There’s a post on the AgainstMensRights subreddit today highlighting a comment from a Men’s Rights Redditor that offers some, well, interesting theories about why feminists are “obsessed” with rape and abortion, even though he thinks they are very ugly.
Actually, in his mind, it’s because they are very ugly, and secretly wish someone would be attracted enough to them to rape them.
I’m sure there are MRAs out there who would like to dismiss his posting as the ravings of a random Redditor. Sadly, it’s not. Despite the terribleness of his “explanation,” or perhaps because of it, it seems to be a common one amongst Manosphereians and Men’s Rightsers.
Indeed, in one notorious post a couple of years ago, A Voice for Men founder and all-around garbage human Paul Elam — probably the most important person in the Men’s Rights movement today — offered a much cruder version of this argument. [TRIGGER WARNING for some primo rape apologism. I have bolded the worst bits, and archived the post here in case Elam decides to take it down, as he has been doing with some of his more repellant posts].
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Isn’t it more than just a little fascinating that underneath all this hoopla about rape is a whole lot of women who, when thinking about some guy pinning them down in a kitchen and forcing a hand up their blouse, generally tend to do so with their own hand or a vibrator between their legs? …
And isn’t it also interesting that the most rape obsessive morons on the planet also happen to be some of the ugliest morons on the planet?
Consider this. If rape awareness was a religion, Andrea Dworkin was The Fucking Pope. The 300+ lb. basilisk of man-hate had a face big enough and pockmarked enough to be used to fake a lunar landing. Her body was roughly the size and shape of a small sperm whale.
And she thought of little else in her life other than rape. The subject drove almost everything she said and did.
She even claimed to have been drugged and raped in 1999 in Paris, an accusation that was never proven and which came under a great deal of scrutiny, apparently for damned good reason.
C’mon people, Dworkin’s problem wasn’t that she was raped. Her problem, and I mean all along, was that she wasn’t.
Oh, it gets worse:
Like a corrupt televangelist who only shuts up about sexual purity and morality long enough to secure the services of a five dollar hooker, Dworkin was the poster child for “The lady doth protest too much, methinks.”
Or, in other words, she was obsessed with rape, quite possibly even creating the illusion it happened to her, precisely because her worth on the sexual market was measured in pesos.
Dworkin wanted to be raped, which in her mind meant being sexually desired, but didn’t have the goods to make that happen so she made a career of hating both the source of her rejection, men, and the source of her competition, attractive women.
In the end, the most narcissistic of all Men’s Rightsers concludes that rape is all about female narcissism:
The concept of rape has a lot of utility for women. One, it feeds their narcissistic need to feel irresistible. Two, if feeds their narcissistic need to feel irresistible. That level of irresistibility is the pinnacle of a woman’s sexual viability and worth. And for a whole lot of women, sexual worth is the only self-worth they know.
A Voice for Men’s domestic violence mascot Erin Pizzey seconded Elam’s argument during an appearance of hers last year on Reddit.
If you’re referring to Paul’s statement that many or most women fantasize about being taken, I’m sorry but that’s the truth. That doesn’t mean they want to be raped, but it’s a fantasy I think almost all women have. And I think he went on to say that feminists like Andrea Dworkin who were and are so obsessed with rape are really projecting their own unconscious sexual frustration because men don’t give them enough attention. Andrea was a very sad lonely woman like this
This is an “insight” that many other manosphereians keep reinventing and announcing to the world. In a 2013 post, for example, the “Red Pill” blogger and sometime Return of Kings contributor who calls himself TheMaskAndRose offered a very similar take on the subject.
Feminists are ugly women. They are fat, old, masculine, aggressive, hateful, sociopathic, unattractive, or any combination of those things. Attractive women tend not to be Feminists, so I encourage you to think about why that’s the case. So keeping in mind that they’re not the type of women who normal men desire or pay any attention to, here’s my theory:
Rape culture is the ugly woman’s rape fantasy. …
I think the true heart of a rape fantasy is narcissism.
I think it’s about the idea of saying NO to a man, over and over, but he throws caution to the wind and gives into the animal instinct to just overtake you–because you’re so attractive, so beautiful, so alluring, so irresistible that he just can’t help himself.
It’s about being wanted, more than anything else. Wanted so badly that a man would risk throwing his whole life away just for the chance to put his penis in you.
So, since Feminists and unattractive women generally don’t have men paying any attention to them at all–at least not the sexual kind of attention they crave but won’t admit to … they instead cast themselves in the role of heroine in a cultural narrative whereby men think they’re just so fucking deliciously hot that they can’t wait for the chance to rape them.
They project that insanity onto the world around them, and voila–“rape culture.” A world full of scary men so overtaken with lust and desire for these fat, ugly, manly cow-beasts that you never know when one of them is going to risk his career, family, money, and life outside of prison just to have sex with you.
There is, of course, a much simpler explanation for why feminists tend to be “obsessed” with rape: because it happens all the fucking time.
@Bina,
… Oh, I hope other studies don’t show numbers that high. I can live with 1 in 10. 1 in 3 makes me not want to leave my apartment again.
