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The British teenager who tried to kill 3 women because no one will date him has fans. But that's not the scariest thing about him.

Ben Moynihan, adapted from the photo he sent police, and which led to his arrest
Ben Moynihan, adapted from the photo he sent police, and which led to his arrest

[CONTENT WARNING: Misogynistic violence, rape apologia]

His complaint was a familiar one:

I think every girl is a type of slut, they are fussy with men nowadays, they do not give boys like us a chance.

You can find nearly identical laments in the profiles of self-described “nice guys” on OkCupid, on Men’s Rights blogs, and on forums for self-described “Incels” comisserating about their “involuntary celibacy” and what they see as the shallowness of young women.

But these words actually come from a video filmed by Ben Moynihan, a British teenager who was convicted of attempted murder earlier this week after stabbing three women in an attempt to take a sort of revenge upon the “weaker” gender he felt had made his life miserable by denying him sex. Another young man trying to punish women with violence for the “crime” of not dating him.

“I am still a virgin,” he wrote in one note. “Everyone is losing it before me, that’s why you are my chosen target.” In another note, he declared that “all women needs to die and hopefully next time I can gauge [sic] their eyes out.”

Moynihan’s twisted logic is of course eerily similar to that of Elliot Rodger, who went on a shooting spree in Isla Vista last spring in an attempt to “punish” women for their lack of interest in dating him, which he declared to be “a crime that can never be forgiven.”

Thankfully, Moynihan, unlike Rodger, was captured by police before he actually succeeded in killing anyone.

Not so thankfully, both of these men have their fans, including some amongst the usual suspects I write about on this blog. On the incel hangout slutHATE – the successor to PUAhate, on which Elliot Rodger was an occasional commenter – both Rodger and Moynihan have become heroes of a sort to some of the more bitter commenters. Or at least the source of much amusement.

In response to news about Moynihan’s trial, one slutHATEr posted a thread asking “Okay, which one of you did this?” “A new supreme gentleman rises,” wrote another in a different thread devoted to the would-be killer.

A third commenter, going by the name Homesick Alien, asked the question “Are Females days numbered?” listing an assortment of incels who’d killed “females” in an act of twisted “revenge” for their lackluster or nonexistent dating lives. In the comments, Homesick Alien chillingly wrote that

I’m sure someone somehow is rightfully very rageful currently planning the next shooting spree . We can only hope it’ll be more elaborate. Female entitlement is off the charts now, they are out of control,. It’s about time they are put in their fucking place.

Another posted a link to Rodger’s 150-page manifesto, suggesting that “it has the potential to motivate incels to damage the females.”

In a thread from several months ago, a slutHATEr calling himselt NewGenious119 went after fellow incels for not supporting shooting sprees enthusiastically enough.

Seriously, is there something mentally wrong with you? Thinking that a school full of sluts and frat stars getting slain by an incel is a bad thing is characteristic of a normalfag mindset. Our ONLY hope for ever getting to fuck multiple hot sluts is if there are enough incels in the western world who snap and cause bloodshed. It’s the only way that sluts and alphas will realize and accept that there are serious consequences for allowing so many males to live their lives in misery.

Emphasis mine.

As it turned out, there was no need for him to worry that other incels didn’t support spree killngs aimed at “sluts,” as assorted commenters soon let him know.

The rogue MRA and American-Women-Boycotter who calls himself John Rambo seconded his sentiment, writing

I wouldn’t do one myself. But I wouldn’t prevent one from happening if I knew it would as long as I wouldn’t die or a girl that willing to fuck me would. …

Honestly, I truly have very little sympathy for the victims.

A commenter calling himself Worthless Trash only had one complaint: that the death tolls weren’t higher.

I just wish these guys would make better plans and kill their targets and more of them, but sadly most of them have a weakened will-power after all the years of rejections and maybe bullying.

Also i don’t care if it will solve the problem or not, i just feel better hearing this, it’s like divine justice, they feel so superior but in the end they die like worms, just like they treat other guys, like worms, so in the end we are all equal.

Still others offered their assent:

I personally rejoice whenever I hear news of a school shooting.

The higher the death count, the better

i like their kill count high, because it’s always satisfying seeing someone arrogant going from rich to poor, beautiful too ugly from popular to dead

While a few commenters spoke out against the idea of mass murder as a reasonable response to a lack of dates, they were in the distinct minority.

And then there was this guy:

i support ERism [Elliot Rodgerism], but I would never do it myself, my brother is a doctor and his career would be ruined if our family name ever got tarnished

It would be a little easier to dismiss all this as merely internet dumbassery, were it not for the fact that Rodger went out and killed 6 people after posting similar comments on the message board that later became slutHATE.

While commenters like these are a distinct minority even in the sordid world of the manosphere, the sad and scary fact is that there are a frightening number of young and not-so-young men who have embraced one of the central assumptions of the murder-spree-supporting incels of slutHATE – the notion that women who put “nice guys” in the “friend zone” are committing some kind of crime against them, and deserve to be punished for it, individually or collectively.

You can see variations on this in assorted memes attacking women – much as Moynihan and Rodgers did – for supposedly preferring “bad boys” and assholes over the “nice guys” of the world.

fuckbuddyzonememe

ce29786c71fc4367cb976e3209436c298c91044f7524f87c740c96fa6c4610a5

Other “friend zone” memes are a bit darker.

