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The British teenager who tried to kill 3 women because no one will date him has fans. But that's not the scariest thing about him.

Ben Moynihan, adapted from the photo he sent police, and which led to his arrest
Ben Moynihan, adapted from the photo he sent police, and which led to his arrest

[CONTENT WARNING: Misogynistic violence, rape apologia]

His complaint was a familiar one:

I think every girl is a type of slut, they are fussy with men nowadays, they do not give boys like us a chance.

You can find nearly identical laments in the profiles of self-described “nice guys” on OkCupid, on Men’s Rights blogs, and on forums for self-described “Incels” comisserating about their “involuntary celibacy” and what they see as the shallowness of young women.

But these words actually come from a video filmed by Ben Moynihan, a British teenager who was convicted of attempted murder earlier this week after stabbing three women in an attempt to take a sort of revenge upon the “weaker” gender he felt had made his life miserable by denying him sex. Another young man trying to punish women with violence for the “crime” of not dating him.

“I am still a virgin,” he wrote in one note. “Everyone is losing it before me, that’s why you are my chosen target.” In another note, he declared that “all women needs to die and hopefully next time I can gauge [sic] their eyes out.”

Moynihan’s twisted logic is of course eerily similar to that of Elliot Rodger, who went on a shooting spree in Isla Vista last spring in an attempt to “punish” women for their lack of interest in dating him, which he declared to be “a crime that can never be forgiven.”

Thankfully, Moynihan, unlike Rodger, was captured by police before he actually succeeded in killing anyone.

Not so thankfully, both of these men have their fans, including some amongst the usual suspects I write about on this blog. On the incel hangout slutHATE – the successor to PUAhate, on which Elliot Rodger was an occasional commenter – both Rodger and Moynihan have become heroes of a sort to some of the more bitter commenters. Or at least the source of much amusement.

In response to news about Moynihan’s trial, one slutHATEr posted a thread asking “Okay, which one of you did this?” “A new supreme gentleman rises,” wrote another in a different thread devoted to the would-be killer.

A third commenter, going by the name Homesick Alien, asked the question “Are Females days numbered?” listing an assortment of incels who’d killed “females” in an act of twisted “revenge” for their lackluster or nonexistent dating lives. In the comments, Homesick Alien chillingly wrote that

I’m sure someone somehow is rightfully very rageful currently planning the next shooting spree . We can only hope it’ll be more elaborate. Female entitlement is off the charts now, they are out of control,. It’s about time they are put in their fucking place.

Another posted a link to Rodger’s 150-page manifesto, suggesting that “it has the potential to motivate incels to damage the females.”

In a thread from several months ago, a slutHATEr calling himselt NewGenious119 went after fellow incels for not supporting shooting sprees enthusiastically enough.

Seriously, is there something mentally wrong with you? Thinking that a school full of sluts and frat stars getting slain by an incel is a bad thing is characteristic of a normalfag mindset. Our ONLY hope for ever getting to fuck multiple hot sluts is if there are enough incels in the western world who snap and cause bloodshed. It’s the only way that sluts and alphas will realize and accept that there are serious consequences for allowing so many males to live their lives in misery.

Emphasis mine.

As it turned out, there was no need for him to worry that other incels didn’t support spree killngs aimed at “sluts,” as assorted commenters soon let him know.

The rogue MRA and American-Women-Boycotter who calls himself John Rambo seconded his sentiment, writing

I wouldn’t do one myself. But I wouldn’t prevent one from happening if I knew it would as long as I wouldn’t die or a girl that willing to fuck me would. …

Honestly, I truly have very little sympathy for the victims.

A commenter calling himself Worthless Trash only had one complaint: that the death tolls weren’t higher.

I just wish these guys would make better plans and kill their targets and more of them, but sadly most of them have a weakened will-power after all the years of rejections and maybe bullying.

Also i don’t care if it will solve the problem or not, i just feel better hearing this, it’s like divine justice, they feel so superior but in the end they die like worms, just like they treat other guys, like worms, so in the end we are all equal.

Still others offered their assent:

I personally rejoice whenever I hear news of a school shooting.

