Check out Margaret Corvid’s fascinating piece in the New Statesman on male sexuality and the appeal of misogynistic movements to sexually frustrated men. As a professional dominatrix who’s also a feminist, she’s acutely aware of the ways conventional masculinity restricts and impoverishes male sexuality.
When I became a professional dominatrix after years in the kink scene, I expected my kinky work to involve lots of spanking, whipping and bondage. And, to my delight, it has. But in the majority of my sessions, I am creating a space for men to explore areas of their sexual lives that society feels are unmanly; they come to me to be penetrated, to be used, to serve, to submit, to worship, to be taken. A client might have any or all of a bewildering array of fetishes, but they mostly come to me to experience something well outside the very narrow confines of what society says that it means to be a man.
Unfortunately, as she notes, Men’s Rightsers and Pickup Artists offer nothing to men who feel confined by these narrow notions of manhood; indeed, their definitions of manhood are both retrograde and restrictive.
One of the greatest tragedies of the men’s rights movement is that, in the end, its lessons serve only to drive men further away from what they yearn for. Pick up artist techniques and aggrieved entitlement are unlikely to help men achieve the goal of intimacy, but feminist values can teach them the skills to communicate with respect.
You’ll notice a few quotes in there from me, from an email interview she did with me as well as from my post Is the Men’s Rights Movement driven by the rage of the rejected? (I also discussed the issue in this post on the weird sexual undercurrents in A Voice for Men’s Facebook “memes.”)
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“Does that mean if I feel a certain way, I can forgo mammograms — even if breast cancer runs in my family — which it does, and pretend I won’t be a good candidate for getting it? Eh, better safe than sorry, I think.”
Not really. It means that trans women with the same family history face the same risk that you do.
And if the existence of cis privilege vis a vis trans people in certain contexts is seriously up for debate here, I’m sure plenty of people here will be happy to explain to you how it exists. Even for things as apparently trivial to you as not risking arrest for using the correct public bathroom.
I also seem to recall quite a few feminist definitions of violence that go way beyond the physical. And include harassment. Not to mention supporting and helping create a culture that ridicules trans people and holds them in contempt. And being dismissive of their concerns, as you’ve just been.
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That’s fine, can you include citations about feminist violence? You’re saying feminists regularly hurt people? Wow. I’m surprised you post here. If we’re so violent and ragey and all. We don’t hurt trans people — homophobic men do.
My brother doesn’t get mammograms, though he has a very minimal chance of getting breast cancer. His doctor doesn’t recommend he has them.
Please do not patronize me, it’s a very sexist thing to do .
Okay. But if we’re going off this new definition of hatred and prejudice–where you actually have to commit violence in order for it to be real–can we let all of the Westboro Baptist Church off the hook because there’s no evidence that any of them have never physically harmed a gay or trans person in their lives? (Note: this is not comparing you to the Westboro Baptist Church. This is demonstrating the poor logic of the claim that feminists can’t be transphobic because they’re not violent against trans people like homophobic men are.)
What? feminists are the same thing as the Westboro assholes? Since when?
Repeat: (Note: this is not comparing you to the Westboro Baptist Church. This is demonstrating the poor logic of the claim that feminists can’t be transphobic because they’re not violent against trans people like homophobic men are.)
Then I guess you need to define transphobic. I don’t want anyone to be hurt, for god’s sake.
Examples that have been brought up by other commenters: misgendering (triggering for those with dysphoria), non-violent harassment, doxxing. No one here seems to have done any of those things, except for your last few comments, which have definitely contained implications of misgendering in addition to outrage at the idea that women could be transphobic. No one here is saying that women, let alone feminist women, are anywhere near as much of a threat to trans people as homophobic men are. The idea that people are taking exception to is the idea that cis women can’t possibly ever do anything bad to trans women.
Shiraz, I can’t believe I have to say this, but it is not okay for a socially dominant group to declare that they’re not privileged and that the minority group does not actually suffer oppression.
Thank you, Katz!
You’ve been speaking the truth a lot on this thread, and it’s emboldened me to express some of my opinions.
Look, I didn’t doxx or harass anyone. Those actions are vile.
I love the idea of gender non-conformity. It’s awesome. Biology is real, however. That is not hate. Women did not create patriarchy, men did, long… ago. Now we’re all stuck with the baggage. I do hope you live long and prosper. It’s my wish for everyone. Please have a good night.
“My brother doesn’t get mammograms, though he has a very minimal chance of getting breast cancer. His doctor doesn’t recommend he has them.
Please do not patronize me, it’s a very sexist thing to do .”
What does your brother have to do with anything?
I am a woman. I am not being “sexist” towards you. I am not patronizing you. I have been having mammograms for years, at my doctor’s recommendation, because my breasts are exactly like those of any other woman.
If you can’t even bring yourself to classify trans women as women, then you definitely didn’t read what David had to say, and I am not going to bother debating you.
Shiraz, I’m sorry that I have to say this, but if you don’t buy that trans women are women, then you’re contributing to the culture that causes homophobic men to attack them on the grounds that they’re gay men pretending to be women in order to trick straight men into sleeping with them.
Second what Katz said. I’m not sure how anyone could think we don’t have privilege as cis people. I mean, nobody will give me a hard time for using the women’s bathroom. If I die, I don’t have to worry about the obituary misgendering me. I don’t have strangers speculating about my genitals all the time. Does something this basic really need to be gone over? This is social justice 101 stuff.
http://i.imgur.com/1DbpRVE.gif
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Shiraz, if you do consider trans women to be women but don’t consider them to be biologically female because of their chromosomes but aren’t (as marinerachel phrased it when talking about her own non-female karyotype) inclined to kick them out of the woman club, then I’m sorry.
About my last comment accusing you of intentional misgendering that is. Your denial of cis privilege, the damage that cis women can do to trans women, and the biological effects of HRT, however, are problematic.
Hi all
I used that troublesome word in an earlier post and referred to a particular scenario. I didn’t realise the word was so loaded and could be so hurtful so please accept my apologies for contributing to this whole can of worms.
I’m not sure what you’re referring to Alan but if TERF issues were brewing then they had to be addressed.
Also I associate number ninja with mocking dreary trolls, so I don’t think this is the thread for it.
I think the number ninja is…well, I know this is why I took part…we like everyone here, and we just hate everyone arguing.
Huh,
So Ally can return with a hit squad and start getting people banned and taken off mod duties? Interesting development. Also I read their little convo over on feministe where they’re denigrating kittehserf:
So mocking people over there is fine and dandy but accepting biological reality is the greatest sin of all?
Welp, guess I’d better be banned as well then. I am deeply unimpressed with the way this has gone down. I was one of the people who originally felt shut down (and god forbid) silenced by Ally when she used to post. That doesn’t mean I wanted her to leave. I also don’t think humourlessradfem should have to leave when she has never been anything but courteous while this Donna is swaggering about slandering everyone (yes actually slandering ms lawyerpants) left right and centre.
I don’t see why trans issues are more sacred than religious issues. Everything seems to stem from whether one believes that gender if fluid and sex is binary or vice versa, which in practice is no different in believing in a god or not. People aren’t going to suddenly start agreeing.
I was actually going to stay out of this one seeing as I was unwittingly instrumental in the last thread of doom, but as Argenti used to say – don’t go after my friends.