Insanity-Wolf-SHE-PUT-YOU-IN-THE-FRIEND-ZONE-PUT-HER-IN-THE-RAPE-ZONE

And darker still:

She-put-me-in-the-friend-zone_o_133310

674ab013960bfc9b5ff79074306a953b

And somehow even darker than that:

Friend_87330e_2546785

And we’re just begun to scratch the surface here.

In a followup post, I will look at the ways in which the rampant “slutbashing” of Men’s Rights Activists and other manosphere denizens helps to feed the toxic culture of aggrieved sexual entitlement that has contributed to violence against women.

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brooked
brooked
5 years ago

FYI, that’s the anti-authoritarian hero Matthew of lore, so feel free to ask him about how to live dentistry free and ace job interviews.

They dress like prostitutes, and men expect sex from prostitutes (but real prostitutes actually put out on request). Women are creating this problem and dooming themselves.
I’m guessing these slatterns even get pap smears from “doctors”.

Only those of us who are more spiritual can see through the illusion.

Never change buddy, you’re a real life Rowdy Roddy Piper in They Live.

brooked
brooked
5 years ago

FYI, that’s the anti-authoritarian hero Matthew of lore, so feel free to ask him about how to live dentistry free and ace job interviews.

They dress like prostitutes, and men expect sex from prostitutes (but real prostitutes actually put out on request). Women are creating this problem and dooming themselves.

I’m guessing these slatterns even get pap smears from “doctors”.

Only those of us who are more spiritual can see through the illusion.

Never change buddy, you’re a real life Rowdy Roddy Piper in They Live.

dhag85
5 years ago

@Matthew

How the hell do you get from ‘watching sex on video’ to ‘can’t control myself, gotta stab someone’?

I’ve also heard some people manage to watch porn without thinking it’s a documentary.

mrex
5 years ago

But it’s very, very noteworthy that the way Bill Murray’s character finally ‘wins’ is not by making himself the perfect “nice guy”–giving gifts, pretending to enjoy all her favorite things, etc–but instead, by reforming himself. By the end of the movie, he’s playing music and helping people and encouraging young love, not to impress the romantic interest, but just because it makes him feel good about himself,-freemage

This so hard.

That movie is such a great analogy for letting your misery catch you in an endless loop of suck. And he broke out when he stopped expecting a better day, or a better job, or sex /relationships to make him happy, and instead focused on doing the things that made him happy and letting the rest fall into place if it was meant to be. 🙂

We can be our own worst enemies when we try to control the uncontrollable (ie. our situation, other’s feelings) and make ourselves miserable in the process.

@falconer

Ohhh, cute. My youngest just turned two a couple months back. Its a fun age as they understand enough to get into devious toddler antics, but not enough to really understand what’s going on. 😉

“Reasoning with a two-year-old is about as productive as changing seats on the Titanic.”- Robert Scotellaro

RE: Dressing like a prostitute

I’m a little confused by the whole “dressing like a prostitute” thing. Do prostitutes have work uniforms or something? Do they wear name tags?

mrex
5 years ago

These guys probably could use a few dozen reading of the serenity prayer each day-

“God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

Wetherby
5 years ago

Oh dear, a whole heap of steaming manure to wade through here. [holds nose]

I think it’s the rampant Internet porn that’s causing all this hatred. Porn makes men think that women are only good for sex and that everyone in the world but them is having sex (in graphic detail). Porn basically teaches rape, hatred, and indifference to the value of human life, which ultimately promotes murder.

And I think it’s EC Comics in the 1950s that caused all the problems over the last half-century. Or possibly so-called “video nasties” in the early 1980s. Plus a generous dollop of Victorian penny dreadfuls over a century ago. Oh, and Titus Andronicus and Jacobean revenge plays at the turn of the 1600s.

In other words, citation needed. I’m all ears.

Also, frankly, the way girls dress nowadays doesn’t help. They dress like prostitutes, and men expect sex from prostitutes (but real prostitutes actually put out on request). Women are creating this problem and dooming themselves. Only those of us who are more spiritual can see through the illusion.

So your argument has segued from “porn is to blame for rape!” to “women are to blame for their own rapes!”? Call me eccentric, but my own view is that rapists tend to be 100% responsible for rape, and that they’re the only people worthy of finger-pointing – so why are you minimising their rather considerable contribution? ,

But let’s not confuse sadistic slut bashing with legitimate criticism of slutty behavior. Slutty behavior is not healthy. Think of a drunk homeless person. You can either make fun of him and leave him lying in the gutter, or you can give him a home. Slutty girls need love.

Love from someone who patronisingly dismisses them as “slutty” and who thinks they’re to blame for their own sexual assault? I can think of more attractive alternatives.

