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Men's Rightsers offer innovative new theory about rape and feminism. And by "innovative" I mean horrifying.

elam2020ps
Paul Elam: “Dworkin’s problem wasn’t that she was raped. Her problem, and I mean all along, was that she wasn’t.”

There’s a post on the AgainstMensRights subreddit today highlighting a comment from a  Men’s Rights Redditor that offers some, well, interesting theories about why feminists are “obsessed” with rape and abortion, even though he thinks they are very ugly.

Actually, in his mind, it’s because they are very ugly, and secretly wish someone would be attracted enough to them to rape them.

Sasha_ 3 points 1 day ago   I can't help noticing that many of these women protesting so vehemently about rape seem to be...well I don't really know how to put it; but if they're rape victims then there must be some very odd rapists in the US; because some of those women are clearly about 15+ stone in weight and there're not what one would describe as 'traditionally attractive' - unless one's particularly attracted to scary she-beasts.  It does make me wonder whether some of these women are motivated by sexuar frustration? A great many female feminists seem to be quite unhealthily obsessed with rape in a disturbingly-obsessed way.  It goes right across the board really - feminists are always banging on about rape and abortion. It's as though half the time they're obsessed with being 'ravished' - and God knows half the books women read seem to be rape-fantasises like that 'Twilight' nonsense - and the rest of the time they obsessed with killing the results.  The more I think about it, the more I think that feminist are really quite creepy.

I’m sure there are MRAs out there who would like to dismiss his posting as the ravings of a random Redditor. Sadly, it’s not. Despite the terribleness of his “explanation,” or perhaps because of it,  it seems to be a common one amongst Manosphereians and Men’s Rightsers.

Indeed, in one notorious post a couple of years ago, A Voice for Men founder and all-around garbage human Paul Elam — probably the most important person in the Men’s Rights movement today — offered a much cruder version of this argument. [TRIGGER WARNING for some primo rape apologism. I have bolded the worst bits, and archived the post here in case Elam decides to take it down, as he has been doing with some of his more repellant posts].

.

.

.

Isn’t it more than just a little fascinating that underneath all this hoopla about rape is a whole lot of women who, when thinking about some guy pinning them down in a kitchen and forcing a hand up their blouse, generally tend to do so with their own hand or a vibrator between their legs? …

And isn’t it also interesting that the most rape obsessive morons on the planet also happen to be some of the ugliest morons on the planet?

Consider this. If rape awareness was a religion, Andrea Dworkin was The Fucking Pope. The 300+ lb. basilisk of man-hate had a face big enough and pockmarked enough to be used to fake a lunar landing. Her body was roughly the size and shape of a small sperm whale.

And she thought of little else in her life other than rape. The subject drove almost everything she said and did.

She even claimed to have been drugged and raped in 1999 in Paris, an accusation that was never proven and which came under a great deal of scrutiny, apparently for damned good reason.

C’mon people, Dworkin’s problem wasn’t that she was raped. Her problem, and I mean all along, was that she wasn’t.

Oh, it gets worse:

Like a corrupt televangelist who only shuts up about sexual purity and morality long enough to secure the services of a five dollar hooker, Dworkin was the poster child for “The lady doth protest too much, methinks.”

Or, in other words, she was obsessed with rape, quite possibly even creating the illusion it happened to her, precisely because her worth on the sexual market was measured in pesos.

Dworkin wanted to be raped, which in her mind meant being sexually desired, but didn’t have the goods to make that happen so she made a career of hating both the source of her rejection, men, and the source of her competition, attractive women.

In the end, the most narcissistic of all Men’s Rightsers concludes that rape is all about female narcissism:

The concept of rape has a lot of utility for women. One, it feeds their narcissistic need to feel irresistible. Two, if feeds their narcissistic need to feel irresistible. That level of irresistibility is the pinnacle of a woman’s sexual viability and worth. And for a whole lot of women, sexual worth is the only self-worth they know.

A Voice for Men’s domestic violence mascot Erin Pizzey seconded Elam’s argument during an appearance of hers last year on Reddit.