The higher the death count, the better

i like their kill count high, because it’s always satisfying seeing someone arrogant going from rich to poor, beautiful too ugly from popular to dead

While a few commenters spoke out against the idea of mass murder as a reasonable response to a lack of dates, they were in the distinct minority.

And then there was this guy:

i support ERism [Elliot Rodgerism], but I would never do it myself, my brother is a doctor and his career would be ruined if our family name ever got tarnished

It would be a little easier to dismiss all this as merely internet dumbassery, were it not for the fact that Rodger went out and killed 6 people after posting similar comments on the message board that later became slutHATE.

While commenters like these are a distinct minority even in the sordid world of the manosphere, the sad and scary fact is that there are a frightening number of young and not-so-young men who have embraced one of the central assumptions of the murder-spree-supporting incels of slutHATE – the notion that women who put “nice guys” in the “friend zone” are committing some kind of crime against them, and deserve to be punished for it, individually or collectively.

You can see variations on this in assorted memes attacking women – much as Moynihan and Rodgers did – for supposedly preferring “bad boys” and assholes over the “nice guys” of the world.

fuckbuddyzonememe

ce29786c71fc4367cb976e3209436c298c91044f7524f87c740c96fa6c4610a5

Other “friend zone” memes are a bit darker.

Insanity-Wolf-SHE-PUT-YOU-IN-THE-FRIEND-ZONE-PUT-HER-IN-THE-RAPE-ZONE

And darker still:

She-put-me-in-the-friend-zone_o_133310

674ab013960bfc9b5ff79074306a953b

And somehow even darker than that:

Friend_87330e_2546785

And we’re just begun to scratch the surface here.

In a followup post, I will look at the ways in which the rampant “slutbashing” of Men’s Rights Activists and other manosphere denizens helps to feed the toxic culture of aggrieved sexual entitlement that has contributed to violence against women.

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BritterSweet
9 years ago

Second, you mock me for comparing female entitlement to birth control to male sexual entitlement.

But, let me ask you this one, why is birth control a health care issue?

If sex is part of health care, why is sexual depravity not?

Providing a right to birth control without a right to sex is like providing a right to a helmet without a right to a motorcycle. It is ridiculous.

Take it from a nurse who has spent an entire semester in college specifically on pregnancy and birth and the many health risks that come with it: birth control is a health care issue.

Birth control can be used to treat certain medical conditions like ovarian cysts. As a personal example I had to take birth control at age 15 to stop my periods because I was severely anemic and needed to rebuild my blood supply, and then to re-regulate my periods because said anemia was caused by me bleeding heavily for over a month straight.

And, oh yeah, birth control’s primary purpose is to PREVENT UNWANTED PREGNANCIES. Pregnancies which could put the pregnant person’s health or even life at risk. Pregnancies that could ruin a person’s life because they are not ready to care for a child.

There is no medical condition that results from not having sex.

I don’t know why I wasted the time I did on this, because you obviously don’t care at all about anything other than your little ego and wants.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
9 years ago

Some brain bleach for those who need it:

Fabe
Fabe
9 years ago

@Fabe
Welcome to Mammoths – this Welcome package will explain block quotes as well as lots of other things.

And Fabe, blockquotes work like this: (blockquote) Thing you want to quote (/blockquote), but replace the parenthesis with the sharp carrot things (they are the same keys as , and . ). Like this: <

Thanks for the help kim and wordspinner

BritterSweet
9 years ago

Mass ninja’d! Thank you everyone.

fruitloopsie
fruitloopsie
9 years ago

POM
That was awesome brain bleach

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
9 years ago

Decided to go back a little, cause why not.

Okay. Now, let me clear a few things up: I do not think men have a “right” to sex. I do think the buzzword “male sexual entitlement” is used by feminists to vilify any guy who dare criticize the sexual choices that women in general make. Women have a right to make the choices they want as to who they have sex with. On the same note, men have the right to verbally vent and express anger about said choices. Just like unemployed people can express anger about the people who got job offers over them.

See, “criticize sexual choices that women in general make” might sound slightly reasonable. Ok, it really doesn’t. But it becomes worse when you look at the content of that criticism. “Women’s sexual choices are terrible because THEY AREN’T SLEEPING WITH ME WAAAAHHH!” That’s practically the definition of entitlement.