And “being more spiritual” isn’t the answer. “Being a decent human being who respects the boundaries of other human beings” is. Why do people like you find this idiotically simple concept so difficult to grasp?

freemage
5 years ago

Man, the Troll Collective is really turning out for this one, aren’t they? It’s almost like they’re tag-teaming, too–one gets banned or just profoundly refuted, and a new one steps up to take his place. I mean, I suppose on one level, it’s flattering that they all find us so fascinating that they just cannot stay away.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
5 years ago

I like how spirituality is being defined as “I’m going to judge the hell out of your slutty skirt and blame you for the lustful feelings of men.” I looked in the Gospels and tried to find an instance of Jesus saying that, but all Jesus had to say was about how prostitutes and tax collectors are going to inherit the kingdom of God way before the self-righteous assholes judging them.

I’m not super-familiar with other religions, so maybe someone else can chime in on what, for instance, the Buddha’s opinion of slutty skirts might have been.

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

Slutty girls need love.

Yes. Yes, they do. And you can start actually showing them some by not calling them “sluts”. What the hell kind of “spiritual” talk is that, anyway?

And, FYI, I wore miniskirts as a girl and still do as a woman in her 40s. Strangely, I don’t often get mistaken for someone whose job it is to “put out”, as you so spiritually put it. Maybe that’s because I don’t actually solicit anyone, and react with open disgust and a one-fingered salute if anyone tries to solicit me. Or maybe it’s because I don’t “need love” so much that I confuse it with sex all the time. Sometimes, a miniskirt is something you just wear because it’s hotter than a baboon’s ass out. Ever consider that?

Amused
5 years ago

I REALLY want this man to be diagnosed with some sort of mental illness because if he is not considered to be subject to some kind of disorder or illness this behaviour will be seen as falling into the realm of normal by the kind of males who follow the various sites mentioned in these comments.

I strongly disagree.

First of all, defining what’s “normal” strictly in medical terms is highly problematic in and of itself. It is what some sociologists have referred to as “medicalization”; I think we need to remember that there are certain areas of human experience that aren’t in the province of medicine. You say you want acts of mass violence to be considered dispositive symptoms of mental illness – but think of where this would take us. Surely you don’t want to condone garden-variety murder by terming it “normal”, right? Therefore, anyone who commits murder is mentally ill. So is every rapist, child abuser and anyone who commits assault. Let’s take them out of prison and put them in supportive group therapy instead. ALL of them, no exceptions, for the sake of proper labeling. But why stop there? You wouldn’t want to endorse non-violent crimes such as fraud or theft by calling those who perpetrate them “normal” either, right? Therefore … any criminal act is a sign of mental illness now? Note, we are not talking about metaphors here, the logical end to what you are proposing is that any criminal act is literally a symptom of mental illness.

Second, labeling perpetrators of violence insane on this kind of circular logic allows society to ignore the root causes of their violent beliefs. So, you have someone who killed or tried to kill a whole bunch of people. The most comfortable way to deal with this is to dismiss the perpetrator as crazy – and now we can go on living on autopilot. After all, if we were to contemplate for a moment that this person’s beliefs are the product of a culture that fosters entitlement and hatred, as opposed to faulty wiring in his brain, we would actually have to try to fix something really complicated. How much more work that would be than simply pumping someone full of Thorazine and locking him up in a secure ward!

Third, you really don’t want to run the risk of psychiatry becoming a coercive tool of the State. Sure, in this particular instance, we are talking about views that are clearly objectionable and indefensible by any standard. But if you pathologize opinions simply on the ground that you don’t like them – even if you have completely legitimate reasons for not liking a particular set of opinions – you create an extremely dangerous precedent. How long do you think it would take for conservative prosecutors to start involuntarily committing people for having “communist” views? Trust me, you are not endorsing violent crime by treating its perpetrators as violent criminals; but using medicine to discredit political views have been known to produce disastrous consequences in societies that went that route.

akemp0013
5 years ago
Reply to  samantha

I have gone to the police. He sent me a rather scary series of texts talking about being alone with me forever in the woods. Even so, the cops said they couldn’t do anything. I’ve moved about 1500 miles across the country with my soon-to-be husband. In the past year, this man’s letters have become less frequent. I got one last week, but I refuse to respond to any of them. Hopefully, by the time I move again this summer, he’ll have lost my trail for good. It is scary to think how many women live with this.

Falconer
5 years ago

@freemage:

Couple comments on an excellent list of how to We Hunted The Mammoth comment:

Thank you kindly!

@Matthew:

Porn basically teaches rape, hatred, and indifference to the value of human life, which ultimately promotes murder.

Well, one, not all Porn is created equal. Did you know that there is some porn out there that is made by … women !?

http://img.pandawhale.com/40145-Dramatic-Woodchuck-I-lied-gif-HaEO.gif

And there’s stuff out there that’s made by men and is not rapey and hateful.

But here I am trying to argue with you when you’ve clearly made up your mind already. Go be superior to we who have sex drives and wellness care somewhere else, kay?

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

And then there’s this, the latest from Jessica Valenti:

A study published this month in the journal Sex Roles reveals that some of the sexism women face – from catcalling and sexual harassment to sexual objectification and violence – makes women generally more fearful and anxious. The researchers from the University of Missouri-Kansas and Georgia State University found a substantive “link between physical safety concerns and psychological distress”.

We already know that violence causes trauma, and that people who are bullied and harassed are more likely to be depressed throughout their lives. Research shows that children who live in violent neighborhoods are more prone to developing PTSD, and that the daily fear they experience changes their psychological make-up so drastically that nightmares, flashbacks and disassociation are common. We even know that racism has a demonstrable impact not only on the mental health of people of color, but on their physical health as well.

