There’s a post on the AgainstMensRights subreddit today highlighting a comment from a Men’s Rights Redditor that offers some, well, interesting theories about why feminists are “obsessed” with rape and abortion, even though he thinks they are very ugly.
Actually, in his mind, it’s because they are very ugly, and secretly wish someone would be attracted enough to them to rape them.
I’m sure there are MRAs out there who would like to dismiss his posting as the ravings of a random Redditor. Sadly, it’s not. Despite the terribleness of his “explanation,” or perhaps because of it, it seems to be a common one amongst Manosphereians and Men’s Rightsers.
Indeed, in one notorious post a couple of years ago, A Voice for Men founder and all-around garbage human Paul Elam — probably the most important person in the Men’s Rights movement today — offered a much cruder version of this argument. [TRIGGER WARNING for some primo rape apologism. I have bolded the worst bits, and archived the post here in case Elam decides to take it down, as he has been doing with some of his more repellant posts].
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Isn’t it more than just a little fascinating that underneath all this hoopla about rape is a whole lot of women who, when thinking about some guy pinning them down in a kitchen and forcing a hand up their blouse, generally tend to do so with their own hand or a vibrator between their legs? …
And isn’t it also interesting that the most rape obsessive morons on the planet also happen to be some of the ugliest morons on the planet?
Consider this. If rape awareness was a religion, Andrea Dworkin was The Fucking Pope. The 300+ lb. basilisk of man-hate had a face big enough and pockmarked enough to be used to fake a lunar landing. Her body was roughly the size and shape of a small sperm whale.
And she thought of little else in her life other than rape. The subject drove almost everything she said and did.
She even claimed to have been drugged and raped in 1999 in Paris, an accusation that was never proven and which came under a great deal of scrutiny, apparently for damned good reason.
C’mon people, Dworkin’s problem wasn’t that she was raped. Her problem, and I mean all along, was that she wasn’t.
Oh, it gets worse:
Like a corrupt televangelist who only shuts up about sexual purity and morality long enough to secure the services of a five dollar hooker, Dworkin was the poster child for “The lady doth protest too much, methinks.”
Or, in other words, she was obsessed with rape, quite possibly even creating the illusion it happened to her, precisely because her worth on the sexual market was measured in pesos.
Dworkin wanted to be raped, which in her mind meant being sexually desired, but didn’t have the goods to make that happen so she made a career of hating both the source of her rejection, men, and the source of her competition, attractive women.
In the end, the most narcissistic of all Men’s Rightsers concludes that rape is all about female narcissism:
The concept of rape has a lot of utility for women. One, it feeds their narcissistic need to feel irresistible. Two, if feeds their narcissistic need to feel irresistible. That level of irresistibility is the pinnacle of a woman’s sexual viability and worth. And for a whole lot of women, sexual worth is the only self-worth they know.
A Voice for Men’s domestic violence mascot Erin Pizzey seconded Elam’s argument during an appearance of hers last year on Reddit.
If you’re referring to Paul’s statement that many or most women fantasize about being taken, I’m sorry but that’s the truth. That doesn’t mean they want to be raped, but it’s a fantasy I think almost all women have. And I think he went on to say that feminists like Andrea Dworkin who were and are so obsessed with rape are really projecting their own unconscious sexual frustration because men don’t give them enough attention. Andrea was a very sad lonely woman like this
This is an “insight” that many other manosphereians keep reinventing and announcing to the world. In a 2013 post, for example, the “Red Pill” blogger and sometime Return of Kings contributor who calls himself TheMaskAndRose offered a very similar take on the subject.
Feminists are ugly women. They are fat, old, masculine, aggressive, hateful, sociopathic, unattractive, or any combination of those things. Attractive women tend not to be Feminists, so I encourage you to think about why that’s the case. So keeping in mind that they’re not the type of women who normal men desire or pay any attention to, here’s my theory:
Rape culture is the ugly woman’s rape fantasy. …
I think the true heart of a rape fantasy is narcissism.
I think it’s about the idea of saying NO to a man, over and over, but he throws caution to the wind and gives into the animal instinct to just overtake you–because you’re so attractive, so beautiful, so alluring, so irresistible that he just can’t help himself.
It’s about being wanted, more than anything else. Wanted so badly that a man would risk throwing his whole life away just for the chance to put his penis in you.
So, since Feminists and unattractive women generally don’t have men paying any attention to them at all–at least not the sexual kind of attention they crave but won’t admit to … they instead cast themselves in the role of heroine in a cultural narrative whereby men think they’re just so fucking deliciously hot that they can’t wait for the chance to rape them.