And hey, you know what? Some people who complain about job offers that other’s got instead of them do complain in an entitled way. Especially the ones who think that the other person got the job only because of their gender/race/whatever. “That job should have been MINE” is at the very least close to entitlement.

There are ways to vent frustration about not getting the sex you’d want to have that don’t involve a sense of entitlement. Self-described incels, sadly, come nowhere close to this.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
9 years ago

@fruitloopsie

You’re welcome. I love it. The music is fantastic, and it reminds me that most people are actually decent most of the time.

Mezza
Mezza
9 years ago

So, I don’t comment here much, I mostly lurk. But this was too ridiculous for me to ignore.

From Tom’s comment: “Providing a right to birth control without a right to sex is like providing a right to a helmet without a right to a motorcycle. It is ridiculous.”

….Uh, what? Okay, first off, that analogy doesn’t make sense. Apart from the fact that you don’t need a right to own a helmet, you can own a helmet without owning a motorcycle. You could argue the helmet is pointless without the motorcycle, but a) it could be kept for the future when it’s needed and b) birth control serves other medical functions aside from contraception (trust me when I say periods can be crippling for some women, which prevents them from going to work or functioning unless they’re put on hormonal BC that can make their periods less painful), which is just another example of why your analogy doesn’t work.

Second, no, women who take birth control are not being given a right to sex, nor are they automatically entitled to sex. They still get rejected. All it means is that they can have sex without having to worry about pregnancy, and it’s also cheaper for the healthcare system to spend money on BC than to spend money on a 9 month long unwanted pregnancy (because plenty of women will still have unprotected sex even if they know they’re risking an unwanted pregnancy).
Now, this does mean women can be more promiscuous, but guess what? None of us here see that as a bad thing. Taking BC doesn’t mean a woman is entitled to sex, but it does mean she can have sex with men without having to panic about pregnancy. You’re creating a false equivalence because BC has nothing to do with being entitled to sex.

“But, let me ask you this one, why is birth control a health care issue?”

Tom, do you know what pregnancy is? No, seriously, do you?

I can’t even right now. I’m just going to ignore this douchenozzle’s comments from now on.

To everyone else here: I’m sorry for popping my head in here to rant after I haven’t commented for a while. I hope no one finds it rude! (Also, it took me ages to type this comment and I haven’t refreshed, so I apologize if someone ninja’d me.)

Tom Saw
9 years ago

Okay. A lot to respond here. Hopefully this will answer a lot of questions.

In my opinion, sex is a need (so is intimacy). At the very least, sex is more than a luxury. I’m sorry. But, if you think education is a need, I don’t see how you can say sex or intimacy is a luxury. There are significant portion of males who are involuntarily celibate. There is not, by the way, an equivalently large portion of females who are involuntarily celibate (the word involuntarily is important here). Let us not forget Bateman’s principle which says that male reproductive success has a less even distribution than female reproductive success (a prediction that succeeds). Historically, only 40% of males have reproduced compared to 80% of females:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/women-who-stray/201202/why-men-gave-polygamy

Sure, you can live a fulfilled life without sex. On the same note, you can live a fulfilled life without education or mental health care. But, for a man who desperately wants sex because his biological and emotional needs, it is very difficult. If you are a man who constantly hears women talk about how they want a decent, communicative man but then go for the quarterback that bullies you over you, it is frustrating and even angering. It is important to remember that the core biological urge of humans is to reproduce.

None of this justifies violence. But, having a compassionate approach would go a long way towards preventing violence. Telling these guys they are “entitled” certainly isn’t going to keep them from being violent. Having cultural messages that constantly tell them that any anger they have towards their lack of intimacy is just evil male sexual entitlement will just make them angrier, and it isn’t fair to the many who are not violent.

There may not be a solution here. Obviously, you can’t force girls to sleep with certain guys. I don’t support anything of that nature. I do think legalizing and destigmatizing prostitution is a good idea (but not state funding!!!).

Nobody is entitled to another person’s body or labor. As a libertarian, I believe feminists only apply that selectively. For example, they rightfully decry attempts to violate female bodily autonomy. But, then they turn around and claim that they have the rights to the fruits of others labor in terms of birth control, education, etc.

