Check out Margaret Corvid’s fascinating piece in the New Statesman on male sexuality and the appeal of misogynistic movements to sexually frustrated men. As a professional dominatrix who’s also a feminist, she’s acutely aware of the ways conventional masculinity restricts and impoverishes male sexuality.
When I became a professional dominatrix after years in the kink scene, I expected my kinky work to involve lots of spanking, whipping and bondage. And, to my delight, it has. But in the majority of my sessions, I am creating a space for men to explore areas of their sexual lives that society feels are unmanly; they come to me to be penetrated, to be used, to serve, to submit, to worship, to be taken. A client might have any or all of a bewildering array of fetishes, but they mostly come to me to experience something well outside the very narrow confines of what society says that it means to be a man.
Unfortunately, as she notes, Men’s Rightsers and Pickup Artists offer nothing to men who feel confined by these narrow notions of manhood; indeed, their definitions of manhood are both retrograde and restrictive.
One of the greatest tragedies of the men’s rights movement is that, in the end, its lessons serve only to drive men further away from what they yearn for. Pick up artist techniques and aggrieved entitlement are unlikely to help men achieve the goal of intimacy, but feminist values can teach them the skills to communicate with respect.
You’ll notice a few quotes in there from me, from an email interview she did with me as well as from my post Is the Men’s Rights Movement driven by the rage of the rejected? (I also discussed the issue in this post on the weird sexual undercurrents in A Voice for Men’s Facebook “memes.”)
How about a Green Machine (if they still make ’em)? They’re recumbent and you can do a mean drift with them:
[Well, okay, maybe when they’re a bit older]
Sorry to see you go Dvärghundspossen. I know you may just be doing that for your own sanity, but if it’s a protest, what are you hoping to achieve for trans people by leaving?
I’m open to discussion and I promise to listen. I just don’t know where. Not here. Any suggestions?
QFT. And what I wish I had said, had I felt brave. This place really doesn’t feel too friendly to anyone who isn’t a) a regular or b) comfortable with how the regulars comport themselves.
Sorry guys, but it’s just too problematic to gloss over with cute and furry animals, even considering how graciously people have agreed to disagree. I will never be able to stop giving side-eye to those who posted, doubled down on, or defended those less-than- subtle transphobic sentiments. Y’all have a problem here, even if you can change the subject and go back to being friends.
I’m still second-guessing whether it’s my place to say all that, but this thread has been an absolute travesty and I can’t sit by and be cool with it.
Sorry.
Sorry, I did promise to talk about cats or nothing for the rest of the thread.
@proxieme: I think I saw your child in this past season of Doctor Who.
It is an awful cute picture.
Humourless, I respect that. Perhaps our silences would be preferable, at this point. I’m certainly going to forsake this thread and read the latest update. Peace.
Fuck it. I’ve been reading this blog for years and occasionally commenting though I mostly lurk. The transphobia is this thread has been really fucking unacceptable. I’ve had my own identity (genderfluid/genderqueer) called into question by one of the mods. I’m with katz, this place is not friendly to trans people. I was willing to let calling kink abuse go, it sucks to see that in a space I usually consider pretty awesome, but I’m used to it and it’s not nearly on the level of awful as transphobia and transmisogyny. I expected better on trans issues though. I’ll just stick to reading David’s posts and avoid the comments from now on since clearly it’s not a place that is as welcoming as I thought it was.
Can at least people who have expertize in law as it relates to threats please read the new post? I feel like these guys may be gearing themselves up to do something really bad.
@Falconer
Balance bike!!!onehundredeleven. My twins absolutely love theirs with fiery passion. If they could, they’d sleep with them under their pillows. The advantages:
1. They can start out walking on them, then progress gradually to running and then gliding with their feet up for longer and longer distances. The learning curve is very gentle and they’ll be able to feel successful right away.
2. They’re much lighter and easier for little ones to maneuver than bikes with training wheels
3. Tricycles are slow, tippy, and don’t corner well (we’ve had a couple of epic wipeouts)
4. It’s much easier to learn how to balance first, then pedal, rather than the other way around.
5. Your kids will be able to go right to “big boy bikes” by age 4 or 5. You won’t have to shell out for an extra set of bikes with training wheels.
6. You can go out riding as a family sooner, and go farther and faster.
7. They’re super cool. I wish they made them in grownup sizes!
8. Some of them have hand brakes designed for toddlers, so they can start learning how to use them early on.
There’s a balance bike site, twowheelingtots.com, that has reviews and videos. Worth checking out if you’re interested.
I did not mean to imply it was like talking about religion in the workplace, but I can see how I gave that impression.
Clearly you missed the huge blow up ages ago about religion, which was also about people’s lives, commenter’s lives. That blow up and tremendous thread meltdown was what I had in mind, because real people were being hurt, triggered, and traumatized by comments, and the only way to salvage anything was to agree not to argue religion, especially Catholicism, ever again.