Yet, despite the preponderance of evidence showing that violent and harassing environments cause emotional distress and can lead to mental illness, we still have no name for what happens to women living in a culture that devalues and allows men to abuse them without consequence.

What does living with the fear of rape do to your mental well-being over time? What diagnosis do you give to the shaking hands you can’t stop after a stranger whispers “pussy” in your ear on your way to work?

And what about those of us who endure the same daily gauntlet of discriminations and threats of gendered violence without really feeling anything because it’s so routine? What hoops did our brains have to jump through to get to ambivalence? Is it really more “normal” not to be anxious?

So this oh-so-spiritual assumption that we’re all prostitutes because we’re not dressed in baggy sacks (and in Egypt, Afghanistan, and Arabia, even women who ARE dressed in baggy sacks still get sexually assaulted and catcalled on a daily basis), we must have it coming to us when we use the streets to get to work, school, doctors’ appointments and the like. And the abuse we are forced to take from random catcallers and sexual assailants takes a mental toll.

Even as an 11-year-old, I knew that being constantly pestered by boys (and MEN — yes, even little girls are not immune) has a terrible effect on one’s brains. It causes one to worry and obsess constantly over one’s safety. And that gets in the way of school, work, and even one’s physical health.

But yes, by all means, please tell us we “need love” because we’re just sluts who dress like we’re asking to be raped, even as we’re still trying to work out a magic formula of dressing that will make it all stop (spoiler: THERE ISN’T ANY). I’m sure that’s not problematic AT ALL!

ktrantingredhead
5 years ago

@paradoxicalintention

-bows-

XD

unfortunately I was only halfway through the comments when I wrote this and I didn’t get to the part where he had been kicked out.

Daeran Zemaitis
Daeran Zemaitis
5 years ago

“Every single woman on the planet has some level of PTSD”

Is it a stretch to say that straight up?

I can’t even wrap my mind about it honestly precisely because I’m not a woman. But when you consider that so called “incels” feel “oppressed” because they can’t have sex with “hot women”. and juxtapose that with being under siege constantly just because of one’s gender then yeah, all i can do is laugh derisively.

“Incels” need to get off the fucking chans and start actually doing shit with their lives.

emilygoddess - MOD
emilygoddess - MOD
5 years ago

Well, one, not all Porn is created equal. Did you know that there is some porn out there that is made by … women !?

And as we all know, women are incapable of participating in misogynistic activities or abusing other women.

Trolly was an idiot (and I’ve screened his blather), but porn is actually pretty awful.

emilygoddess - MOD
emilygoddess - MOD
5 years ago

And I see David has unscreened him. OK, then.

ktrantingredhead
5 years ago

I firmly agree that mainstream pornography has a huge impact on men sense of sexual entitlement… But everything else that dudes said was stupid.

You know latest MRA news about women who oppose the poor treatment of female mainstrean porn stars and how it has a bad influence on society? We’re “slut shaming.”

-dies-

ParadoxicalIntention
5 years ago

*cracks knuckles* Alright, I’m coming off of a very good Rebirth run, so clutch your metaphorical pearls, Matthew (How very dare you sully my little brother’s name like this).

<blockquoteI think it’s the rampant Internet porn that’s causing all this hatred. Porn makes men think that women are only good for sex and that everyone in the world but them is having sex (in graphic detail). Porn basically teaches rape, hatred, and indifference to the value of human life, which ultimately promotes murder.

Citation needed, for one thing.

For another: Yes, it’s good to be critical of porn that objectifies women and makes them out to be sex objects.

No, it’s not good to blame it when men go on stabbing sprees because women won’t fuck them. That’s all on the men who are doing the stabbing. Stop giving these assholes an out. Blame the stabby bastards who would do such a thing, not their circumstances.

Also, frankly, the way girls dress nowadays doesn’t help. They dress like prostitutes, and men expect sex from prostitutes (but real prostitutes actually put out on request). Women are creating this problem and dooming themselves. Only those of us who are more spiritual can see through the illusion.

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view3/1290449/picard-facepalm-o.gif

In the words of Lily Allen: Fuck you. Fuck you very, very much.

This kind of behavior is NOT HELPING. You’re CONTRIBUTING TO THE PROBLEM. How? By giving rapists an out and blaming their victim. VICTIM. Learn what it means! “Victim” doesn’t mean “did something to deserve it”. “Victim” means “taken advantage of and hurt by the actions of someone else”.

Clothes are not an invitation, and you do NOT get to police what “girls” wear. Stop shaming women and start teaching men the “value of human life” that you were preaching about a paragraph ago.

Also, did you know that women wearing burqas are raped too? How very fucking intriguing.

Rape is NOT ABOUT SEX. It is about POWER.

If rape was about how many partners a person has had, virgins wouldn’t get raped. But they do.

If rape was about how much she had to drink, then children wouldn’t get raped. But they do.

If rape was about beauty, then only able-bodied, neurotypical white women would get raped. But they’re not the only ones.

If rape was about what you were wearing, then rape statistics would skyrocket in the summer. But they don’t.

