Check out Margaret Corvid’s fascinating piece in the New Statesman on male sexuality and the appeal of misogynistic movements to sexually frustrated men. As a professional dominatrix who’s also a feminist, she’s acutely aware of the ways conventional masculinity restricts and impoverishes male sexuality.
When I became a professional dominatrix after years in the kink scene, I expected my kinky work to involve lots of spanking, whipping and bondage. And, to my delight, it has. But in the majority of my sessions, I am creating a space for men to explore areas of their sexual lives that society feels are unmanly; they come to me to be penetrated, to be used, to serve, to submit, to worship, to be taken. A client might have any or all of a bewildering array of fetishes, but they mostly come to me to experience something well outside the very narrow confines of what society says that it means to be a man.
Unfortunately, as she notes, Men’s Rightsers and Pickup Artists offer nothing to men who feel confined by these narrow notions of manhood; indeed, their definitions of manhood are both retrograde and restrictive.
One of the greatest tragedies of the men’s rights movement is that, in the end, its lessons serve only to drive men further away from what they yearn for. Pick up artist techniques and aggrieved entitlement are unlikely to help men achieve the goal of intimacy, but feminist values can teach them the skills to communicate with respect.
You’ll notice a few quotes in there from me, from an email interview she did with me as well as from my post Is the Men’s Rights Movement driven by the rage of the rejected? (I also discussed the issue in this post on the weird sexual undercurrents in A Voice for Men’s Facebook “memes.”)
Hi Brooked
Oh well, my original posts are now way back up the thread and probably best un resurrected.
I happened to find DonnaL to be a dreary troll who couldn’t stick the flounce. Just my opinion. *shrug*
That second quote of yours isn’t from me. But when someone denigrates trans women and links to hate sites, as Kittehserf did more than once in this very thread — despite the fact that there were trans women at Feministe who considered her their friends and were unfailingly nice to her for years, which didn’t deter her from doing this behind our backs — she deserves whatever was said about her. You have the victims and the betrayer exactly backwards here, because I have every right to feel betrayed by her, and so does every other trans woman who ever knew her there. (Plus this website never mocks anyone, of course.)
I can see that David’s directive did no good at all, and that some people just can’t take being told that this is supposed to be a trans-friendly, TERF-free place. Shiraz, you — trans women are men (comparing me to her brother in a conversation about women getting mammograms, and calling me “sexist” for explaining that if I had her family history my need for mammorgams would be the same as hers?); your comment that TERFs should be allowed. I am not slandering anyone or everyone. You’re the one who’s disobeying David, and obviously doesn’t give a damn about trans people or making this a welcoming place for trans people.
Most of this thread happened before I said a word here. I am not the issue; I am not the problem. You and people like you are the problem.
Seriously? You reject the idea of cis privilege? I can’t believe I read that.
You’re another part of the problem, Alex. I’m not the one who called Ally a “toxic person.” I’ve known her since she was 16, and she’s the opposite of that. But insulting people seems to be your only contribution. I suppose David is a troll too for agreeing with most of the criticisms of what went on here.
I hope at least some people can see why I so upset by a supposedly trans-friendly website seemingly allowing this sort of garbage.
And by the way, you need to learn how to read better if you think my saying “final comment” when I thought the discussion had ended constituted a flounce.
You’re being a big baby because your little clique was slapped on the wrist.
Oh, shut up. Stop being a dismissive and belittling. If you ever actually cared about the quality of discourse here you are on beyond that now. I’m sure you are just having super fun sticking around and stirring the shit, but you haven’t slapped any wrists and this is not as clique of naughty children or a schoolyard. You made your point. Now you are just entertaining yourself by stepping on toes. Cut it out. People are actually trying to understand, find the right way to proceed and do their best. If you are not interested in being one of those people, why are you here?
Donna,
It’s wishful thinking on our part. Please, just flounce. Your petty insults are not helping.
This website “allows” all sorts of garbage and if you’d clamber down off your high horse of righteous judgement for 5 seconds you’d see that when people post garbage it gets called out. There have been far more commenters calling out what was said than those who were doing problematic things (as is always the case). Your input has been less than unhelpful to say the least but I suppose you can be happy to have shut down another space for women to talk by making everything about you. CONGRATS!
I realise men comment here as well. You know what I mean. Hopefully it doesn’t need to be stated but I mean ALL women as well. Stupid language with it’s stupid definitions. I JUST WANT TO TALK ABOUT MRA DOLTS AND LOOK AT PICTURES OF KITTIES DAMNIT
Seconding what Lea said.
I don’t see anyone being able to learn from this or come to any agreement if shit stirrers keep it up.
So wait, is this about WHTM being antagonist to trans people and this being a bad thing, because trans people deserve safe spaces where they can be happy because they are worthy, valuable and wonderful people?
Or is this about a group of people being mean to your friend Ally and you being her internet flying protector monkey?
Or is this about how Kittehserf “betrayed you” by, what, changing her opinion on things over time?
‘Cause, I mean, dear god, maybe just stick to one point of anger? I’m all for having a discussion about how we can all participate to make this a more open, friendly, delightful space for everybody, but the only one disobeying (!?!?!) David and continuing to make this a really unpleasant, mean-spirited, nasty and attack-y debate is, well, you.
But this is reading less and less like an honest debate about how to be more open and friendly, and more along the lines of the Donna L. Betrayal Hour where you scream about how we’re all evil, mean and cruel for bullying and mocking your friends and how Kittehserf is, like, the worst person ever for thinking what she does and one time posting on your site and now posting stuff here. It’s… pretty dramatic, y’know.
So if ya’s gonna keep raging
I’ve gotta get a page in
point out when you swear
you’re full of rage and hot air
for your words I don’t care
Your insinuations are shit
and you lack grace and wit
I don’t like your protestions one bit!
People don’t betray you by changing opinions
and t’is really poor form to attempt to pinion
by way of tarring with assocations of evil
monstrous intentions, as if we’re just some overlord’s minion
I’m all for polite conversation
I desire friendly ministrations
I want to love everybody, equally true
and I hope you reading this do too!
It’s a better world that way
and we can all be in it
Yet if you start out with debates by trying to “win it”
I’ve gotta say it’s a poor piece of sin, innit?
Lurker for some time, but first time commenting, but how is Donna L highlighting the repeated transphobic comments that have been made, and defending herself from being called a troll constitute being a shit stirrer?…
*gif of kitties dancing to Fibinachi’s awesome song*
This discussion is no longer constructive. I’m closing the thread.