I just made the suggestion because it seemed to work that time; I guess this time it isn’t.
In my more cynical moments, I sometimes suspect that trolls come here to sow the seeds of dissension by brining up TERF’s and transperson (especially transwoman) issues in OT threads, just to watch the inevitable fight we’ll have, and see how many regulars they can get to leave the blog. I don’t remember who brought this up, this time (and I’m not wading through all this again to look it up) but every time this comes up, there’s a fight and some people leave.
If I were a sneaky sort of forward thinking troll, who wanted to cut down the Mammotheer population a bit, I might do something like that, knowing that it’s a ‘soft target’ given the history of the topic around here. Or, maybe I should stop reading so much Chomsky and Bernays. Or loosen my tinfoil hat a wee bit.
I also agree with kirbywarp, about both sides arguing against people who aren’t in the room.
Dittoing this. Women are women, bigotry is bigotry and we’re all in this together.
(I’m mostly staying quiet because I don’t particularly want to be too much of a part of a 700-comment scream-fest, but eh. HumourlessRadicalFeminazi, not cool.)
Hi Mammoth, I’m Ally, the former butch trans lesbian of color commenter that folks here keep alluding to. I firmly believe that most of what’s been said about me in this thread so far has been false. But although I’m willing to address specific accusations against me or possibly talk about transmisogyny in depth, I’m not going to focus on that or initiate that kind of discussion. Nor do I plan on staying here for very long, for I no longer have any interest in being a member of this community due to my experience with it. Instead, my focus will be on two separate but related claims: that TERF is a misogynist slur and that trans women are only oppressed by cis men.
Some history about the term TERF: it originated as a response to radical feminists who wanted to expel trans women from radical feminist spaces and discourses and, in many cases, advocate for their complete annihilation. That’s no exaggeration. The infamous TERF known as Janice Raymond once said that trans women should be “morally mandated out of existence”, and her contributions also directly contributed to institutionalized discrimination against trans people.
Am I saying that all cis TERFs are as powerful and influential (relative to trans women) as Raymond? Of course not. Nevertheless, all TERFs benefit from enacting transmisogyny, even the ones who are trans women themselves. Are many TERFs lesbians, and do lesbians constitute a vilified sexuality? Yes to both. But there are now just as many non-lesbian women who adhere to TERF ideologies, which are increasing in popularity in many corners of the internet, as well as offline social justice spaces. It’s true that some cis lesbian TERFs have faced some very shitty treatment from trans women, yet it is not trans women who are responsible, but rather trans women who are in a position of enacting lesbophobia. Their attacks on some TERFs is evidence of hatred of lesbians, not male entitlement. Please do not hold all trans women responsible for the actions of a handful of trans women who are engaging in lesbophobia, lesbophobia that also harms us trans lesbians.
And so with all of that said, it should be clear as to why we are so averse to TERFs and those who sympathize with them, and therefore why we find the term so important. Although I do think the term is inaccurate in that many non-radical feminists are trans-exclusionary as well (which is I prefer TWEF i.e. “Trans Woman Exclusionary Feminist”), the term at least gives us an opportunity to name the form of transmisogyny that we face at the hands of cis and trans women who should be our allies instead of enemies. Therefore, saying that TERF is a slur is very obviously a silencing attempt against trans women.
Before some people jump at me and think I’m demonizing radical feminists only, please consider the fact that I am both a sex/gender abolitonist and a womanist, who draws great inspiration from most second-wave radical feminists. Radical feminist lesbian writing has been immensely important to my soul, and I admire Andrea Dworkin, Adrienne Rich, and Monique Wittig as much as so many other people here, even the ones who hate me. I am not okay with people assuming that all of radical feminism is necessarily transmisogynistic, because I believe that the structural analyses provided by all of these great writers are valuable and essential. People who have seen me comment here in the past have surely seen proof that I adhere to this position in regards to radical feminism.
Now, onto the second claim: trans women only face institutionalized violence from cis men. This claim is not only wrong, but also actively harmful to us trans women (as can already be seen in the example of TERF politics directly affecting us). Cis women, although oppressed by cis men (and also trans men, on the basis that trans men have male privilege over cis women), nevertheless benefit from transmisogyny on a structural level. They have privilege over us, just as white women have privilege over women of color, just as non-marginalized women have privilege over marginalized women. Many cis women I know, though not all of them, either fetishize us trans women or consider us abject monsters (neither of which reflects a status of privilege over cis women). Granted, I have many cis women in my life whom I deeply love and care about, and surely not all cis women are transmisogynistic, but I just can’t afford to deny the violence that so many of them have enacted against trans women. I know countless trans lesbians who have been abused by cis lesbian partners and treated as fetish objects rather than human beings. And for their sake, I want to speak out and help them find a way to reflect on trauma they may have sustained as a result of relations with transmisogynistic cis women. In closing, I want to say this: if the MRM is one piece of evidence of male supremacy in society, then how isn’t TERF ideology reflective of a transmisogynistic tendency among some cis women in society?