I don’t understand why everybody here is so hostile to the idea that showing some of these men a little compassion may not be such a bad idea. It seems, quite bluntly, that feminists are intent on bullying the same guys who have been bullied their entire lives.

We are able to understand how the bullying culture contributed to the Columbine tragedy. Why can’t we talk about the way our society talks to and treats involuntarily celibate men contributed to Elliot Rodger?

And no, it’s not male sexual entitlement. It’s female and male mocking of men who lack sexual experience. It’s female and male (and feminist) mocking of any guy who complain about the guys females pick to have sex with over him.

A support system is possible. But, feminists need to recognize the ways in which they have been counterproductive in creating one. I’d love a society where men didn’t define themselves by the amount of women they’d slept with. But, contrary to what they say, feminists have demonized every attempt to do so. Feminist indoctrination isn’t a solution. Self loathing isn’t a solution. Male spaces where men can honestly talk about their experiences with women and powerlessness without being made fun of or called entitled really could go a long way here.

nightshademary
9 years ago

That last one was just fucking horrifying.

wordsp1nner
wordsp1nner
9 years ago

If you are a man who constantly hears women talk about how they want a decent, communicative man but then go for the quarterback that bullies you over you, it is frustrating and even angering. It is important to remember that the core biological urge of humans is to reproduce.

Newsflash: you are not a decent, communicative man. You are a creepy man who whines that women won’t sleep with you and believes your “right” to get your dick wet in a hot chick (and lets be honest, you don’t even notice other women) is more important than the right to an education, bodily control, and equal access to healthcare.

Believe me, women aren’t sleeping with you because they go for thugs; they aren’t sleeping with you because they don’t go for creeps with nothing to offer.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
9 years ago

In my opinion, sex is a need (so is intimacy).

I’m glad you recognize that this is just an opinion. I wish you had prefaced every one of your other statements with that disclaimer, because 100% of them need it.

But, if you think education is a need, I don’t see how you can say sex or intimacy is a luxury.

Education is necessary for a modern industrial society to function. All employers in a modern industrial society require their employees to know how to read, write and do basic mathematics. However, they aren’t willing to pay to train completely illiterate people on these skills, which is why we have a publicly-funded educational system. The public funds basic education, and subsidizes higher education, and benefits from the increased productivity of educated workers.

Zero percent of the preceding paragraph applies to sex in any fashion.

There are significant portion of males who are involuntarily celibate. There is not, by the way, an equivalently large portion of females who are involuntarily celibate (the word involuntarily is important here).

[citation needed]

Let us not forget Bateman’s principle which says that male reproductive success has a less even distribution than female reproductive success (a prediction that succeeds). Historically, only 40% of males have reproduced compared to 80% of females:

Completely irrelevant to your point that men are totes deserving of safe places to express their desire to murder women, but women don’t deserve to complain about that.

But, for a man who desperately wants sex because his biological and emotional needs, it is very difficult.

Masturbation is sex. Use that knowledge. You are able to give yourself as many orgasms as you want and nobody is stopping you.

If you are a man who constantly hears women talk about how they want a decent, communicative man but then go for the quarterback that bullies you over you, it is frustrating and even angering.

[citation needed] I keep hearing this story about how women go for bad boys and leave the nice guys in the dust, but I always hear this from “nice guys” who get angry and sometimes violent about it. Guys who are literally nice in the literal sense don’t get angry and sometimes violent when they don’t have a girlfriend. The reason you don’t have a girlfriend is that you are not actually nice.

None of this justifies violence. But, having a compassionate approach would go a long way towards preventing violence.

Yes, coddling violent men and telling them that their violent attitude is totally justified and understandable, and you poor dear let me just make you a cup of tea, has worked to prevent violence down throughout history. That doesn’t at all teach young boys that the way to get what they want is to be violent, and that violence is acceptable and will be tolerated. Yep, those women who were stabbed are definitely at fault for not sufficiently coddling a violent man.

As a libertarian

I’m just going to stop right here, because swatting flies with a Buick is not my style.

Kim
Kim
9 years ago

I don’t understand why everybody here is so hostile to the idea that showing some of these men a little compassion may not be such a bad idea.