If you’re referring to Paul’s statement that many or most women fantasize about being taken, I’m sorry but that’s the truth. That doesn’t mean they want to be raped, but it’s a fantasy I think almost all women have. And I think he went on to say that feminists like Andrea Dworkin who were and are so obsessed with rape are really projecting their own unconscious sexual frustration because men don’t give them enough attention. Andrea was a very sad lonely woman like this

This is an “insight” that many other manosphereians keep reinventing and announcing to the world. In a 2013 post, for example, the “Red Pill” blogger and sometime Return of Kings contributor who calls himself TheMaskAndRose offered a very similar take on the subject.

Feminists are ugly women. They are fat, old, masculine, aggressive, hateful, sociopathic, unattractive, or any combination of those things. Attractive women tend not to be Feminists, so I encourage you to think about why that’s the case. So keeping in mind that they’re not the type of women who normal men desire or pay any attention to, here’s my theory:

Rape culture is the ugly woman’s rape fantasy.

I think the true heart of a rape fantasy is narcissism.

I think it’s about the idea of saying NO to a man, over and over, but he throws caution to the wind and gives into the animal instinct to just overtake you–because you’re so attractive, so beautiful, so alluring, so irresistible that he just can’t help himself.

It’s about being wanted, more than anything else. Wanted so badly that a man would risk throwing his whole life away just for the chance to put his penis in you.

So, since Feminists and unattractive women generally don’t have men paying any attention to them at all–at least not the sexual kind of attention they crave but won’t admit to … they instead cast themselves in the role of heroine in a cultural narrative whereby men think they’re just so fucking deliciously hot that they can’t wait for the chance to rape them.

They project that insanity onto the world around them, and voila–“rape culture.” A world full of scary men so overtaken with lust and desire for these fat, ugly, manly cow-beasts that you never know when one of them is going to risk his career, family, money, and life outside of prison just to have sex with you.

There is, of course, a much simpler explanation for why feminists tend to be “obsessed” with rape: because it happens all the fucking time.

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Bina
Bina
6 years ago

Isn’t it more than just a little fascinating that underneath all this hoopla about rape is a whole lot of women who, when thinking about some guy pinning them down in a kitchen and forcing a hand up their blouse, generally tend to do so with their own hand or a vibrator between their legs?

No, Paulie. No, it is NOT. Because I have never fucking done that! And I’d wager that most other women don’t, either.

bodycrimes
6 years ago

My God, the thing that shocks me most about this is my own lack of reaction. Nothing these guys write surprises me any more. Could that mean the misogynists have hit Peak Shitfulness?

Jenny (@dontgiveah00t)

I wish I knew how to put a picture in here. I can think of several reaction gifs that are just made for this filth.

It’s really creepy how these MRA types always try to set rape up as something the victim benefits from and even outright wants (wants enough to lie about it happening, no less), while the poor innocent rapist is the one who unfairly suffers judgement for, you know, raping someone.

Falconer
6 years ago

Isn’t it more than just a little fascinating that underneath all this hoopla about rape is a whole lot of women who, when thinking about some guy pinning them down in a kitchen and forcing a hand up their blouse, generally tend to do so with their own hand or a vibrator between their legs?

Oh god, I can hear him fapping.

Bina
Bina
6 years ago

Also,

And isn’t it also interesting that the most rape obsessive morons on the planet also happen to be some of the ugliest morons on the planet?

Yeah, Paulie, it totally is. And you are about as rape-obsessive a moron as I have ever seen.

chaltab
chaltab
6 years ago

You know how we in the reality-observant community often suggest that the more absurd ‘theories’ MRAs come up with are just a form of projection: they think women/male feminists have [horrible quality x] because they possess [horrible quality x] and can’t imagine others being different?

Why that springs to mind I’m really not sure.

Jenny (@dontgiveah00t)

I mean, yes, some people do have rape fantasies, or even participate in consensual roleplay involving pretend rape. That isn’t the same thing as secretly wanting to be raped in reality, because a fantasy/roleplay is something you control. Even with the fantasy/roleplay of having control and consent forcibly taken from you, you’re still the one in control of the fantasy/roleplay and can end it at any time. From what I’ve read, it’s about relinquishing control in a safe and respectful environment, which is the opposite to actual rape.

