Check out Margaret Corvid’s fascinating piece in the New Statesman on male sexuality and the appeal of misogynistic movements to sexually frustrated men. As a professional dominatrix who’s also a feminist, she’s acutely aware of the ways conventional masculinity restricts and impoverishes male sexuality.
When I became a professional dominatrix after years in the kink scene, I expected my kinky work to involve lots of spanking, whipping and bondage. And, to my delight, it has. But in the majority of my sessions, I am creating a space for men to explore areas of their sexual lives that society feels are unmanly; they come to me to be penetrated, to be used, to serve, to submit, to worship, to be taken. A client might have any or all of a bewildering array of fetishes, but they mostly come to me to experience something well outside the very narrow confines of what society says that it means to be a man.
Unfortunately, as she notes, Men’s Rightsers and Pickup Artists offer nothing to men who feel confined by these narrow notions of manhood; indeed, their definitions of manhood are both retrograde and restrictive.
One of the greatest tragedies of the men’s rights movement is that, in the end, its lessons serve only to drive men further away from what they yearn for. Pick up artist techniques and aggrieved entitlement are unlikely to help men achieve the goal of intimacy, but feminist values can teach them the skills to communicate with respect.
You’ll notice a few quotes in there from me, from an email interview she did with me as well as from my post Is the Men’s Rights Movement driven by the rage of the rejected? (I also discussed the issue in this post on the weird sexual undercurrents in A Voice for Men’s Facebook “memes.”)
That sounds awfully salty (and not vegan, for those for whom that’s important).
Ewwww!
If not sea monkeys as pets, what about sea cats?
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-OZsMUAxVZO4/Ugmy8MCAdhI/AAAAAAAAAZ4/2m07PmIBIUQ/s1600/shutterstock_33425515_catoncadizbeach.jpg
New people coming into this thread tomorrow, trying to figure out what just happened.
http://38.media.tumblr.com/6098dd00cbb1bbdec60b105c05aadf41/tumblr_nh7gzvvh6G1s63c00o1_400.gif
Cassandra: I think sea monkeys are also treyf, being shrimp.
@kirbywarp
Got issues with trans-exclusionary feminists? Again, understandable, but those people aren’t here and they aren’t welcome here.
I’m here.
I’m very conscious of trying to stay open and respectful and I will continue to do so in the event this topic comes up again. Absolutely call me out if need be, and if David or one of the mods wants me to stfu or leave I will do so.
@alaisvex
Sorry, I wish I felt I could respond to some of your points without reigniting this as I know, as important as it is to address the fundamental issue of safe space, what it looks like and what it costs, this thread is also too tainted to do this, but I will think about what you’ve said.
Btw, cotton ceiling was coined by Drew DeVeax, trans activist. I don’t know where it got associated with Cathy Brennan.
Sorry for the derail, I won’t comment again on this thread unless it’s cats.
Regardless of topic, I’d love to see more of your comments, HumourlessRadicalFeminazi.
Even more if kitties are involved! 🙂
Kitty don’t care about our drama
http://i.imgur.com/cyCXP0G.jpg
HumorlessRadicalFeminazi,
Thanks for being upfront with us. In return, I guess I ought to do the same, eh?
I really can’t say I’m comfy with you. But, I won’t tell you you have to get out. I think there are some things we’ll agree on, and second wave did do a lot of good things for feminism, and radical feminists are still doing important things.
There are still contributions you can make to this board, I’m sure.
Just… I don’t think we’re ever going to agree on this particular issue. It will color my opinion of you. I’ll do my best to behave and not let it drift over into other subjects. I also really miss some of the folks who have left, because of these debates. I often didn’t agree with everything they said, but I miss their voices.
I respect and am grateful that you are going to be willing to try and be respectful and open. I’ll try to do the same. I’m still all for kitty pics. We can definitely agree on kitty pics.
But I’m not for excluding women of any sort from feminism, radical or otherwise. There may be some issues they are less well equipped to understand and deal with, just as there are some aspects of the trans movement that we are ill-equipped to deal with.
But they are still women, and they still belong. We shouldn’t keep pushing them out. I think the pushing is mostly accidental, but… This place is still important to me, and you all have helped me a lot, and I think we’ll still be able to carry on past this. Eventually. Somehow.
Sorry everyone else, for continuing the Threadmageddon. I’ll stop now. Apology kitty pic to the board at large: If only we could be like kitties and cuddle-pile it out.
http://www.cat-lovers-only.com/images/sleeping-kittens-in-cuddle-pile-500.jpg
I keep trying and trying to understand, but I can’t:
Is that three cats in the pile, or four?
While you were trying to figure out the kitty conundrum a different kitty slipped passed and stole all your tuna. HA.
At first I thought three, but unless the grey one has a big furry tumor on its butt I think that’s another cat’s head.
Did someone say kitty? I got this one is Momma Cat and Marble hunting in the wood pile.
http://imgur.com/ZB7onsO
Not a car but she likes eggs! And escaping, she got out on Friday again.
http://imgur.com/00d0fUj
Apologies for the typos, I don’t do well in the mornings.