I’ve had my share of sex with nerdy inexperienced guys because I personally find shy and nerdy attractive. What I don’t find attractive is misogynistic ragewankers, which is what “these men” are. No, I’m not going to give them compassion OR sex.

Buttercup Q. Skullpants
Buttercup Q. Skullpants
9 years ago

I’ll be awaiting your ill informed response. I’ll also be awaiting the other feminists on here to affirm your ill informed response so you can all declare yourself correct by “social proof” and then complete the feminist circle jerk.

Poisoning the well. Now there’s a sign of an open minded, expert debater.

On the same note, men have the right to verbally vent and express anger about said choices. Just like unemployed people can express anger about the people who got job offers over them.

The word you want is “disappointment”, not “anger”. Of course you’re allowed to be disappointed that you didn’t get the job, question why it happened, wonder what you can do better next time. That’s natural. But if it went to someone more qualified, experienced, and skilled? Blaming it on some kind of conspiracy is just shooting yourself in the foot. It’s not productive, it’s wrong-headed, and makes you less likely to get hired, because interviewers can smell entitlement a million miles away. I interview people all the time, and the candidates who come in with a “here’s what I can do for you!” attitude get hired over the candidates who start right off the bat asking about benefits and salary and “what can you do for me?”

Contrary to what feminists say, the best way to prevent another Elliot Rodger style attack is to let these men have space to talk about their experience with women. Women have all kinds of spaces to talk about their experiences with men. All you feminists need to do is let them talk about their experience without calling them an entitled neckbeard.

Relax, feminists! We just want to have our cozy little space where we talk about killing you if you don’t give us sex! Why are you against that?

One more thing. When I talked about the health care/education thing, I wasn’t saying that sex is the same as health care and education. What I was saying was that both education and health care require people providing services to other people. If nobody was willing to provide said services, we would have to force somebody to be a doctor or teacher in order to “fulfill” a right.

SEX ISN’T A SERVICE. And no, we wouldn’t have to force people to become doctors and teachers if no one was willing to. Either someone would step up and volunteer (because healthcare and education benefit the community, unlike sex, which benefits individuals), or we’d all take care of our needs ourselves.

When you get right down to it, masturbation is basically the equivalent of home-schooling.

The whole government-sanctioned slavery/prostitution/hot state women idea is ridiculous, unworkable, and morally monstrous. You actually expect hot women to volunteer (or worse, be conscripted?) Why should they? What’s in it for them? Who’s going to pay for it? Why should this be given priority over federal funding for education, infrastructure, and social services (which are already badly hurting)? You expect taxpayers to subsidize this? I’m not paying an extra however-many-hundred-a-year just so some bitter misogynist somewhere can ejaculate into an underwear model. What public good does that serve, other than making it less likely that women will be murdered in a mass killing spree? Doesn’t that make this an elaborate extortion/human sacrifice scheme?

I’m going to stop now because my question mark key is smoking.

marinerachel
marinerachel
9 years ago

Talking about killing women because you’re so unpleasant literally not a single one will lay you is “venting”?

Sure, you’re allowed to do that (though no one with half a neuron believes it’s venting – venting is expressing frustration, not hate and vengefulness) just as women are allowed to say “Who the fuck would say that sort of thing? Jeepers, that is frightening.”

No one thinks you’re evil, Tommy. Don’t flatter yourself. Most of us think you’re full of shit and not too bright. That’s about it.

Paradoxical Intention
9 years ago

Whelp, I certainly missed a show. This Tom guy’s a real jerk-off, innit he? Long post inbound!

Oh, and we all know you had no fucking desire to listen to anything we had to say. You just came in here looking for proof that we’re all “evil FEEEEEEMALES” because we don’t think you have a right to get laid simply because you exist and women are getting birth control because it’s good for other things besides fucking you.

Feminists don’t have a responsibility to offer solutions for these men, but they do have a responsibility to not demonize any alternative for these men.

So, don’t “demonize” murder, assaulting and raping women for saying no? Gotcha. Fuck off.

Contrary to what feminists say, the best way to prevent another Elliot Rodger style attack is to let these men have space to talk about their experience with women. Women have all kinds of spaces to talk about their experiences with men. All you feminists need to do is let them talk about their experience without calling them an entitled neckbeard.

