Check out Margaret Corvid’s fascinating piece in the New Statesman on male sexuality and the appeal of misogynistic movements to sexually frustrated men. As a professional dominatrix who’s also a feminist, she’s acutely aware of the ways conventional masculinity restricts and impoverishes male sexuality.
When I became a professional dominatrix after years in the kink scene, I expected my kinky work to involve lots of spanking, whipping and bondage. And, to my delight, it has. But in the majority of my sessions, I am creating a space for men to explore areas of their sexual lives that society feels are unmanly; they come to me to be penetrated, to be used, to serve, to submit, to worship, to be taken. A client might have any or all of a bewildering array of fetishes, but they mostly come to me to experience something well outside the very narrow confines of what society says that it means to be a man.
Unfortunately, as she notes, Men’s Rightsers and Pickup Artists offer nothing to men who feel confined by these narrow notions of manhood; indeed, their definitions of manhood are both retrograde and restrictive.
One of the greatest tragedies of the men’s rights movement is that, in the end, its lessons serve only to drive men further away from what they yearn for. Pick up artist techniques and aggrieved entitlement are unlikely to help men achieve the goal of intimacy, but feminist values can teach them the skills to communicate with respect.
You’ll notice a few quotes in there from me, from an email interview she did with me as well as from my post Is the Men’s Rights Movement driven by the rage of the rejected? (I also discussed the issue in this post on the weird sexual undercurrents in A Voice for Men’s Facebook “memes.”)
I don’t think saying that something plays to male power fantasies is the same as saying those portrayals make them feel good. Fantasies are often about what we aren’t which can ultimately make us feel bad. Similar to female rescue /princess fantasies that are fed to women.
Avoiding packing, yay!
On hot mens, I like creative types, particularly older men–Sir Patrick The-Good-Captain Stewart is probs my ultimate dream boat–and tall, hairy, lanky art school guys with nice butts, bald heads and cool cardigans, like my husband. Contrary to popular Man!Belief, I do not find muscles, money, or perfect hair forever to be particularly attractive and also contrary to Man!Belief, I recognize that my particular tastes are just that–mine, because everyone likes different stuff.
On age, I am a 28 year old married SPINSTER, past her prime and proud of it.
On monster movies, classic Godzilla is my favorite for-serious one, and Godzilla vs. Megalon is my favorite for-funsies one because Jet Jagar, he jock it made of steel.
I’m 44 so yeah another SPINSTER to add to the pile.
Praise Bootsy! I think all of you were way more patient with GP than he deserved. By the third time he called Anita ignorant and arrogant, I was out of patience. When he said there was no sexism in video games, I was done reading.
An example I used to try and explain a lot of this vidja games stuff to my friend Anthony was Assless Chaps Man.
It was long and elaborate, but basically it boiled down to a role reversal deal in which the majority of all playable characters were female. The female characters came in different shapes and sizes–some of them fantasy-confirming tropes, but there were options–and there were at least a few characters that were women of color. These characters were problematic, yes, but there were many of them and they was at least options to choose from.
For male characters, there was only Assless Chaps Guy. Sometimes he was playable, often he was an NPC, but he was always and forever in only assless chaps, no matter what gameplay required for realistic clothing. Assless Chaps Guy was white, period, and came in one shape–beefed out. When he was involved with any of the female characters, it was largely a bunch off ass jokes, sex jokes, or general comment on appearance over anything else.
This was before Hashtag GamerGate, but it kind of helped him see the other side of things. Yeah, unrealistic characters exist for men–they’re mostly white-washed and they do represent some really shite “manly man” stereotypes, but at least there’s the option to discuss those issues instead of having the one (or very few) character who is supposed to represent you be a walking pair of tits and very rarely anything else.
I’m 47, and that means I hit the wall two decades ago, to hear SPINSTERboy tell it.
I neither noticed nor gave a rat’s ass. And neither did all the lovely guys who expressed interest in me.
I missed most of this thread and just took a long time slogging through it. I don’t think I would have hopped in if I were experiencing it in real-time, especially with the concurrent arguments.
