There’s a post on the AgainstMensRights subreddit today highlighting a comment from a Men’s Rights Redditor that offers some, well, interesting theories about why feminists are “obsessed” with rape and abortion, even though he thinks they are very ugly.
Actually, in his mind, it’s because they are very ugly, and secretly wish someone would be attracted enough to them to rape them.
I’m sure there are MRAs out there who would like to dismiss his posting as the ravings of a random Redditor. Sadly, it’s not. Despite the terribleness of his “explanation,” or perhaps because of it, it seems to be a common one amongst Manosphereians and Men’s Rightsers.
Indeed, in one notorious post a couple of years ago, A Voice for Men founder and all-around garbage human Paul Elam — probably the most important person in the Men’s Rights movement today — offered a much cruder version of this argument. [TRIGGER WARNING for some primo rape apologism. I have bolded the worst bits, and archived the post here in case Elam decides to take it down, as he has been doing with some of his more repellant posts].
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Isn’t it more than just a little fascinating that underneath all this hoopla about rape is a whole lot of women who, when thinking about some guy pinning them down in a kitchen and forcing a hand up their blouse, generally tend to do so with their own hand or a vibrator between their legs? …
And isn’t it also interesting that the most rape obsessive morons on the planet also happen to be some of the ugliest morons on the planet?
Consider this. If rape awareness was a religion, Andrea Dworkin was The Fucking Pope. The 300+ lb. basilisk of man-hate had a face big enough and pockmarked enough to be used to fake a lunar landing. Her body was roughly the size and shape of a small sperm whale.
And she thought of little else in her life other than rape. The subject drove almost everything she said and did.
She even claimed to have been drugged and raped in 1999 in Paris, an accusation that was never proven and which came under a great deal of scrutiny, apparently for damned good reason.
C’mon people, Dworkin’s problem wasn’t that she was raped. Her problem, and I mean all along, was that she wasn’t.
Oh, it gets worse:
Like a corrupt televangelist who only shuts up about sexual purity and morality long enough to secure the services of a five dollar hooker, Dworkin was the poster child for “The lady doth protest too much, methinks.”
Or, in other words, she was obsessed with rape, quite possibly even creating the illusion it happened to her, precisely because her worth on the sexual market was measured in pesos.
Dworkin wanted to be raped, which in her mind meant being sexually desired, but didn’t have the goods to make that happen so she made a career of hating both the source of her rejection, men, and the source of her competition, attractive women.
In the end, the most narcissistic of all Men’s Rightsers concludes that rape is all about female narcissism:
The concept of rape has a lot of utility for women. One, it feeds their narcissistic need to feel irresistible. Two, if feeds their narcissistic need to feel irresistible. That level of irresistibility is the pinnacle of a woman’s sexual viability and worth. And for a whole lot of women, sexual worth is the only self-worth they know.
A Voice for Men’s domestic violence mascot Erin Pizzey seconded Elam’s argument during an appearance of hers last year on Reddit.
If you’re referring to Paul’s statement that many or most women fantasize about being taken, I’m sorry but that’s the truth. That doesn’t mean they want to be raped, but it’s a fantasy I think almost all women have. And I think he went on to say that feminists like Andrea Dworkin who were and are so obsessed with rape are really projecting their own unconscious sexual frustration because men don’t give them enough attention. Andrea was a very sad lonely woman like this
This is an “insight” that many other manosphereians keep reinventing and announcing to the world. In a 2013 post, for example, the “Red Pill” blogger and sometime Return of Kings contributor who calls himself TheMaskAndRose offered a very similar take on the subject.
Feminists are ugly women. They are fat, old, masculine, aggressive, hateful, sociopathic, unattractive, or any combination of those things. Attractive women tend not to be Feminists, so I encourage you to think about why that’s the case. So keeping in mind that they’re not the type of women who normal men desire or pay any attention to, here’s my theory:
Rape culture is the ugly woman’s rape fantasy. …
I think the true heart of a rape fantasy is narcissism.
I think it’s about the idea of saying NO to a man, over and over, but he throws caution to the wind and gives into the animal instinct to just overtake you–because you’re so attractive, so beautiful, so alluring, so irresistible that he just can’t help himself.