Really? Where do women have a space to talk about how they want to rape and murder men? Oh? They don’t exist because rape and murder is wrong? Well, I’ll be. [/sarcasm]

The way that these men talk about women is not how women talk about men. These men talk about women like they are something to be gained, a tool for them to use for their own purposes. THAT’S when we call them entitled. Because they feel, much like you, that men are entitled to getting laid because it’s some sort of be-all, end-all to you. PROTIP: It’s not.

Men HAVE spaces to talk about women like they’re terrible people for not sleeping with them. Guess where Elliot Rodgers liked to frequent? Forums where entitled men whined that women wouldn’t sleep with them and how that made them evil sluts.

These spaces are the REASON that Elliot Rodgers did what he did. It was a reassuring echo chamber for his rage and eventual violence. Did you not read the post, or are you just going to come in here and mansplain that men need a place to talk about how they want to kill, torture, and rape women for not giving them what they want?

From above:

“I am still a virgin,” he wrote in one note. “Everyone is losing it before me, that’s why you are my chosen target.” In another note, he declared that “all women needs to die and hopefully next time I can gauge [sic] their eyes out.”

Yeah, because it’s totally okay and healthy to say you want all women to die and “gauge their eyes out”, right?

What I was saying was that both education and health care require people providing services to other people. If nobody was willing to provide said services, we would have to force somebody to be a doctor or teacher in order to “fulfill” a right.

But we always have people willing to be doctors and teachers. We hold those positions in really high regard (even if we don’t treat teachers that nicely). We always have people who are willing to help others. Our point was that they were CONSENTING to help others. They want to do this. So, your point is moot.

Nice rape apologia/entitlement. “People (women) aren’t willing to have sex with me, and that’s my right as a man! So, let’s make them!” Fuck OFF.

But, the more important point was ignored. I was, and continue to be, highly critical of feminists thinking female sexual entitlement in the form of women being entitled to free birth control is ok while male sexual entitlement is always evil. I agree sexual entitlement is wrong. But, I condemn it when females think they are entitled to birth control to.

Because birth control isn’t used for things like helping regulate hormones or periods, right? [/sarcasm]

We’re “entitled” to birth control because it’s not JUST FOR BIRTH CONTROL. For fuck’s sake. It’s not the same thing as “We have a right to have hot men fuck us whenever we want, or else they deserve to die!” like these men are saying. Fuck OFFFFFFF.

Ugh. On to your second post:

http://data.whicdn.com/images/22828068/marilyn-monroe-Favim.com-292739_large.gif

The fact is that, yes, everyone here pretty much did miss my point. Now, I know you guy like the feminist “circle jerk” model. This is so you can all be wrong but tell each other you’re not wrong so you don’t feel bad about being wrong.

I’ll be awaiting your ill informed response. I’ll also be awaiting the other feminists on here to affirm your ill informed response so you can all declare yourself correct by “social proof” and then complete the feminist circle jerk.

See, this is how I know you don’t think we have anything of value to say. You came in here assuming we’re fucking wrong instead of asking yourself: “Why do they say what they say?”

Here’s why: Because a good chunk of us are women, and this shit is our lives. We don’t need a man (and a right fucking bastard at that) coming in here with the assumption that we’re all silly lil’ wimmenz who can’t understand our own feelings or experiences on the subject. Fuck off back to your primordial goo with your arrogant, gas-lighting mansplaining you fucking amoeba.

Indeed, people DO have a right to verbally disapprove of the choices others make. That is a part of free speech. Freedom to do as one pleases is not freedom from judgement.

True. But there’s something to be said about keeping it to your fucking self. I don’t give a shit if you don’t like what I do or who I fuck. It’s none of your concern unless I decide to involve you. However, don’t hold your breath on that one.

But, let me ask you this one, why is birth control a health care issue?

Because it’s not just for birth control. I took birth control a long time ago even though I wasn’t sexually active for regulating my hormones so I wouldn’t bleed to death from my period.

If sex is part of health care, why is sexual depravity not?

Because you can’t die or get diseases from not having sex. Blue balls aren’t a thing.

If you think it is, get yourself a pocket pussy and some lube and leave us women alone.

Providing a right to birth control without a right to sex is like providing a right to a helmet without a right to a motorcycle. It is ridiculous.