They project that insanity onto the world around them, and voila–“rape culture.” A world full of scary men so overtaken with lust and desire for these fat, ugly, manly cow-beasts that you never know when one of them is going to risk his career, family, money, and life outside of prison just to have sex with you.
There is, of course, a much simpler explanation for why feminists tend to be “obsessed” with rape: because it happens all the fucking time.
You know what?
I’m really fucking tired of the word “victim” being sneered at people like it’s some kind of insult. I’m really fucking tired of the negative connotation that these assholes – and those who think like them – have peddled.
Being a victim does NOT mean that you are a lesser person. It does NOT mean “whiny attention-wanting bitch”, it means someone who has been hurt and needs help.
This is the kind of shit that prevents rape victims from speaking up and getting help. The idea that “victim” is a dirty, dirty word, and something you should never want to be, even if (ESPECIALLY if) you have been made into one.
I’m also tired of Elam and his cabal trying to insinuate that feminism wants women to have “victim complexes” because it encourages women to speak out about being victimized so they can get help and support.
No. Fuck you Elam. YOU want me to have a “victim complex”. YOU want me to be victimized constantly to make you and your rabble feel big and powerful. YOU want to make me to be a victim, and the one to blame for it. YOU want me to stew in it for the rest of my life and feel tiny and helpless while you and yours dance around me, cackling because you’re not happy unless women are under the heel of your boot.
Feminism wants me to heal. Feminism wants to help. Feminism helped me accept what happened to me. Feminism has helped me far more than you ever would have wanted, and fuck you, your FeMRA shields, and your blog for trying to take that away from me, and other women like me.
*hops off soapbox*
@Paradoxicalintention, hugs anyway however you like them. What woman among us hasn’t been there or close to it? God damn this monstrousness.
@vyechera:
Thank you. I just need to go take some deep breaths and play Minecraft or something. I don’t have the energy for this today. I didn’t want to wake up only to deal with this.
To be fair, I most likely shouldn’t have read the article. But, My morbid curiosity knows no bounds, so I did it anyway.
Also so I could offer hugs and polite, respectful nods to people who would like them.
http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140304031102/glee/images/1/1f/Xtina_hug_me.gif
Same here, bodycrimes. Except I’m not shocked about my lack of reaction. It’s more of the same, more of what these rapist wannabes so obviously think.
Jenny – if you want to post pics, just paste the URL in your comment. Most will embed, some will just post the link, but either way it should work.
thebewilderness, I’m not getting warnings, but I’m always logged in here.
So after my initial reaction, which was THROATPUNCH, I was reminded of that passage in the SCUM Manifesto* where Solanis describes men as projecting all their inherent negative traits onto women. Think about it. MRAs spend so, so much of their time hating women/vaginas with all their might, while simultaneously desperately seeking to possess them. To them, “feminists hate rape – clearly they really want it, just like I really want the one thing I also hate more than anything else” is a perfectly logical deduction.
(*I can never decide whether SCUM is intended to be serious, or whether it’s pure satire, especially of Freud’s theory of penis envy. I don’t endorse it, jsek.)
This isn’t much different from what the Christian Right has been known to say about rape and rape victims. For example, one writer from the American Thinker said that Lena Dunham 1) was never raped and 2) “unconsciously envies the experience of being raped.” I wonder if people like this ever hear themselves speak.
Also, IME the people who sneer “Victim complex/professional victim” are the first ones to howl ever-so-loudly whenever anyone calls them on their crap or even says anything slightly mean about them, like, say, “get a life”.
I told it to keep me logged in to WP but it won’t do it so I reenter my info each time. So maybe it is an issue with WP
And the irony is that practically every feminist in the world, if asked, will assure you that they don’t believe men rape simply because they are so overwhelmed by the sexiness of their target. That’s the belief of the MRAs.
In fact, MRAs have formed an actual hierarchy of attractiveness by declaring some men alphas and bad boys and other men betas, gammas, deltas, and so on. MRAs constantly whine about how their piss-poor attempts at flirtation would be successful if only they were more attractive.
And then they practically fall over themselves denouncing the totally-real-not-even-remotely-made-up scourge of sperm-jacking, where a woman that actually does miraculously have sex with them steals their sperm, without their consent and outside of their control, in a bizarre extortion exercise.
Projection, projection, blah blah blah. This is some horrid nonsense built on a mountain of bullshit constructed by MRAs flinging their poop around in a closed room.
@Paradoxical
All the hugs in the world for when you get back.
@kirbywarp – do they whine about sperm-jacking in between bragging about “raw dogging” and “evil feminists getting abortions for fun”? I think they do!