Hey…can I comment on the article???
…the thing is? It is very striking to me that the PUA/MRA guys do not want intimacy. They want to be able to render women disposable. The PUA guys are not interested in the women as women. The women are actually a way of accruing status * with their fellow PUA’s.*
I’m probably going to get married to my Mr Crazypants, and we’re kinky…I’m polyamorous, I dunno if he wants to be poly also but I have no worries if he wants to have other women…well, other than the health concerns and the ” play nice with him” aspect.
As regards the thread Ragnarok, and THAT topic again…
ANY gender and any gender variant can be sexually abusive.
Yes. ANY. Gender.
I use the umbrella term sexual abuse to include rape, harassment, child sex abuse, all that. I have spent a lot of time over the past few years on survivor forums, cisgender women sexually abuse too.
…So…assuming your fellow feminist women are not rapists because they claim to be feminist women is actually not an entirely safe assumption. Sex abusers can pretend to be anything if it gets them close to their targets of preference.
…Conversely, any gender can be victimized by any other gender.
…Trans people are people.
Every demographic will have a small portion of malignant assholes.
Can we please not judge any group by the malignant asshole minority, thankyaverymuch?
Little piggy went to market?
And, I’ll show myself out now…
@contrapangloss
Fwiw I have a very high opinion of you. Your comments are always thoughtful and frequently brilliant. Your honesty here makes me admire you more. Thank you.
I miss the people who have left as well. Ally in particular made me really start to think about the weakness of radical feminism’s lack of class analysis.
I don’t have any photos of my cats to hand, and not sure if it will embed or not, but I am in love with this handsome creature:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/Serval_portrait.jpg
At the risk of resurrecting drama, I just want to say that I second everything Contrapangloss said.
My fellow Mammotheers, we stand now on the precipice of history, and our fate hinges on the answer to this most pressing question:
Tricycle, Big Wheel or “balance bike” for my two year olds?
*tries to read back through comments*
*gets overwhelmed*
*sees pictures of cats and cuddle puddles*
*throws out most recent cute picture that she’s taken*
http://imgur.com/sm9zn8V
This is my 2-year-old’s earnest attempt at hide and seek.
tc/falconer – It so depends on the kids.
A tricycle or a scooter may be the best thing for some kids, but an active 2-year-old with good balance can rock a balance bike.
My recommendation: See if you can find a place where you can watch them interact with each – a toy store or a friend’s house.
I’ve guessed – and guessed wrong – multiple times.
Tricycle! (cos memories of my childhood)
I love little kid logic. That picture reminds me of the time when I ran into a wall running inside the house, which I knew I wasn’t supposed to do, so when my mum saw the bruise on my forehead and asked me if I had in fact been doing just that I told her that the wall jumped out and hit me.
Late to the thread, but I’ve read the whole thing with utter dismay. Hope we get a fresh post soon, so we can all go back to being gracious and inclusive of each other. I don’t want to stir up anything else, but I’d feel like I was compromising my values if I didn’t de-lurk to say that I’m disappointed at some of the stuff that’s gone on in this thread. Especially wrt trans inclusivity. I know nobody here is intentionally malicious, but it’s been less than cool.
Anyway, no further discussion to be made there; here’s a kitty or ten.
Love to you all.
Uh… Hadn’t read through the “trans” part of this thread before, only those selective parts of the thread to which I responded. But now I did, and yeah… It’s uncomfortable reading. No, no one said that all trans people do this or that. But if I were to write posts about how men are threatened by women and dig up some extreme feminist comments about how we want to kill all men (and fucking Solanas, of course, who also actually shot a dude) as proof, and then add “obviously not all women or not all feminists are like this”, it would still give a pretty anti-feminist impression. Or if I were to write posts about how white people are harassed and threatened by black people, even if I added “obviously only a minority of black people go around threatening white people”, it wouldn’t exactly be welcoming to blacks.
No one ever claimed that individuals who belong to an oppressed groups can’t be criticized for their behaviour, but it’s when you treat them as representatives of their group, even if you add “obviously not everyone in the group is like that!” that it ends up being -phobic.
Trans women aren’t just murdered and raped by men. They’re also bullied and harassed and doxxed all the fucking time by cis women. And for every trans woman who’s too pushy towards a cis lesbian who isn’t sexually interested in her, there are loads of cis lesbians who will shout out even when it’s completely unsolicited that they’d never ever have sex with someone who’s got a penis because they’re lesbians, serving no other purpose in the context than implying to trans women that they’re unattractive and not real women.
I’ve really liked this place before, but there’s more and more of a really uncomfortable group mentality going on… Like, we’re gonna shoot down in flames anyone who uses “crazy” in an ableist way, but we’re gonna be all tolerant to anti-trans sentiments as soon as someone doesn’t say explicitly “all trans people are bad”?
I’m out of here too.
And yeah, I know I interrupted your furry-animals-party with bad feelings again. I don’t care.