If rape was about what you were wearing, then women wearing completely covering religious garb wouldn’t be raped. But they are.

And fuck you and your holier-than-thou pseudo-spirituality. How dare you use your religion as a soapbox to blame women for rape. It’s fucking obscene.

But let’s not confuse sadistic slut bashing with legitimate criticism of slutty behavior. Slutty behavior is not healthy. Think of a drunk homeless person. You can either make fun of him and leave him lying in the gutter, or you can give him a home. Slutty girls need love.

No, let’s not confuse them, because they are one and the fucking same. “Sadistic slut bashing” and “legit” criticism of “slutty behavior” are one and the fucking same. They both stem from sexist bullshit spewed from the mouths of “I know better” men, you’re just trying to dress yours up so we think you’re on “our” side. Fuck you and your mansplaining fuckery.

It’s none of your fucking business what women are doing with their bodies. Period. Full stop. The fucking end. You can disapprove of it and “criticize” it all you want, but you do NOT get to dictate our behaviors. Fuck right off. Neither you or anyone else on this fucking planet should police a woman for who or how many people she chooses sleeps with.

And yeah, “slutty” girls need love. Unconditional, nonjudgmental love. Do you know what that is? Because I sincerely doubt you fucking do.

(I broke my mouse and had to get my spare because of this, I hope you’re fucking happy.)

Argenti Aertheri
5 years ago

All women have PTSD? I…no, it doesn’t work like that. Some VERY quick math says 10%+ do though, since somewhere around 20% are raped at some point, and half of rape victims develop PTSD. So yeah, 10%+.

That 50% of rape victims develop PTSD thing? The only group for which that group is higher is the military, and it isn’t that much higher. So shit be fucked up for sure, but the gross generalization is a bit offensive to those of us with actual diagnosed disabiling PTSD.

Tangentially, my day tomorrow involves being stuck surrounded by loud equipment and pretty much unable to move while my mouth is poked at. I hate the dentist SO MUCH. There will be benzos, and I may see if R will take me back to the shop with him afterwards to distract me (I need to use some of their equipment to build Darwin’s enclosure, not absolute NEED, but it’d make it much easier)

Mouse Farts
Mouse Farts
5 years ago

ParadoxicalIntention?

I…I kind of love you a little bit. Can we be friends?

ParadoxicalIntention
5 years ago

@Mouse Farts

Fuck yeah we can be friends. C’mere and hug me, friend!

http://i.imgur.com/RA6Es.jpg

Hugs for all!

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

I just don’t understand the argument that slutty clothes are responsible for rape. It just isn’t true. In my state there was a nursing home employee who got arrested for raping patients. Does Matthew think that 90 year old women with dementia were dressed like slutty tempstresses?

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

I just don’t understand the argument that slutty clothes are responsible for rape. It just isn’t true. In my state there was a nursing home employee who got arrested for raping patients. Does Matthew think that 90 year old women with dementia were dressed like slutty tempstresses?

How dare they get Alzheimer’s…and wear those oh-so-tempting backless hospital gowns, too!

katz
5 years ago

Most porn is crap, but it’s not like it’s impossible to make porn that’s respectful of women. There’s plenty of good indie stuff.

samantha
5 years ago

(I broke my mouse and had to get my spare because of this, I hope you’re fucking happy.)

ParadoxicalIntention, you have said what I was thinking…and you did it so well that I am awed.

Thank you. There is nothing I could ever hope to add.

Lea
Lea
5 years ago

“Every single woman on the planet has some level of PTSD”

…and the misogynists responsible for it then use that PTSD to mock women, call us all “crazy” = completely untrustworthy or capable. We’re called weak for being damaged by a culture of rape, inequality and fear. “Crazy” people are blamed for the violence that causes that fear. Then crazy = all human evil and women are still “crazy”.

Handy little loop to trap women in, isn’t it?

ktrantingredhead
5 years ago

Re: slutty clothes and slutty behavior

The idea that slutty clothes or slutty behavior encourage or promote or have any increased affect on rape is pretty silly when you consider that in countries where women literally cover themselves head to toe and are barely allowed to leave the house rape occurs all the fucking time!

Tina
Tina
5 years ago

Oh, dear. I haven’t gotten through all the comments on this one but it’s been bugging me now for days. I just can’t wrap my mind around someone wanting to use another human being, a hot babe, as a thing to be used to gain admiration and an open door to other hot babes. Like stylish clothing or hairstyle. A thing. And sex with a hot babe being the only thing to bolster a guy’s self esteem, huh? That’s shallow and again reduces the hot babes to nothing but things. I don’t feel sorry for these guys, not even the ones who aren’t looking for a bigger body count (those need to be profiled and watched). Gain some insight, fellas, and grow out of this. sheesh

Jono
Jono
5 years ago

@Ellesar, Don’t blame this on psychiatric disorders. Even if he has one, it has nothing to do with his actions. He’s already had a diagnosis of ASD, which has gotten us worried that this guys actions would be based on autism/Aspergers. We’ve been talking about him before David made this blogpost:

http://wrongplanet.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=275057&p=6440794#p6440794

Eliot Rodger Was A Terrorist
Eliot Rodger Was A Terrorist
5 years ago

I suspect it won’t be long before these guys start joining ISIS, or another similar radical Islamic organization.