Regardless of what Elam thinks, there’s nothing flattering about a man finding you ‘so irresistible’ that he ignores your expressed wishes to have your boundaries respected. And not every woman wants sexual or even romantic attention from men – indeed, some do not want it from anybody at all for various reasons.

anemonerosie
6 years ago

Because healing from rape never caused anyone to turn to feminism, amirite?

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

What these guys are doing is giving each other permission to rape women who aren’t conventionally attractive. Because “ugly” women desire rape.

Tom J. Nelson
6 years ago

At this point the entire mens rights “Movement” seems like the worst people in the world just competing to come up with the most vile thing possible for some horrible prize.

Jenny (@dontgiveah00t)

What these guys are doing is giving each other permission to rape women who aren’t conventionally attractive. Because “ugly” women desire rape.

The nail is now concussed from being hit on the head by weirwoodhugger so precisely.

M. the Social Justice Ranger
M. the Social Justice Ranger
6 years ago

I’m used to them erasing the existence of lesbians, asexuals, children and conventionally-attractive feminists by omission, but I still had to raise an eyebrow at them flat-out admitting their erasure of that last one.

sn0rkmaiden
6 years ago

It’s a pity none of these crapwits theorizing about Dworkin never bother to do any actual research on her. But I suppose facts get in the way of a good story; or in this case, an utterly shit fantasy by a bunch of rape apologists.

andiexist
andiexist
6 years ago

@contrapangloss

That gif is amazing. This post, however, was slightly ill-timed, since I was recently talking about the abusive relationship/sexual harassment I went through. It’s okay, though, that gif was exactly the brain bleach I needed. : D

thebewilderness
6 years ago

This is an ancient myth that has been passed down from one generation of misogynists to the next. If you read project unbreakable you will see the result of this myth is men telling the children they are raping that they need to stop crying because everyone knows they wanted to be raped.

thebewilderness
6 years ago

Are we to conclude that gamers who obsess over first person shooters are yearning to become mass murderers? Cuz logic.

I am getting insecure site warnings when I try to sign in to this web site. Anyone else?

ParadoxicalIntention
6 years ago

anemonerosle

Because healing from rape never caused anyone to turn to feminism, amirite?

That’s certainly not the reason I’m here. [/sarcasm]

But, seriously, that whole thing. There aren’t enough tables for me to flip in my anger. Time for a CONVEYER BELT.
comment image

{TRIGGER WARNING FOR THIS NEXT BIT. I talk about some very personal shit.}

I wasn’t raped because I was “conventionally attractive”, I was raped because I was a small child in the custody of a rapist who knew that if I told, no one would believe me, knew that he could also condition me not to tell in the first place because I was afraid of him because he beat me and my siblings on a regular basis for every minor infraction, and convinced me that I was a lowly, ugly piece of human garbage who could do no better and wasn’t worth respect, love, or care.

I don’t WANT to be held down and violated again and again for two years with no shits given towards my comfort or consent. I didn’t want it then, and I certainly don’t want it now. Or ever again, thanks.

But you know what? It was thanks to feminism that I was able to see that it wasn’t my fault. I was a victim, yes, but I survived my ordeal. It was thanks to feminism I was able to accept what happened to me and that I could go on. I won’t ever be the same, sure, but I could still go on and live my life.

And that’s really fucking important.

P.S. To that redditor – Twilight is fucking garbage. So is Fifty Shades of Grey. A lot of women who read that don’t know that what’s going on in all that “romance” is abuse, and many women, myself included, constantly speak out about it.

They’re not “bestsellers” because they’re about abuse, they’re “bestsellers” because society has convinced women that abuse is romance. This is a lie all women have believed at some point or another, and I am no exception.

Don’t believe me? The authors of these books are women. Their target audience is women. Simple as that.

seraph4377
6 years ago

I know this is OT, but do any pictures of Paul Elam exist where he doesn’t look coked to the gills?

sunnysombrera
6 years ago

What these guys are doing is giving each other permission to rape women who aren’t conventionally attractive. Because “ugly” women desire rape.

