There’s a post on the AgainstMensRights subreddit today highlighting a comment from a Men’s Rights Redditor that offers some, well, interesting theories about why feminists are “obsessed” with rape and abortion, even though he thinks they are very ugly.
Actually, in his mind, it’s because they are very ugly, and secretly wish someone would be attracted enough to them to rape them.
I’m sure there are MRAs out there who would like to dismiss his posting as the ravings of a random Redditor. Sadly, it’s not. Despite the terribleness of his “explanation,” or perhaps because of it, it seems to be a common one amongst Manosphereians and Men’s Rightsers.
Indeed, in one notorious post a couple of years ago, A Voice for Men founder and all-around garbage human Paul Elam — probably the most important person in the Men’s Rights movement today — offered a much cruder version of this argument. [TRIGGER WARNING for some primo rape apologism. I have bolded the worst bits, and archived the post here in case Elam decides to take it down, as he has been doing with some of his more repellant posts].
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Isn’t it more than just a little fascinating that underneath all this hoopla about rape is a whole lot of women who, when thinking about some guy pinning them down in a kitchen and forcing a hand up their blouse, generally tend to do so with their own hand or a vibrator between their legs? …
And isn’t it also interesting that the most rape obsessive morons on the planet also happen to be some of the ugliest morons on the planet?
Consider this. If rape awareness was a religion, Andrea Dworkin was The Fucking Pope. The 300+ lb. basilisk of man-hate had a face big enough and pockmarked enough to be used to fake a lunar landing. Her body was roughly the size and shape of a small sperm whale.
And she thought of little else in her life other than rape. The subject drove almost everything she said and did.
She even claimed to have been drugged and raped in 1999 in Paris, an accusation that was never proven and which came under a great deal of scrutiny, apparently for damned good reason.
C’mon people, Dworkin’s problem wasn’t that she was raped. Her problem, and I mean all along, was that she wasn’t.
Oh, it gets worse:
Like a corrupt televangelist who only shuts up about sexual purity and morality long enough to secure the services of a five dollar hooker, Dworkin was the poster child for “The lady doth protest too much, methinks.”
Or, in other words, she was obsessed with rape, quite possibly even creating the illusion it happened to her, precisely because her worth on the sexual market was measured in pesos.
Dworkin wanted to be raped, which in her mind meant being sexually desired, but didn’t have the goods to make that happen so she made a career of hating both the source of her rejection, men, and the source of her competition, attractive women.
In the end, the most narcissistic of all Men’s Rightsers concludes that rape is all about female narcissism:
The concept of rape has a lot of utility for women. One, it feeds their narcissistic need to feel irresistible. Two, if feeds their narcissistic need to feel irresistible. That level of irresistibility is the pinnacle of a woman’s sexual viability and worth. And for a whole lot of women, sexual worth is the only self-worth they know.
A Voice for Men’s domestic violence mascot Erin Pizzey seconded Elam’s argument during an appearance of hers last year on Reddit.
If you’re referring to Paul’s statement that many or most women fantasize about being taken, I’m sorry but that’s the truth. That doesn’t mean they want to be raped, but it’s a fantasy I think almost all women have. And I think he went on to say that feminists like Andrea Dworkin who were and are so obsessed with rape are really projecting their own unconscious sexual frustration because men don’t give them enough attention. Andrea was a very sad lonely woman like this
This is an “insight” that many other manosphereians keep reinventing and announcing to the world. In a 2013 post, for example, the “Red Pill” blogger and sometime Return of Kings contributor who calls himself TheMaskAndRose offered a very similar take on the subject.
Feminists are ugly women. They are fat, old, masculine, aggressive, hateful, sociopathic, unattractive, or any combination of those things. Attractive women tend not to be Feminists, so I encourage you to think about why that’s the case. So keeping in mind that they’re not the type of women who normal men desire or pay any attention to, here’s my theory:
Rape culture is the ugly woman’s rape fantasy. …
I think the true heart of a rape fantasy is narcissism.
I think it’s about the idea of saying NO to a man, over and over, but he throws caution to the wind and gives into the animal instinct to just overtake you–because you’re so attractive, so beautiful, so alluring, so irresistible that he just can’t help himself.
It’s about being wanted, more than anything else. Wanted so badly that a man would risk throwing his whole life away just for the chance to put his penis in you.
So, since Feminists and unattractive women generally don’t have men paying any attention to them at all–at least not the sexual kind of attention they crave but won’t admit to … they instead cast themselves in the role of heroine in a cultural narrative whereby men think they’re just so fucking deliciously hot that they can’t wait for the chance to rape them.
They project that insanity onto the world around them, and voila–“rape culture.” A world full of scary men so overtaken with lust and desire for these fat, ugly, manly cow-beasts that you never know when one of them is going to risk his career, family, money, and life outside of prison just to have sex with you.