In fact, it’s already happening; the South Korean kid who joined ISIS recently cited his hatred of feminism and his MRA-like opinions as his reason for joining.

For a “Christian Grey” wannabe who wants to create a world in which he has total power over women, and can make these do anything he wants them to do, ISIS and Boko Haram’s brand of Islam is practically a dream come true for them.

I really do think that these self-proclaimed “incels” and MRAs are only going to become more violent, and more inclined toward Jihadism, in the future.

samantha
5 years ago

I really do think that these self-proclaimed “incels” and MRAs are only going to become more violent, and more inclined toward Jihadism, in the future.

Sadly, Eliot Rodger Was A Terrorist, I have to agree. My husband and I have been discussing just this for the past few weeks and we have come to one, very terrifying, understanding – that this has happened before and will happen again. Historically, one of a number of places we can look is the centuries-long Inquisition of the old Catholic Church. When, desiring money, land and power, the church held up the “demon” of “witchcraft” to the people and gave it a mainly female face, the fires burned. In some towns so many women were killed, they had to import wives. And they did not stop with adult women. Girl babies were thrown on the fires and young girl children were forced to watch their mothers burn.

Anytime the power elite want to gain more power and/or protect the power and privilege they have, they pick a group – women, people of other colors/religions/nationalities – and they convince the powerless and poor that THOSE folk are the cause of all their suffering. It deflects attention away from the top 1% or so who are the REAL causes of misery, with their political, economic and religious manipulations of society. And we never learn. This is the most recent “movement” and, with the whole world wired for information and communication, it does not take long to spread the hate. Just pick a button and you will find millions ready and willing to push it.

The real problem is not women, it is folk like the Koch brothers. But it is easier to attack the woman/person of color/fill-in-the-blank. And the ones at the top are counting on it.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

“When, desiring money, land and power, the church held up the “demon” of “witchcraft””

Someone did a study of witchcraft trials. In some jurisdictions the accuser received half of the witch’s estate if they were convicted; in others they didn’t. Guess what the result is when you compare prosecution rates between the two.

PussyPowerTantrum
PussyPowerTantrum
5 years ago

One thing that stood out for me when I read about black history in America was the use of terror tactics against black Americans. The threat of violence was enough to keep African-Americans looking over their shoulders, adhering to elaborate social rituals of deference, and families policing their children’s behavior hoping to keep them safe. I couldn’t help but draw parallels to the socially normalized threats against women and the ways it affect women’s behavior and how families bring up their daughters. This is how social control of an oppressed class works. It’s the same pattern with, say, the way caste is upheld in India: Behavioral control backed up by a climate of violence. Misogynists don’t want all women dead any more than most racists want all blacks dead. They want violence against these groups to be a constant, unpredictable threat so the oppressed class live in fear and modify their behavior accordingly, e.g. a woman is afraid to say “no” to sexual advances from a man.

Montel (@waffleater)
5 years ago

how ironic! these nice guy memes arent very nice at all!

Montel (@waffleater)
5 years ago

wait was the last meme suggesting having sex with a dead body???!!!!

jeffermanny7979
jeffermanny7979
5 years ago

well, these are people caught between two conflicting giant forces and bashed for many years by the two!

On the one hand they have the mighty drive to reproduce and rate themselves on that, together with societies high value it places on that (some may argue natural)… and when they try to follow this unstoppable force, they can’t……… for some reason that is apparnetly outside their control…. it just doesnt happen for them, sometimes never! They are punished for failure, punished for inaction… they are cursed! All of this happens inside their bodies. They get to witness the funamentally most important thing to any young person dashed for them and dealt to all those around them. Would you not be even just that tiny bit slightly bitter?

They are then punished very, very severly on many different levels. They feel humiliated, suffer low self esteem, depression…. real suffering that doesnt go away… what happenes when you just cant get something you want really badly, no matter what you try? You get very, very angry! We’re not talking about something that is easily controlled; we’re talking about many, many years of the same drip….drip…drip… water torchure. Thats not to say I think women have an obligation to help out… you cant make someone attracted to you… but what you have to remember is the need to reproduce (or take part in the activity) is hardwirered. You cannot remove yourself from the game… you’re in the game unless you cut something off. There is no escape… nature wanted it that way. The people dont have the option to cool down and come to terms with the fact they dont seem to be entitled to a partner when nearly every one else is.

BUT, if society did watch out for the signs someone was incel, maybe they could look for mental issues that have lead to that outcome and try to correct these as early as possible, especially since a small minority of these people do crack under such pressure and become a danger.

Considering most people meet partners through social circles (78% I belive), I’m willing to bet the main issue is not having a good social life… having access to a social circle. And I’m willing to bet, by far, the main two contributing factors are:

social shyness.
asberger / poor social skills.

Looks do of course factor in.. and I firmly belive a hot (looking) person with the two above problems will rise above it. But, if you’re average or slightly below, the two above problems are more than enough to keep you out of the game for good if you’re a male!

Robert
Robert
5 years ago

Mighty Drive to Reproduce. Oh my.