Unfortunately, I don’t have much trouble believing the 1 in 3 number.
In defence of the women who enjoy Twilight and 50 Shades of Grey (I have not read either series because they sound just awful, but I did get dragged to one of the Twilight movies) I don’t think people reading those books necessarily means they want to live them. Some people read trashy novels because they like the drama. You might like war movies, but that doesn’t mean you want to be shot at in real life.
All this “women secretly like rape” nonsense is just wishful thinking by the abuser’s lobby.
MRAs really understand absolutely nothing about the motivations of rapists, or the coping strategies of rape victims, or what feminists are talking about when they say “rape culture, or women’s sexualities, or men’s sexualities, or anything.
I always wondered about that too, magnesium. Do peeps who like war storys want to be in a war? I think not.
Criminy! Stories! I can too spell so there.
Alex, Bina,
I have to admit I found that Jezebel report mildly encouraging. Urk. When you look at the results of that admittedly too-small-sample-size survey and compare it with the details of the larger 1986 survey, you see that the number of young men willing to force sex without calling it rape has more or less halved even though the overt rapist number hasn’t really shifted.
That signifies to me a big decline in rape culture and a reasonable if not ideal improvement in young men’s attitudes. (Though I’m really old so I might just be seeing this stuff through a 1968-1978 lens.)
I loved vampire novels when I was a kid. Pretty sure I don’t want anyone to drink my blood, since I kind of need it and all.
magnesium
This is true. I know of several fans that I’ve spoken to of Twilight who understood that the books had a lot of really Not Good things in there, but they still enjoyed it despite that, as is their right.
I haven’t heard from anyone on the 50SoG side, but I imagine there’s people like that on their side as well. For the most part, I imagine that there’s similar types of fan in the 50SoG fandom as there was in the Twilight fandom from what I can tell.
Though, I also imagine there are now a new group in the 50SoG fandom of “stop kink-shaming me!” people, and that makes me shudder with anger and fear.
@Everyone who offered hugs:
http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q484/drcranquis/Tumblr%20Gifs/happy_crying_colbert.gif
Bless your faces. You’re all lovely people. Hugs, chocolate and scented candles for all of you.
ParadoxicalIntention:
[quote]Though, I also imagine there are now a new group in the 50SoG fandom of “stop kink-shaming me!” people, and that makes me shudder with anger and fear.[quote]
Could you unpack that little. I Know it’s O.T. but I interested in what your saying.
Damn it I don’t know what I’m doing how do you quote?
Came back for the rainbow Gif,
and to offer more hugs to any who need them. Aaand, the OP is still a huge NOPE, so more Noping away again.
http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/728/407/a87.gif
http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/728/679/275.gif
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/masonry/000/753/127/983.jpg
http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/masonry/000/868/429/702.jpg
Love you all, save trolls and the vile miscreants of the OP with ooky ideas.
Doesn’t Elam claim that his organization supports the male rape victims? How could he possibly square HHG comments here with that?
*his* comments. Darn autocorrect.
Ken L: It’s either pointy brackets (“Less Than” & “Greater Than”) or the fact you left out the “/” in your close tag.
@Ken L
Quotes are done like so:
<blockquote> text to be quoted </blockquote>
Also, hugs to anyone who wants/needs them.
Also sending hugs to you, paradoxicalintention. You’re an amazing person.
Some thoughts:
1. For the billion billion kojillionth time, rape is not about sex. It’s about power, control, revenge, degradation, and violation.
2. MRAs think 99.9999999999% of women are hideous invisible unfuckable hamwhales, feminist or not. (Gorgeous blonde model with stunning cheekbones? Too bad about your bun…). That is a statistical impossibility. Ergo, their opinions on attractiveness are distorted and don’t matter.
3. The vast majority of feminists have real and satisfying sex lives, in marked contrast to MGTOW & co.
4. Being against something does not mean you secretly wish that thing to happen to you. That’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard. I’m against drunk driving, child abuse, and animal neglect, because they suck. There’s no personal angle, no deep-seated secret wish-fulfillment thing going on there. Bad things need to stop and that’s all there is to it. It’s called having a moral compass.
Ken L
Essentially, “Kink shaming” is a very, very thin excuse to cover for a lot of abusive behaviors within and without the BDSM community. Most of the time, this excuse comes from people who don’t know a lot about BDSM, or have been doing it wrong for years, and since it’s the only thing they know, they stick to it.
Women are reading this who, like the author who penned it, have no idea what actual BDSM is like. They’re seeing this, and thinking to themselves “Yes, that’s what that is! I want that!” without actually knowing what it is they’re asking for. They see Grey’s shitty behaviors painted in a positive light, and they think that’s good and sexy.
So, when people who have practiced BDSM in reality (like myself) come up to them and tell them that their precious “kink” is nothing more than abusive behaviors wrapped up in a thin BDSM-looking wrapper, they claim that we’re just “kink shaming” them and have no idea what we’re talking about. It’s a way to say “You’re just trying to make me feel bad!” and opt out of any sort of criticism of your behaviors.