I’m sure they have created, out of their own shit, an argument for raping conventionally attractive women too. I’m not sure what it is exactly but it probably goes something like this: if a hot woman gives you a boner but says no to sex, she’s oppressing you but secretly wants sex because she’s a hot woman, and hot women are sluts.

thebewilderness
6 years ago

ParadoxicalIntention, I would hug you if I could, and if I were not such a “touch me not” and if you wanted hugs from strangers on the interwebs.

Jenny (@dontgiveah00t)

@seraph4377 – right? He’s always got that wild, wide-eyed look like he’s two seconds away from a full-on rage meltdown.

ParadoxicalIntention
6 years ago

@thebewliderness: I’m very much a hugger, but if you don’t want me in your personal space, I will nod at you respectfully from a distance.

http://i.imgur.com/nbjNn.gif

vyechera
vyechera
6 years ago

Thanks for this post, David. Elam is such a calculating cruel fuck. Pizzey isn’t an independent person any more, she’s a handmaiden. A lot more could be said about this lady.

Elam doesn’t believe women are human. They have no credibility, can’t speak as witnesses, and are assumed to be unreliable. If they say “I was raped”; it’s a lie. That’s monstrousness. He thinks he’s being provocative, but he’s monstrous. He’s monstrous, let me repeat his modus operandi, and what he says is monstrous.

Dworkin’s words will stand long after Elam goes into the landfill as a piece of shit somebody dumped into the trash.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

Sunny,
I’m sure their logic for conventionally attractive women wanting rape is as follows.

Attractive women do boner pleasing things like wear makeup, stay thin, have long hair and wear nice clothes. Also attractive women are Hypergamous sluts. Also, cock carousel.

ParadoxicalIntention
6 years ago

You know what?

I’m really fucking tired of the word “victim” being sneered at people like it’s some kind of insult. I’m really fucking tired of the negative connotation that these assholes – and those who think like them – have peddled.

Being a victim does NOT mean that you are a lesser person. It does NOT mean “whiny attention-wanting bitch”, it means someone who has been hurt and needs help.

This is the kind of shit that prevents rape victims from speaking up and getting help. The idea that “victim” is a dirty, dirty word, and something you should never want to be, even if (ESPECIALLY if) you have been made into one.

I’m also tired of Elam and his cabal trying to insinuate that feminism wants women to have “victim complexes” because it encourages women to speak out about being victimized so they can get help and support.

No. Fuck you Elam. YOU want me to have a “victim complex”. YOU want me to be victimized constantly to make you and your rabble feel big and powerful. YOU want to make me to be a victim, and the one to blame for it. YOU want me to stew in it for the rest of my life and feel tiny and helpless while you and yours dance around me, cackling because you’re not happy unless women are under the heel of your boot.

Feminism wants me to heal. Feminism wants to help. Feminism helped me accept what happened to me. Feminism has helped me far more than you ever would have wanted, and fuck you, your FeMRA shields, and your blog for trying to take that away from me, and other women like me.

*hops off soapbox*

vyechera
vyechera
6 years ago

@Paradoxicalintention, hugs anyway however you like them. What woman among us hasn’t been there or close to it? God damn this monstrousness.

ParadoxicalIntention
6 years ago

@vyechera:

Thank you. I just need to go take some deep breaths and play Minecraft or something. I don’t have the energy for this today. I didn’t want to wake up only to deal with this.

To be fair, I most likely shouldn’t have read the article. But, My morbid curiosity knows no bounds, so I did it anyway.

Also so I could offer hugs and polite, respectful nods to people who would like them.

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140304031102/glee/images/1/1f/Xtina_hug_me.gif

kittehserf
kittehserf
6 years ago

My God, the thing that shocks me most about this is my own lack of reaction. Nothing these guys write surprises me any more. Could that mean the misogynists have hit Peak Shitfulness?

Same here, bodycrimes. Except I’m not shocked about my lack of reaction. It’s more of the same, more of what these rapist wannabes so obviously think.

Jenny – if you want to post pics, just paste the URL in your comment. Most will embed, some will just post the link, but either way it should work.

thebewilderness, I’m not getting warnings, but I’m always logged in here.