But I have to say I suspected GP from the first. His first appearance he pulled out an abelism, usually an indicator of someone who hasn’t done homework or lurked long enough. An apology followed that sounded sincere. But the next appearance, BANG!, same abelist word. Right then I knew it was about to go wrong, and when I came back: yep, person who pulls out all the GG talking points while trying every sorry defense of bad behavior in the playbook. The moment he called Anita Sarkeesian “arrogant,” which is a GG buzzword (essentially it means she uses academic methods when making her arguments while also being a woman; it’s similar to “uppity” as used by racists) I don’t think there was any coming back.
Unfortunately, I think this thread will be necroed multiple times in the coming months.
I really hope you’re wrong, Cassie’s Major Domo! Necro’ing this thread would be the ultimate evil! ::shudders and makes mystical signs to ward off demons::
I think my favorite was the comment about how badass lady Godzilla must be. Just … I mean, where to begin?
@ Jarnsaxa – re tennis shorts/skirts: I was at my peak back in the day of McEnroe microshorts, and was always having to tug them about. These days, everything’s gotten so baggy that the difference may hardly matter. Back in the day, I could occasionally get friends who didn’t play themselves to watch, thanks to such inducements as Stefan Edberg about to return serve, but that aspect seems gone ever since Rafael Nadal gave up the pirate pants.
Mewens, I lol’d at that pretty hard.
There is no Lady Godzilla, for the record. And I do feel a little yucky about the fact that my kaiju love only seems to be shared by GP.
@alaisvex, definitely see what you are saying. I agree, Corvid’s not trying to say all women everywhere should go round sexually assuaging angsty dudes and we’d all live more happily ever after. She’s talking about a more specific subset of men, that of course she probably sees a lot of in her line of work.
I guess my thing is with her argument is… the guys who latch onto the manosphere by and large refuse to take even relatively obvious, normal steps to improve their situations. If it’s really about sex per se, there are lots of simple things they can do– things that in fact, many, many men already do! Stuff like… getting into serious relationships with women who are into them, maintaining mixed-gender social networks, not being insufferable a-holes, brushing their teeth without making a production of it, lol
(‘Course, those guys are total betas and who cares if they’re having sex regularly, if it’s not with a 22 year old HB7, at least!)
anyway, with those guys I really do this it’s less about sex per se, and more about power. I think a lot of them would rather give up sex than the power fantasy.
I suppose it’s possible that they’d be more likely to accept a straightup inversion of the power fantasy instead of abandoning it altogether, but that seems like a bit of a stretch to me!
@watermelonsugar
I would really like if someone made a demo of that game with Assless Chaps Man just to illustrate this point.
I read back through the GP thread there, and as much as I want to believe that he’s just a kid being ignorant he did seem to have a hard time taking criticism on board, changing his behaviour, and even understanding why he should change at all. Still not sure he was a true trolly troll, but I feel that his splaining will not be missed.
I think that if you compare the broad range that the corporate media presents as attractive men and the narrow range presented as attractive women the problem is obvious. The male gaze is the corporate media gaze. Or maybe it is the other way round.
@Lightcastle: I didn’t know there was a particular term for it, but my impression is that it’s pretty common among men who spend lots of time at the gym to have a slightly messed-up relationship to food and exercise and their own bodies… Not everyone obv, but it doesn’t seem rare either.
I have a personal trainer who used to compete in bodybuilding all the way up to championship level. Zie still has a pretty relaxed relationship to zir body, food and exercise (obv zie’d diet hard before competitions when zie was still active, but zie’d didn’t obsess about body fat in between, and zie doesn’t obsess about it now once zie’s stopped competing), but zie does tell me stuff occasionally, not about particular clients of course, but about general tendencies among clients (we’re personal friends as well, we were before I began actually training for zir). Lots of people of both genders who are desperately afraid of carbs, and then particularly men who wants to build big muscles but are simultaneously terrified of getting fat, so they don’t eat enough calories (some of them are scared of both carbs and fat, and basically wants to live on protein drinks and vitamin pills). They wonder why their muscles never really grow despite all the weights they lift, and zie will have to patiently explain that you can’t build muscles if you don’t eat properly… Also, zie said once that lots of people treat a personal trainer more or less like a priest, and believe that zie’s supposed to take confessions if they’ve “sinned”. Like “father, I’ve sinned, I ate a piece of cake yesterday, what do I need to do for penance?” (obv no one uses these exact words, but the sentiment is there), and zie’ll be like “well, nothing, since it’s perfectly normal to eat a piece of cake once in a while”.