Or, they try to make excuses for the “love interest’s” shitty behaviors. For Christian Grey, I find that something I call the “Chris Brown Effect” comes into play. Some people will forgive abuse because one or more things are true:
1. “But he’s hot!”
2. “He’s only doing it because he loves her so much!”
3. “But he bought her a car!” (Which Grey actually did.)
So, because he’s attractive to them, because they’ve been told he loves her, and because he buys her nice things, they’re willing to forgive any wrong doing that the “love interest” might have done, regardless of what it is.
“He’s hot and rich! I’d let him hit me!” – Essentially.
(I’d just like to throw in here that Christian Grey is basic as hell when it comes to his “Red Room of Pain”. Just a few spanking implements and a bed he can tie people down to. Amusingly beginner, really.)
Eh, this got a little ranty, and I’m not sure if everything’s 100% alright in there, but if people would like to add to it, feel free.
No, rant all you want. I was interested thank you for being so honest and clear. I understand what you mean now.
@Xanith
You really could have stopped there and been right.
To be clear my first comment on this thread did not mean to suggest MRAs actually want to be raped. That’s a contradiction in terms to begin with. But given comments I’ve seen from their ilk like rape is akin to being force fed chocolate cake, they don’t seem to understand or believe in the concept of truly unwanted sex. To even think ‘wanting to be raped’ is a thing that is possible requires fundamentally misunderstanding what rape even *IS*, why rapists do it, and why it’s wrong.
*fires up the projection reel*
“Isn’t it more than just a little fascinating that underneath all this hoopla about rape is a whole lot of [MRAs] who, when thinking about … pinning them down in a kitchen and forcing a hand up their blouse, generally tend to do so with their own hand … between their legs?”
“And isn’t it also interesting that the most rape [apologetic] morons on the planet also happen to be some of the ugliest [souls] on the planet?”
“Like a corrupt televangelist who only shuts up about sexual purity and morality long enough to secure the services of a five dollar hooker, [Elam] was the poster child for “The [MRA] doth protest too much, methinks.””
“The concept of [not being] rape has a lot of utility for [MRAs]. One, it feeds their narcissistic need to feel irresistible. Two, [pointless duplicate of former sentence here]. That level of irresistibility is the pinnacle of a [MRA’s] sexual viability and worth. And for a whole lot of [MRAs], sexual worth is the only self-worth they know.”
“MRAs are ugly [souls]. They are … aggressive, hateful, sociopathic … or any combination of those things. [Decent human beings] tend not to be [MRAs], so I encourage you to think about why that’s the case. So keeping in mind that they’re not the type of [people] who normal [people] … pay any attention to, here’s my theory:”
Ugh… I can’t do this for the rest. Literally everything they’re saying applies directly back to them, almost word for word. It’s just a staggering lack of self-awareness.
Yeah, men’s rights protesters are mentioned in this CBC article , and that Attila guy who’s the AVforM Director of Activism or whatever is quoted. Yuck.
Also, hugs all round to everyone who wants them.
The thing that stands out for me as that is ISN’T EVEN POSSIBLE to want to be raped. By its definition it is an act that is forced. It is not rough sex, or kinky sex, or role play, or fantasy – it is an assault. If a woman has a rape fantasy (I am guessing as I have never had one) presumably there are a bunch of things in there that make it an enjoyable experience, or else why do it?! Therefore taking it quite far from what actual rape is.
I was ‘obsessed’ with rape ages 16-18. That is I thought about it a lot and was fearful about it because I worked in the evenings, and was a conventionally attractive woman who got A LOT of unwanted attention when trying to get home. It really did preoccupy me for a long time, gradually my fear abated and then I rarely thought about it. The ONLY feeling I associate with thinking about rape is fear – it was 30 years ago, but I can still call up that feeling of fear in seconds.
Pizzey is such a traitor to women – where the hell does she get the idea that ALL women fantasise about forced sex? Talking with her middle class friends from a particular generation?
It makes no sense to claim that some people want to be raped. It goes against everything about evolutionary development of life on this planet. Avoidance of harm and preservation of life is basic instinct of all living creatures. Considering that evo-pysch is so popular among these bozos you would think they would have put that together.
Of course I am excluding BDSM and such things because ultimately people who engage in that are not wishing to be “actually” harmed.
Also there may be some people out there who are fat, “ugly” and whatever else, who are so lonely and have so little self esteem that they would put up with an abusive and destructive relationship. But desiring rape??!! No fat or homely person is unaware of how they compare to the “standard” set by society. It’s not like media and such are shy about telling us what they think we should all aspire to look like. How is being raped going to magically make someone think that they are desirable? It’s like they think that rape is some sort of compliment. How the ever-loving fuck do these people exist?
Thanks to the people for all the nope gifs. I needed those because otherwise I think my face would be permanently frozen in a mask of horror and disgust.
Hugs to you Paradoxicalintention, stories like yours make me need to hug my kid, while simultaneously making me wish I could somehow protect all the other little kids in the world. If only I had a Death Note. 🙁