The phrase “and dealt to all those around them” is, I think, significant. It may be possible to believe that everyone you know is having sex with everyone else you know, and you (and you alone) are the sole outcast who is not gettin none. It is also very unlikely to be true. If you have social shyness* and poor social skills, then yes, every human activity that requires interacting with other humans is going to be a challenge. However, the human brain is a remarkably plastic organ, and its programming can be changed. It’s a simple process – unfortunately, simple is not a synonym for easy.

Oh, let’s just blame those hateful b!t€he$ for everything.

*As opposed to antisocial shyness, which is just obnoxious.

Paradoxical Intention
5 years ago

Shorter jeffermanny7979:

“Everybody wants to fuck! (What’s an ‘asexual’??) It’s a drive all humans have! And when a guy can’t get laid, and he’s also got mental issues (What’s ‘ableism’??), then he just goes out and stabs people!

Please try to empathize with the guy who tried to kill three women! He was obviously suffering! I know women have no responsibility to help out, but it’s still not his fault because the need for sex is hardwired into our brains, and he was being punished for not getting any! (What’s an ‘asexual’ again?) So, I’m really saying he should have gotten the sex he felt entitled to!

He’s just bitter and sad he couldn’t get laid, which is something everyone needs! (No, but seriously, what’s an ‘asexual’?)”

Paradoxical Intention
5 years ago

Shorter jeffermanny7979 aside: “What’s ‘necroing’ mean?”

Spindrift
Spindrift
5 years ago

Speaking as a recluse with social anxiety issues, I’ve never once had the urge to kill any women cause of any unfulfilled desire to reproduce. Possibly cause I think of women as people and not walking sex orifices.

M.
M.
5 years ago

asberger / poor social skills.

Look, kid, I know “Assburgers” is a common joke around 4Chan (when they’re not all falsely claiming to be autistic as an online get-out-of-jail-free card), but “Asperger’s” doesn’t actually have a B in it.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

People are dealt sexual partners? If I’m not satisfied with the hand of men I’m dealt can I draw a few more. I’m holding out for a royal flush!

Moocow
Moocow
5 years ago

WARNING, HUGE ZOMBIE TEAL DEAR INCOMING

“well, these are people caught between two conflicting giant forces and bashed for many years by the two!”

Ah yes, the “well both sides are kind of problematic” argument. Also known as “shit, our movement is pretty shitty, I can’t really deny that, so I’ll claim that the OTHER side is just as bad”

“On the one hand they have the mighty drive to reproduce and rate themselves on that, together with societies high value it places on that (some may argue natural)…”

Yes, it’s also known as “toxic masculinity”, the incredibly unhealthy belief that men “always have to be ready to fuck” because “all men want sex all the time otherwise they’re not a MAYUN”. The fact that you actually believe that this is some force of nature shows just how prevalent this toxic masculinity truly is.

“and when they try to follow this unstoppable force, they can’t………”

THE DESIRE TO PUT YOUR PENIS IN SOMEONE IS NOT AN UNSTOPPABLE FORCE

“for some reason that is apparnetly outside their control….”

Ah yes, how dare a woman have her own desires/thoughts/rights? The “if women would just fuck these people they won’t go on killing sprees” argument has been skewered enough times that I don’t feel the need to even address it. Naturally, the problem is once again called toxic masculinity. Men’s self-worth SHOULD NOT be determined by their sexual history. It’s bullshit and feminists like myself are fighting to end this.

“it just doesnt happen for them, sometimes never!”

Aw, am I supposed to actually feel sorry for the type of guy who goes on message boards complaining about how “every girl is a type of slut”? Next you’ll try and tell me that they’re some sort of nice guy.

“They are punished for failure, punished for inaction… they are cursed!”

Wow so NOT putting any sort of effort and thus NOT forming any relationship is now a curse? If it is, it’s a self-fulfilling curse.

Also do explain how they are “punished for failure”. I’ve gotten rejected plenty of times, nobody came by to “punish me”.

“All of this happens inside their bodies. They get to witness the funamentally most important thing to any young person dashed for them and dealt to all those around them.”

Another problem of society: stop elevating sex to “the fundamentally most important thing to any young person”, it’s not healthy and will lead to disappointment.

As Mark Twain said:

‘One of life’s most over-valued pleasures is sexual intercourse; of one of life’s least appreciated pleasures in defecation.’

“Would you not be even just that tiny bit slightly bitter?”

No because I’m not an entitled fuckwad who sees women as sex-dispensing machines. I get rejected, and I move the fuck on because I respect her decision to not want to date me. Rejection hurts, it’s part of the risk. If you cannot handle having your feelings hurt, you do not need to participate. Of course, if you don’t participate, don’t expect to get a relationship.

“They are then punished very, very severly on many different levels.”

So vague. Do tell, who is punishing them? Why are they punished? What are all these different levels

“They feel humiliated, suffer low self esteem, depression…. real suffering that doesnt go away…”

You know what else “doesnt go away”? Getting STABBED or SHOT. This is why the phrase “men are afraid women will laugh at them; women are afraid men will kill them” sadly describes the world of dating way too accurately.

Also, depression does not just happen through getting rejected. That’s when you need to see a therapist.

“what happenes when you just cant get something you want really badly, no matter what you try? You get very, very angry!”

