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a voice for men feminism gender policing misogyny MRA PUA

The New Statesman's Margaret Corvid on the ways misogyny restricts male sexuality

Policing male sexuxality: a meme from A Voice for Men's Facebook page.
Policing male sexuxality: a meme from A Voice for Men’s Facebook page.

Check out Margaret Corvid’s fascinating piece in the New Statesman on male sexuality and the appeal of misogynistic movements to sexually frustrated men. As a professional dominatrix who’s also a feminist, she’s acutely aware of the ways conventional masculinity restricts and impoverishes male sexuality.

When I became a professional dominatrix after years in the kink scene, I expected my kinky work to involve lots of spanking, whipping and bondage. And, to my delight, it has. But in the majority of my sessions, I am creating a space for men to explore areas of their sexual lives that society feels are unmanly; they come to me to be penetrated, to be used, to serve, to submit, to worship, to be taken. A client might have any or all of a bewildering array of fetishes, but they mostly come to me to experience something well outside the very narrow confines of what society says that it means to be a man.

Unfortunately, as she notes, Men’s Rightsers and Pickup Artists offer nothing to men who feel confined by these narrow notions of manhood; indeed, their definitions of manhood are both retrograde and restrictive.

One of the greatest tragedies of the men’s rights movement is that, in the end, its lessons serve only to drive men further away from what they yearn for. Pick up artist techniques and aggrieved entitlement are unlikely to help men achieve the goal of intimacy, but feminist values can teach them the skills to communicate with respect.

You’ll notice a few quotes in there from me, from an email interview she did with me as well as from my post Is the Men’s Rights Movement driven by the rage of the rejected? (I also discussed the issue in this post on the weird sexual undercurrents in A Voice for Men’s Facebook “memes.”)

 

 

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cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
9 years ago

Thanks for tag teaming to make me gigglesnort, guys. I needed that. Also, Petral, dude, it’s clear at this point that you have an ego the size of Texas, but not every comment in this thread is addressed to you.

Alex
9 years ago

GroundPest is annoying. Why can’t we have funny trolls like in the olden days? It’s all we ask.

WatermelonSugar
9 years ago

If feminists do not abandon their moralism, men’s rights activists and their growing penumbra of supporters will continue to paint us all with the same brush.

So wait. I am supposed to be more sexually adventurous or it’s my fault MRAtypes treat me like garbage?

When it comes to sex, I am very much of the “with enthusiastic consent, you do you.” Policing otherwise seems very…um, shitty?

alaisvex
alaisvex
9 years ago

GroundPetrel,

The first comment was addressed to Ken L.

thebewilderness
thebewilderness
9 years ago

LISTEN! GroundPestrel! You are not the only person commenting on this thread and you need to take a break. You are overdosing on outrage adrenalin over something said to someone else.
That is the last thing I will be saying to you now or ever.

Alan Robertshaw
9 years ago

Hi Jennifer

I’m new to this arena [that is to say sites like this; having read more it turns out I’ve always been pro-feminist but didn’t realise. Im just thought it was having a realisitc understanding of the what women face and thinking it was wrong, but I digress] so apologies in advance if I say anything out of line.

I only came across the term TERF recently. I thought it was a neutral term to refer to a particular viewpoint in feminism [like how you you could be a liberal market capitalist or a coordinated market capitalist].

I was having a discussion with a friend who is an active feminist [she used a particular qualifier that I can’t remember because I didn’t realise it might be significant]. We got talking about trans people.

This lead me to ask her what would be the position if someone turned up at a lesbian disco and identified as a trans woman lesbian (but had male sexual characteristics). She thought the person shouldn’t be allowed in. We had a bit of a discussion about sex v gender (I learned a lot of new stuff). I was of the opinion that generally people should be accepted as how they identify but acknowledged the possibility that this was just a bloke trying it on.

Her position was that it was better for a trans woman to have hurt feelings than a not trans woman to be put in danger. I could sort of see the logic in that; especially bearing in mind some particular experiences she’d had (albeit at the hands of non trans men).

It seemed the only solution was to effectively put the trans woman to proof that she actually was.

It was an interesting debate (I like moral quandaries) but obviously there’s a world of difference between abstract discussion and real life.

I never thought I’d get involved with feminist websites (my previous contribution to women’s rights was to try not to be a total arse with women) but this is getting fascinating. Your posts have been really interesting. Cheers.

NickNameNick
NickNameNick
9 years ago

I know this is really late in the conversation to bring it back up, but I kind of need some feedback:

Having only a passing familiarity with Dworkin – I don’t have a substantive opinion about her one way or the other. However, admittedly, I’ve almost come to hate the name due to all the online debates I’ve observed or gotten into.

Mostly because MRAs or MRA-sympathizers use it as some rhetorical “gotcha!” against feminists and allies, which gets more aggravating each time. Moreso when it becomes obvious their dislike comes from the fact they had a bad experience – all due to an ardently ideological student on or from a university campus. The fact people who live and work on campuses are often dealing in specialized fields too esoteric for most should be a sign they are not representative of the mainstream.