As I said, I don’t protest that problems with disordered eating and body image is more widespread among women in general, and that’s because women in general are judged more on their appearance, but yeah… doesn’t seem to be a rare thing, exactly, in men either. Weirdwoodtreehugger made a good point about ideals often making us feel bad in the long run, even if we’re attracted to them (to the point where we buy media presenting them).
Sorry, should have been all genders, not both genders, in the post above.
@WatermelonSugar
You’re kaiju loved is shared by many: I am a hardest of the hardcore kaiju fan. I’ve written numerous nonfiction articles about the genre and Godzilla in particular, and would link you to some if not for privacy reasons.
Re: “Lady Godzilla.” Yeah, I wish I were online when GP whipped out that. I would have had to turn on the Godzilla scholar in full force. The basics are that, in Japanese, Godzilla is always referred to with the neuter pronoun. In Son of Godzilla (1967), the implication is that the infant “Godzilla” (Minira, also Romanized as “Minya” and Minilla”) isn’t a descendant of Godzilla or its actual child, but a member of the same species; Godzilla detected its cries (a radio interference seen throughout the early parts of the movie) and came to find it, and then became its defender and de facto parent. The “son” part is merely a term of convenience, as Minira also receives the neuter pronoun. When I write about Godzilla now, I always avoid using the masculine pronoun to describe the creature, and use neuter when I can’t otherwise avoid using a substitute noun, like “the monster,” or “the Big G.”
That’s it for the Godzilla specifying. Thank you, and enjoy the buffet.
Posted because why not: Cassie contemplating the end of a fabric mouse
http://s21.postimg.org/hjfgkdx4n/Cassie_Mouse_med.jpg
@Cassie’s Major Domo–
You. Are. Amazing. I would love to read your articles, but totally understand the privacy issue–this is most certainly not the space to link to anything personal.
If you have any non-personal Godzilla nerd stuff, I am always looking for new reads.
Cassie is gorgeous!
I didn’t have any trouble accepting him as 18. I’ve dealt with too many bull-headed high school kids who won’t take advice, instruction or anything else from me as a tutor. Hard time taking criticism on board? Just like every other kid who argues that algebra is stupid instead of simply doing the corrections. Repeating the behaviour? Just like every other kid who Just Won’t Let It Drop. Understanding the need for change? Just like every other kid who reckons the world would be better if there were no grammar rules at all instead of shutting their dopey mouth, putting their head down and doing the bloody work of learning what they’ve been told (that they’ve been wrong about something for the whole of their short lives).
If he’s a sock, then he’s a mid to late teen person anyway.
gilshalos:
There’s another example, I think of you being in your twenties or thirties! 😀
Whoot, birthday coming up? CAKE! There needs to be cake!
Dvarg: I’m 51.
CASSIE IS SO ADORBS! ::swoons::
Damn, I’m glad I was out with Mr K instead of being here for all that thread. I skimmed over it very briefly last night, that was more than enough. My patience with “I don’t actually comment here but I’m not following this evil blog anymore!” types is nonexistent. Sitting in the park eating a yummy sammich and remembering what we got up to at Home the night before was much more rewarding.
I can’t tell if GP was real or not but why on Earth would you think it a good idea to wander into a feminist leaning comment section and start talking about Anita playing the “victim card”, and how irritating she is.
I honestly have a hard time believing they have spent time in any feminist space without seeing their “men in games are sexualized just as much!” thing torn to shreds a few times over.
Booburry, I think that GP had to be pretty ignorant of feminist opinions to think that that would go over well and to have never considered that women are objectified in ways that men typically aren’t.
I think like the article says some people simply want to say what they think without really considering their audience. My mother isn’t a dude but she tends to do that. She’ll say what she wants to even if I’ve asked her not to bring up a certain subject. Like with GP it can take several talking tos before she gets it on board, but she’s gotten better over the years.