“It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society” – Jiddu Krishnamurti
If those guys can’t understand why some are outraged that women are raped all the fucking time, maybe they should start asking themselves why they themselves are not outraged. Of course that would require them to see women as people and therefore consider horrible things being done to women as a serious problem.
@Tyra Lith:
You expect too much. They do ask themselves why they aren’t outraged, and their answer is because all rape claims are false. They then get outraged.
@ ParadoxicalIntention – internet hugs, if you want them.
@ MRA’s – PFO! Sorry, too angry to think of anything witty to say.
Speaking of AVFM and rape, I checked out the protest against Bill Cosby’s show tonight. There seemed to be a wee counter-protest across the street: I saw one dude in a Voice For Men shirt and what appeared to be another man with a pro-Cosby sign.
(I would have joined the protest but me and crowds/police/news cameras don’t get along. Anxiety fist-bump!)
@ParadoxicalIntention:
Seconded! I used to read trashy romance books when I was younger, and I am horrified in retrospect at how often the heroine is
rapedravished by the hero at first. It’s awful how women are conditioned to be passive and wait for the man to initiate sexual activity and resist at first (so they’re not a slut) so they can be “seduced”. Hopefully that narrative is becoming less prevalent now.Really, guys, it’s just not polite to post your sexual fantasies in public. Can’t you go masturbate to the idea of raping feminists in private?
Also, blech.
Ah the ever delightful feminist are ugly and all women fantasize about being raped trope all in one post. Yeah, like rape has anything to do with the attractiveness of the victim. I can’t say I’m surprised either, bodycrimes. Sigh.
Thebewilderness, I saw someone on another thread say they got a similar warning earlier today. I cannot recall if it was the Roosh V thread or the hair buns and glasses oppress men tread.
Paradoxicalintention, hugs if you want them. I hope the whole lot of them step on a bunch of Legos.
Ugh, this kind of shit comes from the same vein as the assholes who say “Catcalling is a compliment, women love getting catcalled! All those women who say that they hate it and find it demeaning or threatening are filthy liars and should be grateful they even get any attention in the first place the ugly [insert slur of choice here]”
Obviously being catcalled isn’t the same thing as rape, but there’s scads of assholes claiming that things women say are really not okay are actually exactly what they want.
I suspect it is a matter of “If I were to accept the concepts women are saying, it would challenge my everyday behavior and the behavior of my comrades, and I’m not comfortable with change, therefore the premise is false and women need to shut up and stop acting like autonomous human beings instead of empty vessels on which I can prove my worth and maniless.”
Occam’s Razor would suggest that if the majority of women are saying they don’t like something, it’s because women as a whole don’t like that thing. But that’s no fun for misogynists to wank to, so we get this crap instead.
And in other rapey news, we have this. I think I need a table-flipping conveyor belt of my own.
Am now deploying Stealth Kitten, for ParadoxicalIntention and everyone else here who needs a dose of all’s-right-with-the-world:
Bonus: The little sweetie is a tortie!
Isn’t it interesting how when being cut off while driving, most men fantasize about killing that person? I bet that really means that all men secretly like murdering others for the slightest wrongdoing to them, even if it was possibly accidental.
Paradoxicalintention,
QFT Also, hugs if you want them.
Really, I get why people use “survivor”, but to me, that doesn’t include everyone. Not every victim survives their ordeal, and some, even if they live, carry what happened to them to the grave. If something terrible happens to you, then you’re a victim. Doesn’t mean you stay one, but there should be no shame in being a victim when you’re being or have just been victimized!
@Paradoxicalintention all the hugs in all the worlds in all the universes.
ParadoxicalIntention: I am a hugger! Would you like hugs? I can give you hugs! I also have cat pictures and cat videos, and some tortilla chips and salsa. You know. Whatever you’d like.
OT:
You know? I’m conventionally attractive. Like – long hair, big eyes, thin, white, all that jazz. I see people talk about having a natural bitch face and I am jealous, because when I am irritated, I look approximately as intimidating as a frightened deer. No one takes me seriously.
I am pretty sure I am still a feminist. I am also pretty sure that I still worry about being raped, and that I do not want it. Sometimes when I walk to the bus, strange men slow down in their cars and try to talk me into getting into their cars, and that scares me.
Does that mean I secretly want to be raped (?) or that I am actually a terrifying she-beast? I’m confused.
In any situation where there’s a victim then the shame should be carried by the person who made them into a victim rather than by the victim themselves.
In other news, misogynists understand female sexuality about as well as they understand nuclear physics, or possibly less so.