No, that’s how a TODDLER reacts when his or her parent doesn’t let them have a cookie. Once you’re old enough to date you’re supposed to know a LITTLE more about how life works, that the universe does not revolve around you and you’re not going to get every single one of your needs reacted.

“We’re not talking about something that is easily controlled; we’re talking about many, many years of the same drip….drip…drip… water torchure.”

I’m amused that you’re expecting ANYONE to feel sympathy for someone who puts NO effort into their dating life, has a temper tantrum when they get rejected, and then goes on messageboards to complain about how “all girls are kind of sluts”.

“Thats not to say I think women have an obligation to help out… you cant make someone attracted to you… but”

Oh classic, the “i’m not X buuuuuuuuut….” fallacy.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/I%27m_not_prejudiced,_but

“what you have to remember is the need to reproduce (or take part in the activity) is hardwirered.”

Following that same logic, my need to shit is hardwired, therefore should be allowed to shit whenever and wherever I want.

“You cannot remove yourself from the game… you’re in the game unless you cut something off. There is no escape… nature wanted it that way.”

Once again, the idea of men being ‘uncontrollable sexual animals’ is a bullshit myth that contributes to toxic masculinity. If you genuinely have the CONSTANT urge to sex all the time, you need to speak with a sex therapist.

“The people dont have the option to cool down and come to terms with the fact they dont seem to be entitled to a partner when nearly every one else is.”

Wow, you’ve hit the dailydouble bullshit.

1. No, people very much DO have the option to cool down and come to terms with the fact that not everyone is put on this earth to cater to their needs. It’s a part of growing up.

2. You actually think people are entitled to having someone as a partner.

“BUT, if society did watch out for the signs someone was incel, maybe they could look for mental issues that have lead to that outcome”

Being misogynistic, being incapable of handling rejection, seeing people as entitled to the bodies of others, never asking anyone out then complaining about not getting dates. These attitudes are twisted and fucked up, but they are NOT mental issues.

“and try to correct these as early as possible, especially since a small minority of these people do crack under such pressure and become a danger.”

The way to get rid of these toxic attitudes is to GET RID of bullshit gender roles and put an end to toxic masculinity. Making it ok for men to express their emotions without being told to “man up”. The fact that you just perpetuated the stereotype that “men can’t control themselves” shows me that we ain’t there yet.

“Considering most people meet partners through social circles (78% I belive), I’m willing to bet the main issue is not having a good social life… having access to a social circle. And I’m willing to bet, by far, the main two contributing factors are:”

Really? You needed a statistic to conclude that “people date by socializing amongst friends”?

“social shyness.
asberger / poor social skills.”

Um, no. I think blatant misogyny, entitlement, constantly complaining about how the world is out to get them was probably a LITTLE more off-putting to their peers. I know this because I have HAD friends like that. “had” being the key word.

“Looks do of course factor in.. and I firmly belive a hot (looking) person with the two above problems will rise above it. But, if you’re average or slightly below, the two above problems are more than enough to keep you out of the game for good if you’re a male!”

That brings up another point. Let’s say that poor social skills is the main factor (obviously it isn’t, but I do agree that poor social skills leads to a lack of relationships). Wouldn’t the obvious solution be “teach these men better social behavior?”

Spindrift
Spindrift
5 years ago

Nice one, Moocow.

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
5 years ago

I’m an abuse survivor with depression who was bullied, and I’ve managed not to kill anyone. You’re full of shit and misogyny, jeffermanny.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
5 years ago

On the one hand they have the mighty drive to reproduce and rate themselves on that, together with societies high value it places on that (some may argue natural)… and when they try to follow this unstoppable force, they can’t……… for some reason that is apparnetly outside their control…. it just doesnt happen for them, sometimes never! They are punished for failure, punished for inaction… they are cursed! All of this happens inside their bodies. They get to witness the funamentally most important thing to any young person dashed for them and dealt to all those around them. Would you not be even just that tiny bit slightly bitter?

Alternative framing. They have a sex drive and a relationship drive, but haven’t been able to form a relationship with someone. They get jealous of people around them who do have the relationships they’d like to have.

Wow… when you phrase it without the absurd hyperbole, it sounds almost… mundane. Almost like practically everyone else in the world with the same drives have gone through the same thing at some point in their lives.

They are then punished very, very severly on many different levels. They feel humiliated, suffer low self esteem, depression…. real suffering that doesnt go away… what happenes when you just cant get something you want really badly, no matter what you try? You get very, very angry! We’re not talking about something that is easily controlled; we’re talking about many, many years of the same drip….drip…drip… water torchure.

Oops, how did that video get here? Huh, well, since we’re on a tangent, the interesting thing about this test is that the children who do best are the ones who are able to distract themselves and do something else. The ones who fail are the ones who constantly think about the marshmellow until it fills their mind and they break down.

Anyway, what were we talking about?

The people dont have the option to cool down and come to terms with the fact they dont seem to be entitled to a partner when nearly every one else is.

If they think other people have partners because they were entitled to one, they are fundamentally misunderstanding what a relationship is. A partner is not a possession one has; a partner is a person that one does things with. Maybe if they saw women as fellow people and not masturbatory tools, maybe it’d be more likely that a woman would want them to be her partner as well.

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