Cyberwulf
Cyberwulf
6 years ago

So after my initial reaction, which was THROATPUNCH, I was reminded of that passage in the SCUM Manifesto* where Solanis describes men as projecting all their inherent negative traits onto women. Think about it. MRAs spend so, so much of their time hating women/vaginas with all their might, while simultaneously desperately seeking to possess them. To them, “feminists hate rape – clearly they really want it, just like I really want the one thing I also hate more than anything else” is a perfectly logical deduction.

(*I can never decide whether SCUM is intended to be serious, or whether it’s pure satire, especially of Freud’s theory of penis envy. I don’t endorse it, jsek.)

Miss Andry
6 years ago

This isn’t much different from what the Christian Right has been known to say about rape and rape victims. For example, one writer from the American Thinker said that Lena Dunham 1) was never raped and 2) “unconsciously envies the experience of being raped.” I wonder if people like this ever hear themselves speak.

Cyberwulf
Cyberwulf
6 years ago

Also, IME the people who sneer “Victim complex/professional victim” are the first ones to howl ever-so-loudly whenever anyone calls them on their crap or even says anything slightly mean about them, like, say, “get a life”.

thebewilderness
6 years ago

I told it to keep me logged in to WP but it won’t do it so I reenter my info each time. So maybe it is an issue with WP

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
6 years ago

And the irony is that practically every feminist in the world, if asked, will assure you that they don’t believe men rape simply because they are so overwhelmed by the sexiness of their target. That’s the belief of the MRAs.

In fact, MRAs have formed an actual hierarchy of attractiveness by declaring some men alphas and bad boys and other men betas, gammas, deltas, and so on. MRAs constantly whine about how their piss-poor attempts at flirtation would be successful if only they were more attractive.

And then they practically fall over themselves denouncing the totally-real-not-even-remotely-made-up scourge of sperm-jacking, where a woman that actually does miraculously have sex with them steals their sperm, without their consent and outside of their control, in a bizarre extortion exercise.

Projection, projection, blah blah blah. This is some horrid nonsense built on a mountain of bullshit constructed by MRAs flinging their poop around in a closed room.

M. the Social Justice Ranger
M. the Social Justice Ranger
6 years ago

@Paradoxical

All the hugs in the world for when you get back.

Cyberwulf
Cyberwulf
6 years ago

@kirbywarp – do they whine about sperm-jacking in between bragging about “raw dogging” and “evil feminists getting abortions for fun”? I think they do!

Tyra Lith
Tyra Lith
6 years ago

“It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society” – Jiddu Krishnamurti

If those guys can’t understand why some are outraged that women are raped all the fucking time, maybe they should start asking themselves why they themselves are not outraged. Of course that would require them to see women as people and therefore consider horrible things being done to women as a serious problem.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
6 years ago

@Tyra Lith:

You expect too much. They do ask themselves why they aren’t outraged, and their answer is because all rape claims are false. They then get outraged.

grumpyoldnurse
6 years ago

@ ParadoxicalIntention – internet hugs, if you want them.

@ MRA’s – PFO! Sorry, too angry to think of anything witty to say.

Dawn Incognito
Dawn Incognito
6 years ago

Speaking of AVFM and rape, I checked out the protest against Bill Cosby’s show tonight. There seemed to be a wee counter-protest across the street: I saw one dude in a Voice For Men shirt and what appeared to be another man with a pro-Cosby sign.

(I would have joined the protest but me and crowds/police/news cameras don’t get along. Anxiety fist-bump!)

@ParadoxicalIntention:

They’re not “bestsellers” because they’re about abuse, they’re “bestsellers” because society has convinced women that abuse is romance. This is a lie all women have believed at some point or another, and I am no exception.

Seconded! I used to read trashy romance books when I was younger, and I am horrified in retrospect at how often the heroine is raped ravished by the hero at first. It’s awful how women are conditioned to be passive and wait for the man to initiate sexual activity and resist at first (so they’re not a slut) so they can be “seduced”. Hopefully that narrative is becoming less prevalent now.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Really, guys, it’s just not polite to post your sexual fantasies in public. Can’t you go masturbate to the idea of raping feminists in private?