Now, if anyone would like to discuss anything else, I would be happy to do so as long as it is in good faith. I am also willing to discuss any other issues related to my previous presence here, my specific analyses of transmisogyny (shared with many friends, although not originating from me), and so on. And if it would be preferable that I leave, I will do so. I just want at least this comment to be posted and seen by the trans women lurkers here. I hope all of you are doing well, and I am sending well wishes and hugs to anyone who needs them. <333
I hope things are going well for you Ally.
Also, I would like to point out that I have never called anyone here (save a few obvious trolls) a TERF. Ever. The closest I have ever come to doing that has been me merely saying that certain arguments being passed around here sound TERF-sympathetic. It’s kind of like how even though a lot of dudes who whine about oppressive misandry don’t identify as MRAs, they are still MRA-sympathetic with respect to their personal views of women and society and whatnot.
It is good to see you, Ally. I hope things are going week for you, too.
This thread… cripes.
Thanks, Ally.
Sorry I stink at keeping up with email, but thanks for dropping in. Thanks so, so much. I got halfway through the first book before Fire 1 started eating my life, so it’s on hiatus for now until I finish getting my cert. Feel free to lurk or run away again for your own health, but I’m glad to see your name again.
Hugs if you want them.
Also, Sparky, my impression of this thread is a fierce second for yours.
Cripes, gadzooks, S’blood, and purgatory’s dirty lavatory.
Can we do better next time?
I’m just…noping the thread. But AllyS! Good to see you 🙂
I’m happy to see you, Ally, and I hope things are going well for you. I do hope you stick around and comment again. Honestly, if I had my wish, I’d like everyone to come back, whether I agree with them or not. Heck, I’d probably even unban Petrel to let him give it another try.
Except for Woody. Shut up, Woody.
That said, I personally would love it if we could agree to some kind of temporary moratorium on this discussion to allow everyone to de-escalate tensions and detrigger, and I am very much against going back and rehashing any of these arguments to renegotiate their terms. There is nothing to gain and only more to lose in hard feelings and misunderstanding.
Just my $0.02
@gillyrosebee
If it’s best for everyone that this discussion stops (and is replaced by a kitty discussion), then I have no problem leaving again. I’ve said what I wanted to say already. No hard feelings.
To the folks who have greeted me: I appreciate the kind thoughts. Much love to you.
I didn’t say that you should leave, Ally, and I don’t think it’s correct or fair to suggest that is what I did write.
Stay, and let’s talk about kitties, or Margaret Corvid, or Paul Elam, or even (I cringe even as I write it) GamerGate.
I’m saying that people are feeling too triggered right now for the “TERF” discussion to be productive, and I can’t see what will be gained by continuing to have it right now.
@gillyrosebee
Oh, no I didn’t interpret your comment that way at all. I’m sorry for the bad phrasing. I’m just saying that I don’t want to start/restart a discussion if it will end up being unproductive and unhelpful, and that I don’t really have any desire to stick around here if a productive discussion isn’t possible. It’s not out of dislike for you or any of the other people I appreciate here. I just can’t really feel comfortable being a member of this community again, due to past experiences.
Good thing you’ve stated you no longer have any interest in being part of this community, then. Sucks that you’re uncomfortable, it really does, but if discussion is out because it might be unproductive and thus vetoed I don’t even see the point of *being here* and alluding consistently to the people you don’t appreciate or who hates you.
No. Do not want. Do not play. Do not pass fo. Do not collect 200 Fib bucks. If you have no interest in discussing the past, do not constantly bring it up or slyly snipe at those who wronged you or disagreed with you, ’cause that’s some major league poppycock.
Other than that, lots of love and glad to see you’re alive and well!
I don’t think it’s possible *right now* is what I am saying, and as much as I think that it’s a necessary discussion to be had, I don’t see what will happen *right now* other than more misunderstanding and hurt feelings. Right now everyone is triggered and nothing is gained by having discussions when we’re all feeling defensive and upset.
I’m sorry to hear, but I understand that you don’t feel comfortable engaging in conversations on other issues in the meantime. I feel the loss of every voice that has left and I’d personally much rather have everyone stay or come back, as I said.
Again, except for Woody.
Shut up, Woody.
Fibi, all I’m saying is that I don’t want to force an argument of any kind onto people. If people want to talk about the past, that’s fine with me too, but if people feel that a discussion in which I participate would be a bad idea, then I don’t want to push anything. Maybe it would be best if David created a thread here for people to discuss these issues further.
Anyway, the original reason I came here was to say those things I said in my initial comment – I’m down for further discussion of anything related, but only if other people are. I minimally wanted to say those things for the trans women who are here reading these threads. As for why I’ve been talking a little about myself, that’s only because these arguments that have been happening in this thread have been very closely tied to this community’s interactions with me.