It’s about being wanted, more than anything else. Wanted so badly that a man would risk throwing his whole life away just for the chance to put his penis in you.
So, since Feminists and unattractive women generally don’t have men paying any attention to them at all–at least not the sexual kind of attention they crave but won’t admit to … they instead cast themselves in the role of heroine in a cultural narrative whereby men think they’re just so fucking deliciously hot that they can’t wait for the chance to rape them.
They project that insanity onto the world around them, and voila–“rape culture.” A world full of scary men so overtaken with lust and desire for these fat, ugly, manly cow-beasts that you never know when one of them is going to risk his career, family, money, and life outside of prison just to have sex with you.
There is, of course, a much simpler explanation for why feminists tend to be “obsessed” with rape: because it happens all the fucking time.
alaisvex – high five!
You know one thing that quite amazes me about the whole ‘oh you’re so vanilla’ shit, even before it gets to the horrible rapey stuff? – The assumption that sex needs accessories or kinks or whatever to be fun/interesting/passionate/wonderful. That just makes me wonder what the hell boring, or dare I say loveless, type of sex the sneerers would have without their toys.
NB: I’m not saying using things, having kinks, whatever, = automatically boring or bad; I’m talking specifically about the fuckwits who try to put down people who don’t want, or need, that sort of stuff.
Robot boobs? Pink robot boobs? The compulsive need to gender everything really has escalated in alarming ways since I was a kid.
Another issue with the BSDM oversharing is that oversharing of anything sexual is kind of a no-no in spaces that aren’t specifically designated for that purpose. I kind of brushed over the stuff upthread about breaking a cane on someone’s ass and so on because after spending as long in the scene as I did that kind of stuff is like wallpaper in prose form to me, but honestly, that’s way more explicit than is really polite even if you take out the kink element, and it also comes across as sexual boasting, which is going to get eye-rolling in most contexts. Basically explicitly sexualized conversations should always be opt-in, and there are spaces where it can be assumed that everyone has opted in, but a random blog where people are talking about misogyny isn’t one of them.
I have no idea why anyone would think talking about how much they enjoy hurting people and what a horrible person they think they themselves are for it could be translated into other people shaming them by agreeing with them. Creepy and manipulative and inappropriate, which is the point, I think.
And now you reminded me of that post doing the rounds on tumblr about the woman who decided to just agree with whatever compliments men gave her on a dating site, and how confused and angry that made them.
That one made me laugh!
It’s hilarious.
You’re really pretty
Yep
No you’re not, you arrogant bitch!
It’s like what happens when you ignore a catcaller in online form.
Makes me feel like asking, “What’s the problem, dude? I’m agreeing with you!” 😀
Completely agree on this one too. The other thing that gets me about people, particularly men, who assume that all women are submissive (and that those rare ones who aren’t are dommes) is that they just assume that women will like whatever “dominant” thing that they want to do, even if the woman outright says that she doesn’t want it. Mike Cernovich’s repeated protestations that all women totally love being choked during sex particularly scares me. I had an ex do that to me once without even asking first (thankfully, he stopped when I started freaking out), and it is not an experience that I’d ever want to repeat (having my airway cut off or having anything tighten around my neck, even something like a choker necklace, is a big no-no for me), let alone with someone who would probably keep doing it because, hey, that’s the Alpha move.
Bloody hell. I’m so sorry you went through that, alaisvex.
Does it not occur to these scum that someone’s going to think they’re about to be murdered when they’re being choked? That’s what I’d think, or that I was being raped. Or both.
Makes me wonder, do these fuckers think that what they deride as “vanilla” sex is just the woman lying passive while the man pumps away, and it’s that or the totes sexy thing of him doing more violent stuff to her?
Back to bras–I notice that the Title 9 bra people have linked here only goes up to size DDD according to their charts. I am… not a DDD. Does it work for bigger women too, and they are just sizing it for the population that hasn’t figured out G+ exists yet, or is it for DDDs only?
@ alaisvex – what a creep! I’m so sorry that he did that to you. Bloody rights he’s an ex (and I hope he’s either reformed or is still single).
Also, choking is really dangerous. Since we have a nurse here I’m guessing she can tell us all about the potential risks (and if she can’t, I can).