Also, blech.

Myriad
Myriad
6 years ago

Ah the ever delightful feminist are ugly and all women fantasize about being raped trope all in one post. Yeah, like rape has anything to do with the attractiveness of the victim. I can’t say I’m surprised either, bodycrimes. Sigh.

Thebewilderness, I saw someone on another thread say they got a similar warning earlier today. I cannot recall if it was the Roosh V thread or the hair buns and glasses oppress men tread.

Paradoxicalintention, hugs if you want them. I hope the whole lot of them step on a bunch of Legos.

Catalpa
Catalpa
6 years ago

Ugh, this kind of shit comes from the same vein as the assholes who say “Catcalling is a compliment, women love getting catcalled! All those women who say that they hate it and find it demeaning or threatening are filthy liars and should be grateful they even get any attention in the first place the ugly [insert slur of choice here]”

Obviously being catcalled isn’t the same thing as rape, but there’s scads of assholes claiming that things women say are really not okay are actually exactly what they want.

I suspect it is a matter of “If I were to accept the concepts women are saying, it would challenge my everyday behavior and the behavior of my comrades, and I’m not comfortable with change, therefore the premise is false and women need to shut up and stop acting like autonomous human beings instead of empty vessels on which I can prove my worth and maniless.”

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Occam’s Razor would suggest that if the majority of women are saying they don’t like something, it’s because women as a whole don’t like that thing. But that’s no fun for misogynists to wank to, so we get this crap instead.

Bina
Bina
6 years ago

And in other rapey news, we have this. I think I need a table-flipping conveyor belt of my own.

Am now deploying Stealth Kitten, for ParadoxicalIntention and everyone else here who needs a dose of all’s-right-with-the-world:

Bonus: The little sweetie is a tortie!

Cthulhu's Intern
6 years ago

Isn’t it interesting how when being cut off while driving, most men fantasize about killing that person? I bet that really means that all men secretly like murdering others for the slightest wrongdoing to them, even if it was possibly accidental.

Alex
6 years ago

Paradoxicalintention,

I’m really fucking tired of the word “victim” being sneered at people like it’s some kind of insult. I’m really fucking tired of the negative connotation that these assholes – and those who think like them – have peddled.

Being a victim does NOT mean that you are a lesser person. It does NOT mean “whiny attention-wanting bitch”, it means someone who has been hurt and needs help.

This is the kind of shit that prevents rape victims from speaking up and getting help. The idea that “victim” is a dirty, dirty word, and something you should never want to be, even if (ESPECIALLY if) you have been made into one.

QFT Also, hugs if you want them.

Really, I get why people use “survivor”, but to me, that doesn’t include everyone. Not every victim survives their ordeal, and some, even if they live, carry what happened to them to the grave. If something terrible happens to you, then you’re a victim. Doesn’t mean you stay one, but there should be no shame in being a victim when you’re being or have just been victimized!

Tracy
Tracy
6 years ago

@Paradoxicalintention all the hugs in all the worlds in all the universes.

Mouse Farts
Mouse Farts
6 years ago

ParadoxicalIntention: I am a hugger! Would you like hugs? I can give you hugs! I also have cat pictures and cat videos, and some tortilla chips and salsa. You know. Whatever you’d like.

OT:

You know? I’m conventionally attractive. Like – long hair, big eyes, thin, white, all that jazz. I see people talk about having a natural bitch face and I am jealous, because when I am irritated, I look approximately as intimidating as a frightened deer. No one takes me seriously.

I am pretty sure I am still a feminist. I am also pretty sure that I still worry about being raped, and that I do not want it. Sometimes when I walk to the bus, strange men slow down in their cars and try to talk me into getting into their cars, and that scares me.

Does that mean I secretly want to be raped (?) or that I am actually a terrifying she-beast? I’m confused.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

In any situation where there’s a victim then the shame should be carried by the person who made them into a victim rather than by the victim themselves.

In other news, misogynists understand female sexuality about as well as they understand nuclear physics, or possibly less so.

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