You don’t have a “right” to a helmet. It’s the law that you HAVE to wear one. By your analogy, all women HAVE to take birth control.

Providing a right to birth control is more about women’s physical health than it is about simply not getting pregnant.

However, pregnancy is also a fucking health concern. Not just for the pregnant person but for the zygote/fetus/baby (depending on the stage of the pregnancy) inside of the pregnant person. There’s so many things that can go wrong if it’s not being very well-monitored.

There’s literally a whole section of medicine devoted to it (prenatal medicine), with specialists and everything!

No one has a “right” to sex, because sex involves more than one person. You don’t have a “right” over my body or any other woman’s. Sit the fuck down.
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Bina
Bina
9 years ago

Holy moly, we’ve got dumb-oly:

One more thing. When I talked about the health care/education thing, I wasn’t saying that sex is the same as health care and education. What I was saying was that both education and health care require people providing services to other people. If nobody was willing to provide said services, we would have to force somebody to be a doctor or teacher in order to “fulfill” a right.

But, the more important point was ignored. I was, and continue to be, highly critical of feminists thinking female sexual entitlement in the form of women being entitled to free birth control is ok while male sexual entitlement is always evil. I agree sexual entitlement is wrong. But, I condemn it when females think they are entitled to birth control to.

“We would have to force somebody to be a doctor or a teacher”?

Oh, so you’re in favor of forcing people to do things they’re not qualified for, trained to do, or interested in, just because you have “a right”? Go fuck yourself.

“I condemn it when females think they are entitled to birth control”?

Oh, so you think women should be forced to get pregnant whether they want to, even if they don’t want kids, already have enough of them (or too many), or have health problems that are aggravated by pregnancy…or just lack of access to the Pill? For the record, I went on the Pill at 19, with no sexual prospects in sight (and indeed, not actually having sex for quite a few years yet), but because I had heavy, irregular and painful periods that were leaving me wobbly with pain and anemic and a nervous wreck, that medication saved my ass. And you think I had no right to it? You don’t know women, and you don’t deserve a single one, ever. GO FUCK YOURSELF.

Mezza
Mezza
9 years ago

“*Insert link to Psychology Today*”

“As a libertarian…”

“Feminist indoctrination isn’t the solution” (Because the best way to paint yourself as a totally fair commenter who simply cares about men is to claim that feminists are ‘indoctrinating’ people.)

“Education and mental health services are just as important as getting laid”

Hah, yeah, no. Tom, we know exactly what you’re saying, we just think your ideas are shitty.

For the record, none of us are against men discussing their frustration over rejection. None of us are shaming men who don’t have sex often. Men are also victims of the patriarchy, which encourages outdated ideas about dating and leaves them frustrated. No one is denying that.
We’re against reinforcing men’s aggression towards women who reject them, which is exactly what sites like sluthate do. We’re against sites that tell men they’re JUSTIFIED in feeling angry or violent towards women who reject them.

There’s nothing wrong with feeling sad about being rejected, but that’s something both genders go through. Men who feel the urge to actually hurt women who reject them need to realize that the feeling stems from entitlement. It’s from the idea that it’s justified to feel angry when someone rejects you, as if they’ve committed some wrong against you.
If men want to discuss those feelings, they can, but I’m not going to tell them that it was okay for them to think about hurting Sally when she turned them down. Regardless of gender, it’s NOT okay to feel that way just because someone turned you down. He can talk about how he felt that way, but he shouldn’t go on feeling that way. If he can recognize why it’s problematic to feel that way, he can start to develop a healthier attitude towards relationships.

Yes, men should be able to discuss their feelings about rejection, even if those feelings boil down to “she didn’t sleep with me and I got angry”. No, that does not mean they should get to carry on feeling angry at women who say ‘no.’ Yes, men SHOULD feel guilty that they had the urge to harm women who rejected them, and they should work to change their outlook on relationships. No, men shouldn’t feel guilty that they can’t get laid frequently or easily, and feminism doesn’t say they should.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
9 years ago

“That b***h didn’t sleep with me yesterday, after I was so nice to her! Women are sleeping with Alphas and not with us. If they aren’t careful, they’ll push us over the line, and I’ll be laughing as they all get shot down! They’ll wish they had just accepted me!”