I’ve gotten into ridiculous situations with other students, which were annoying, but I’d generally just try and avoid it than obsess over it – except the people who keep bringing up Dworkinites do. They don’t even seem capable of understanding that there are, in fact, other feminist thinkers who might be more influential. These same people, by the way, would fault you for generalizing any other group – but apparently doing so with feminism to excuse sexism and misogyny is fine and dandy for…reasons.

I’m not sure how to handle this anymore than by simply stating that, no, I’m not a feminist because of Dworkin. I suppose having the full texts of things she’s quoted for often (like the whole “sex is rape” thing) would help, especially since I could point out they’re chumps for falling for quote-mining instead of doing research themselves.

weirwoodtreehugger
9 years ago

Ken,
How the fuck do you know whether or not Cassandra or any here has done any activism?

I for one have done political activism before. One of the first rules is not to waste your time on the people who oppose you. You won’t change their minds. You organize the supporters and educate the fence sitters.

Unless you know any of us personally, you can quit saying we’re just keyboard warriors and quit pretending you’re the expert on how to do feminism. You’re not.

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

GroundPetrel: the world and this blog doesn’t revolve around you. Get over yourself.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
9 years ago

This lady has taken things too far! I am willing to give her my permission to have an opinion up till a certain point, and she has exceeded that, which is an outrage. Who does she think she is?

(Insert more ragefroth here)

thebewilderness
thebewilderness
9 years ago

Ken has shown us what he is made of now as well. Begone foul dwimmerlaik!

ParadoxicalIntention
9 years ago

GroundPetrel

Seriously, I imply that one person isn’t a perfect shining pillar of light–even though I recognize and acknowledge that she’s had some truly epic shitty behavior aimed at her, and I make it clear that I am DISGUSTED by said behavior–and everyone treats me like I just walked in from RSHD’s little cuddlepile of hate or something.

By “implying that one person isn’t a perfect shining pillar of light”, you mean “drag this person through the mud, even though I acknowledge that she’s gone through some shit”.

We weren’t upset that you don’t agree with Anita. We don’t give a shit. What we got snippy with you over was the notion that Anita talking about her experiences somehow translates to “trying to play the victim card” to you.

Because talking about how you has been personally victimized as an example of the thing you’re talking about isn’t “playing the victim card”, it’s making a damn point.

On top of that, both Kirby and I pointed out to you that she never mentions this stuff when talking about sexism in games, or on her Tropes vs. Women videos, only when she’s talking about misogyny in gaming as a whole.

In my experience of video games, nothing has held up to Anita Sarkeesian’s ideas of some big sexist undercurrent to the genre. OK, there are skimpy outfits in fantasy MMOs…but the sum total of male options in those games are almost always “Beef Chesty” or “Wolf with a bit of dude”. OK, you sometimes have to rescue female characters…but you have to rescue dudes, too! And it’s always portrayed the same damn way whether the character to be rescued is male or not!

Do yourself a favor, and Google “false equivalence”. Men occasionally needing to be rescued =/= women constantly needing to be rescued and rewarding their savior with sexual favors, marriage or being seen as the prize.

And while you’re at it, here are some blogs showcasing female sexualization when it comes to costumes in gaming and comics:

http://repair-her-armor.tumblr.com/
http://eschergirls.tumblr.com/

Also your experiences in gaming =/= everyone’s experiences in gaming. You don’t get to say “well, I have this experience, so all of yours are wrong!”

And I’m not suggesting that she’s equal to the assholes. I just say that I think she’s arrogant and her opinions are sometimes nonsensical.

As I said earlier, no one cares, Louise.

We don’t care that you don’t like Anita’s opinions, nor do we care that you think she’s arrogant.

But the assholes who lurk in video game cesspools aren’t the same as the devs who make video games. The company that makes my MMO? The lead story writer and community manager are female. The lead story writer’s been with the company since the start, and is probably the third-most-loved dev after the chief artist and the former community manager.

*implying that women can’t be misogynistic and that they don’t work with other people who can be as well*

Being a woman =/= not misogynistic. Women are misogynistic to other women all the damn time.

I just don’t think that video games are inherently sexist or that they are regularly made with sexism inherent in them. And when Anita Sarkeesian pulls out stuff like her complaints about Princess Peach, I find it profoundly arrogant and misguided.

I’m glad you don’t think so, but plenty of other people don’t share that same sentiment, and it wouldn’t kill you to listen to them and take into consideration what they have to say without writing them off as “arrogant and misguided” because you think your oppressed friends gave you a fucking get-out-of-criticism pass. Which isn’t a thing, by the way.

Also, again, intention isn’t magical. Just because you don’t intend to be sexist, doesn’t mean you aren’t currently being sexist.

I agree that her Princess Peach segment on damsels in distress wasn’t exactly on point, but it doesn’t hurt to say that there’s still nuggets of knowledge in there that we can’t benefit from.