There is, of course, a much simpler explanation for why feminists tend to be “obsessed” with rape: because it happens all the fucking time.
Thanks, kitteh! Non-contact hug in return!
There’s more wisdom in that than in a whole shelf full of sex manuals.
Many men are afraid that if they aren’t in total control women won’t respect them, or if they are awkward or indecisive women will laugh at them. It’s my impression that women would rather have awkward and inexperienced than a man who decisively and skilfully does something they don’t liketime after time because his first girlfriend liked it (or at least didn’t complain) and hey, ya know, all women are alike.
Seriously, if you already have trauma around this issue, don’t read that guy’s stuff, much less the comments people might be leaving on it.
Adding to the hug pile.
Inexperienced men can acquire experience, but lack of consideration for other people’s boundaries and wishes is a problem that can’t be fixed.
Completely agree. Awkward and inexperienced, IMO, are okay as long as you’re willing to listen and learn and are definitely highly preferable to someone who believes that he or she must be right (even if his or her partner doesn’t like the activity) because a previous partner liked it or didn’t complain or because porn says that everyone likes this activity.
Definitely following your advice on that. Thanks.
Plus with the right attitude the learning process can be fun for everyone involved.
(“Don’t tell me what to do, that makes me feel so insecure that you know more than me, why can’t we just pretend I’m the one with more experience?” is not the right attitude.)
The carotid artery hold is considered deadly force and is directly below the use of weapons on the ladder of force. It is illegal in most jurisdictions and if you are using it you are guilty of attempted murder. The likelyhood that you will succeed in killing someone with it extremely high. Do not do it do not suggest it and if anyone suggests it to you run away fast. They want to kill you and pretend it was an accident.
This too. One of the with the guys who insist that they have to act in control and experienced all the time and who want to believe that all women want the same things seems to be that they want to have a list of motions that they can go through to attract and please (well, assuming they care much about that, but they do claim that being dominated pleases all women) every woman whom they want. Realizing that they have to adapt to every woman because she’s an individual is too much for them and too scary, probably because they have to admit that they might not be able to attract every woman whom they want.
Can’t speak for anyone else, but shit yeah, I sure would! Because this:
“a problem that can’t be fixed” I wouldn’t go quite that far, but it’s one that doesn’t seem to get fixed very often. Certainly it requires a major jolt of some kind.
Re choking: When I was in high school I was wrestling with a friend, got him in a fairly loose choke hold but cut off his carotid — he passed out and stopped breathing for a few seconds, then started breathing again and regained consciousness. He had some kind of irregularity that made him vulnerable to that happening. It was 50 years ago, and I still shudder when I think how close I was to having to go through life knowing I’d killed my friend. No one should ever choke someone unless they’re willing to be a killer.
Given that I have a lifetime of experience in being a woman who gets to deal with men who don’t respect women’s boundaries I think I may be in a better position to make that call than you are, GOM.
@thebewilderness,
Isn’t the carotid artery hold what killed Eric Garner?
Also, on inexperience vs. thining he’s lord and master: I can’t say “has repertoire of sexual tricks” ever appeared on my list of things I’d find appealing in a man. Affection and desire for mutual pleasure, yes, but technical stuff, or domination, or any of that? Yuck no.
Please let me hold on to my illusion that some people can change and grow.
You can hold on to whatever illusions you like, it’s attempting to impose them on women who may then cling to the same illusion to their own detriment that’s unacceptable.
I was wondering if that’s what killed Eric Garner, too – wikipedia only says chokehold.
@ Kittehs
That makes it sound like you’re assessing the dude’s ability to sit, roll over, and…I was going to add “play dead” but in the context of this conversation, let’s not.
MRA-level competence in graphic design:
https://www.facebook.com/MANDATORY/photos/a.251564004947905.47255.205523986218574/267836253320680/?type=1+
Yes, the carotid artery hold is called the “choke hold”. If you do it wrong you can crush their trachea. I you do it right and hold it too long they will have brain damage. That is why most jurisdictions outlawed it years ago.
@GOM:
Given the context had been chokeholds, do I need to mention that Margaret Atwood quote again.
FFS worrying about being laughed at is not a reason to harm women.
LOL!
I’d be about as likely to do that, I reckon. I must say “ability to impersonate happy dog” does have its appeal, as long as he didn’t think that meant humping people’s legs.
Though “has no problem with the concept of personal hygiene” would probably be added to the list these days.
Ermagerd that sign! Definitely a font fail of the highest order.
Now, now, who’s to say MegaFucks isn’t a perfectly legit, respectable store?
The illusion that a man with no respect for women’s boundaries or concern for women’s wellbeing might grow and change into a beautiful empathy-having butterfly is part of what keeps women in abusive relationships, especially when it’s being imposed on them from outside by well-meaning idiots. Sorry, dude, but women’s safety is more important than your ability to use the idea that horrible people might chance into decent ones as an emotional blankie.