“Dude, you’re rage-fantasizing about mass murder because nobody’s sleeping with you. That’s really fucked up.”

“STOP BULLYING ME! I JUST WANT TO VENT AND BE LEFT ALONE! So anyway, thankfully some men are getting the right idea and going out to murder people. If only they could murder more.”

*agressively points to hypothetical conversation*

Tom, tell me one thing. How is your tl;dr not just a long-winded justification for the above attitude? You admit that you can’t force anyone to have sex, but you ask for compassion. How, exactly, are we supposed to give compassion to someone who fantasizes about (and rarely actually commits) murder for something as trivial as not being fucked when they want? How are we supposed to be compassionate to someone who is so self-absorbed that they think being criticized for their violent fantasies is really the utmost persecution?

How are we to be expected to show kindness to a person who makes up a term like “involuntary celebacy,” as if sex should only be the decision of one person, and pontificates gravely about how hard their life is without ever considering that maybe, just maybe, women might be more willing to sleep with them if they viewed women as people and not as sex machines that dispense when enough kindness coins are inserted?

And to someone who fucking argues that murderers are the responsibility of the women who don’t bone them?

Cyberwulf
Cyberwulf
9 years ago

“[Women can’t be incel]”

yeah because men will fuck any woman and don’t ever compare them to the societal ideal of womanhood

“go for the quarterback who bullies you”

I could go into how just because he’s a jerk to you doesn’t mean he’s bad to her, sometimes the groin wants what it wants, and if you were banging a hot cheerleader I doubt you’d dump her just because she picked on the less attractive girl you’ve known since third grade. Instead I’m going to tell you to grow the fuck up. If you’re older than 25 you should have jettisoned this trivial adolescent bbaggage by now.

“As a libertarian” I hope you aren’t driving on any government-built roads.

ParadoxicalIntention
9 years ago

Ugh. Ugh. Ugh. Ugh.

That’s really all I have to say at this point about Tommy Boy.

What a gross individual.

Mezza
Mezza
9 years ago

Holy hell, I typed “feel that way” too many times in that rant. I really need to stop being repetitive when I’m rambling…

weirwoodtreehugger
9 years ago

He’s a libertarian. What a surprise. I should have known. They’re so fond of ponderous teal deers that contain no actual information or logic.

You know what’s not sexy? Libertarians. Seriously, the fact that so many bitter manospherians are libertarians is evidence that women don’t like mean selfish assholes. Nothing turns me, and many other women off more than a pretentious guy with political beliefs centered around being a selfish and mean asshole. Anyone who thinks that poor people should be left to starve and businesses shouldn’t be stopped from polluting or discriminating is not getting anywhere near my bits.

Tom Saw
9 years ago

First off. I am not talking about myself. Honestly, I’m sort of a jerk. And, I’ve never had a platonic relationship with a female or been “friend zoned”. So, to everyone who thinks this is personal, you are wrong. I have, however, seen both of my two closest friends go through experience after experience being “nice guys”.

Second. I’m not questioning the practicality of universal education. But, I’m questioning the view that education is a right. A person can support universal education for practical reasons without seeing education as a right.

Third. Let’s take a look at Maslow’s hierarchy of needs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs#Physiological_needs

Did Maslow see sex as a luxury? Did he see it as less of a need than education?

Again. I don’t think people have a right to have their needs fulfilled. But, an unfulfilled need is still a need. Sex is a need. That doesn’t imply a right to have that need fulfilled.

Fourth. Of course women have a right to talk about violent men and jerks. I never said or implied otherwise. The people who are saying I did are either ignorant or dishonest.

Fifth. What exactly are feminists proposing to stop these men from being violent? Do you really think that calling them entitled or having culture teach them that their anger is just entitlement is going to prevent violence?

Also, what about the fact that this anger ISNT entitlement in any meaningful sense. For the vast majority of non violent men who are involuntarily celibate, some frustration is justifiable and NOT entitled.

eli
eli
9 years ago

nah, but no folks, you’re misunderstanding him! Sex and INTIMACY means “look ma, no hands!” It’s a NEED. Tom and his biotrooths sez so. Won’t somebody PLEASE think of the poor incels.

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