And “arrogant and misguided”? Why do you keep throwing around the word “arrogant” when you’re the one trying to say that my experiences with games don’t matter because you don’t see sexism in the games you play?

In my experience, the only one here being “arrogant and misguided” is you.

I’m simply saying that I think she’s wrong and that people unjustly beatify her opinions, and I don’t like that.

There’s a reason people “beatify” (nope, you’re not over-exaggerating, not a bit) what Anita is saying: She’s calling out people that some people are too afraid to call out. She’s a lightning rod for the hatred that started #GamerGate, and she’s rallying against it, so we’re all standing behind her.

I don’t agree with everything she has to say. But I do think it’s wonderful that she’s bringing it to light and letting people talk about it.

It’s a damn start, and more people could stand to at least hear her out without demonizing her with their #GG tinted glasses.

weirwoodtreehugger
9 years ago

Suddenly my headache is coming back. I can’t imagine why.

contrapangloss
9 years ago

Ken, can you knock it off?

Honestly, as someone who does things in the real world, and generally tries to be nice and explain things online…

I don’t begrudge those in the oppressed groups who don’t.

I’m absolutely and totally fine with helping and supporting them.

I don’t think they’re cowards, because they have their own stuff to deal with.

And, this place is a lot of folks’ outlet for frustrations so they can be helpful elsewhere.

Not everywhere has to be an educational outlet. Not everyone has to keep the strike going for it to be effective. Yes, I’ll agree that no to little progress will be made if no one in the oppressed groups help, but not everyone has to.

Those that do are great folks, many of whom are way braver than I am. But I refuse to demand someone put their safety and health on the line.

Please, chill.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
9 years ago

Don’t be silly, Ken doesn’t need to do any activism himself. His job is too lecture all the little ladies about how they’re doing feminism wrong, which means they do nothing, because…wait does this make no sense at all or is that just the painkillers?

You’re dumb, Ken, and also kind of a jerk. Try to be a better person, yeah?

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
9 years ago

Sarkeesian is arrogant because she doesn’t think she need’s Petral’s permission to talk about things, nor does she check in with him to see if she’s gone to far. Curse her!

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
9 years ago

Wow, I really can’t type at all right now, can I? And yet I still make more sense than Ken. Making less sense than Ken is hard, presumably you have to train for it.

ParadoxicalIntention
9 years ago

Ken L.

Yeah, your right but they but for everyone of them there is two of you. Who won’t do more then be a asshole on the internet. Your attitude of “It’s not the oppressed job” is just like a right to work person, you want all the benefits of the union but won’t stand on the picket line, You pious coward.

Refusing to waste time and energy on asshats who refuse to listen is NOT THE SAME as standing and fighting for our beliefs, you perfectly rectangular shitbasket.

Trying to teach people who refuse to learn is A WASTE OF ENERGY AND TIME THAT COULD BE SPENT ON PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY WANT TO LEARN.

You and people who think like you aren’t “allies” to our cause. You’re the exact fucking opposite. You’re demanding our time and energy to “educate” you because you’re too fucking lazy to do it yourselves.

Stop demanding that every single oppressed person bow to your whims and hold your fucking hand, you arrogant elephant turd. No one here has to “educate you” about shit.

weirwoodtreehugger
9 years ago

I think ground petrol needs more than a short break to cool off. I think he needs to do some feminism 101 research and lurk here for awhile before commenting again.

This is not an educational site. We come here to mock misogyny and talk about other things with people who we like and already get it. I come here because it’s just about the only place online that doesn’t make me want to head desk forever. Cluelessness will never go over well here.

ParadoxicalIntention
9 years ago

I second GroundPetrol needing a time-out until he does more research.

Can we put him on moderation please?

weirwoodtreehugger
9 years ago

Paradox,
I don’t know what a perfectly rectangular shitbasket is. But I do know that cracked me right up. So thanks. I needed that!

thebewilderness
thebewilderness
9 years ago

Also too and besides, Ken, saying that it is not my job to educate the d00dz who view me as sub human is not remotely similar to peeps who refuses to pay union dues or right to work for less laws. Criminy!
It is time for the banhammer when the d00ds start the name calling, I think.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
9 years ago

@cassandrakitty:

I’m seriously wondering over here where his idea that she’s “arrogent” comes from, anyway. That she speaks matter-of-factly about her subject? That she doesn’t have more of a dialoguey video style?

I’m sensing there may be some unpacking that ground petrel needs to do… I don’t get arrogence at all from her.

ParadoxicalIntention
9 years ago

WWTH

Paradox,
I don’t know what a perfectly rectangular shitbasket is. But I do know that cracked me right up. So thanks. I needed that!

I found this via a formula for a perfect insult on tumblr.

[Adjective] [Adverb] [Swear word] [Noun].

I think that’s how it went.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
9 years ago

I’d also be curious to know what he’d suggest people do when they encounter sexist jerks and don’t have a high-level PVP friend to squash-em… Women shouldn’t need to be high level to earn not being harassed.

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