There’s a reason why even a lot of hardcore BSDM people won’t do breath restriction. That shit can kill you.
re “vanilla”: Don’t you realize that in this day and age everything, including sex, is all about technology?
re Ms. Agreeable: Women aren’t supposed to approve of themselves, they’re supposed to crave male approval. A woman who is happy with herself is committing absolutely the most horrible form of misandry.
@grumpyoldnurse,
I don’t know if he’s currently single. The relationship only lasted a couple of months (I wasn’t into letting it last longer), and I haven’t kept up on his activities. I don’t think that he’s reformed though. The bad part is that he’s superficially really charming, and people are drawn to him because they think that he’s so edgy and cool.
@kitteh
I don’t know why they think that it’s a good idea to just start doing something violent like choking a woman during sex or why they think that sex without d/s elements or toys must be so boring. The best sex that I’ve had has been pretty standard and non-kinky, and my current man (longest-term relationship that I’ve ever had too) is by far the best partner that I’ve ever had. He’s not particularly kinky, but that works because, hey, I’ve discovered through experimentation that I’m not either. Also, he doesn’t randomly include violent elements unless we discuss it first, and he listens to what I say I want and pays attention to what things get a good reaction from me. Because being good at sex is ultimately about figuring out what you and your partner actually want, not about living up to some arbitrary standard set by people who aren’t you or your love.
And Cassandra, I actually am glad to hear that most people into hardcore BDSM are careful about breath restriction. I know that there are plenty of good kinksters out there who know what they’re doing and exercise proper precautions. This ex of mine though…he claimed to be experienced (and he might’ve actually had a lot of sex before), but he didn’t know what he was doing. He got me to try anal because he was obsessed with it, and oh God, am I lucky that he didn’t give me an infection, switching back and forth between holes during sex. Granted, I should’ve done my own research instead of trusting him (I was incredibly inexperienced at the time), but he started asking for it while we were having sex, and I figured that he knew what he was doing, so I could follow his lead. Oh, and Mr. Expert also tried to go at first without lube and only applied it after I said that it was too painful to go on without.
And grumpoldman, lol. Should’ve realized that everything needs to be high-tech.
Courtesy of my wife:
http://cheezburger.com/8425724160
I’m the last person who’d ever claim that most BSDM communities are full of responsible people or that you can trust the majority of people you’d encounter there not to do anything stupid or dangerous, actually. That hasn’t been my experience at all. What I’m getting at is that even the people who in general I would consider not very responsible at all often frown on breath restriction, so the fact that it’s been mainstreamed by porn is alarming.
GOM:
EWWWWWWWWWWWWW
And it is so gratifying!
alaisvex:
This!
How insecure must these losers be, who insist that their way of Doing It is the only right way? How are they any more than a mirror image of the more obviously repressive anti-sex types? Because it’s seeming to me that they’re not into sex being pleasurable for all concerned, let alone loving, when they’re insisting there’s only one right way to do it, and that’s their way.
Then of course there’s the “oh noes kinksters are so oppressed” stuff. Um, well, why are you talking about specific sexual practices (which are, I repeat, not an orientation) in public or your workplace or whatever? How’s anyone going to know what you do in your sexytimes if you’re not broadcasting it? Boundaries, what are they?
Also, first time anal with no lube? Yeah, he sure was an expert (rolls eyes). I’m so glad you got away from that guy, and can only hope that every woman he’s met since dumps him as quickly as you did.
@Mrs GOM – symbiotic catvolution, love it! 😀
@cassandrakitty,
I understand your point now.
And yes, it is alarming that something so potentially dangerous is being mainstreamed. It’s also alarming to think that people like Mike Cernovich are giving instructions on their blogs on how to choke women during sex wherein they advise going for the carotid artery rather than the windpipe.
http://www.dangerandplay.com/2011/12/26/how-to-choke-a-woman/ (The link is upsetting to say the least.)
I wonder if it would be possible to hold him legally responsible if one of his stupid fanboys ends up killing someone as a result of following his “advice”.
If one of his fanboys actually does kill a woman (and let’s hope that it doesn’t), then I hope that we can hold him legally responsible for dispensing dangerous advice.
And I shouldn’t have skimmed that article. I’m getting an awful, choked up, panicked sensation from it. Shit.
Non-contact hugs, alaisvex!