dudes can’t get laid? Guess what. I’m having trouble getting laid these days. I’m extremely cautious about who I hit on because I have no self esteem, I don’t take rejection well and I need to minimize the likelihood I’ll be accepted by a) not approaching dudes often and b) when I do, being sure there’s a strong likelihood I’ll be accepted.
And when I do get rejected, which is the overwhelming majority of the time, I don’t fucking fantasise about killing people.
Viewaskew, you realize you’re coming onto an article about a young man who stabbed random women because he felt entitled to sex with conventionally-attractive women (just like Elliot Rodgers, a young man who killed a bunch of random people he felt entitled to sex with conventionally attractive women), and a bunch of men on the Internet cheering and wishing death counts were higher (because how dare these uppity women think they have the right to decide who they have sex), and telling us that we ought to feel sorry for the poor, poor menz who can’t get any?
That’s your takeaway from this article?