This somewhat alarming video was recently posted in Reddit’s GamerGhazi subreddit. It features Sarkeesian Effect co-creator Jordan Owen explaining, at some length, his disagreements with antiporn feminist Gail Dines over the book Fifty Shades of Grey. (Dines, you see, was Owen’s previous obsession, before he discovered Anita Sarkeesian; this video is a couple of years old.) Alas, the sound cuts out about halfway through the nearly hour-long video, so you won’t get to hear the whole thing.
You might also be slightly distracted by the fact that Owen delivers this lengthy critique while sitting naked in a bathtub.
In addition to the heaps of misogyny. (meant to add that to my last post).
RE Sex ed, sure! But porn is terrible sex ed, because it’s fundamentally about what looks good rather than what feels good (among other problems).
Noooooo! So many illusions, gone…
Lol, that’s the point I was making.
@ Fibinachi – See, I *knew* that I should not Google Kinbaku, but I went and did it, any how.
If in doubt, don’t google. This rule will serve you well.
Also, watch as I combine threads! Now I’m wondering if Rain is in the same “too pretty to be a man according to gamergate dudes” category as Bill Kaulitz. One the one hand, yep, he’s really pretty, and was kind of androgynous facially when he was younger. On the other hand, abs you could crack walnuts on.
Still not a ninja, though, either way.
The other problem with the argument for porn as instruction manual is that, well, that’s kind of the fucking problem. Suddenly women are expected to wax our genitals and bleach our anuses and anal sex has become an expectation rather than an option, and it’s not hard to figure out why. And the fact that it is overwhelmingly women feeling these effects is not lost on us. But the second you suggest that porn is a problem, you’re a sex-hating fundie who even other feminists will disavow.
This!
I get so tired of being called a prude or frigid by people who honestly think they’re not negatively affected by porn.
And that “lol prudes, amirite?” reaction to porn-critical woman was exactly the division that Robert’s comment was playing on, with a bit of ageism thrown in. I’m guessing that he thought that would be fine because in so many feminist spaces that is the norm (unfortunately), but in this particular space? There are lots of people who aren’t going to let that pass without pushing back.
yeah, no. there are legit arguments for why porn is bad. it doesn’t mean a person is a prude for wanting sex to be like something other than porn.
To expand on Emily’s point, one of the many problems with porn as instruction manual is that it’s centered entirely around what men like, because that’s the target audience, so it tells the viewer/student absolutely nothing about what women like BUT at the same time it pretends that it does have something to say about what women like, and that therefore if the woman who you’re sleeping with doesn’t like the things that porn has taught you that she should, then there’s something wrong with her.
And then you get men socialized partly by the porn they’ve been watching arguing with their partners that, well, the woman in the movie that he watched liked it (whatever it is in this case), so what’s her problem? And either forgetting or deliberately ignoring the fact that there’s a reason we refer to the performers as “actresses”.
because i haven’t said this but i should have: cassandrakitty, you’re an amazing person and i have nothing but respect for you
@ cassandrakitty –
That’s why I’m so disappointed in myself. I knew that rule, but I went and did it anyhow…
@ Puddleglum
THIS!!! There is an old friend of my husband’s family who used to get tipsy at family gatherings and then look at me and start a TMI rant about how nurses are prudes because we’re all germaphobes. I feel like that with the ‘why don’t you like porn’ pressure. Seriously, grown-ups can do what they want with their own bodies and dangly bits, but please don’t try to tell me that stuff like this happens in a vacuum and even questioning it makes one a prude.
Aw (blushes)
On the nurses are germphobes thing, maybe this is just me, but I’d really prefer any medical personnel who’re treating me to be as germphobic as possible. What does that dude want, a nurse who doesn’t wash her hands? That does not strike me as a good thing.
I always knew (well, since I started learning about feminism) that men get unrealistic expectations about women’s bodies from consuming porn, but I didn’t realize it affected me, too. Because I’m just special apparently.
Anyway, about a million years ago, I was at lunch with my brothers and some of their friends one day, when one of them did a big lean-back and stretch, which pulled his shirt up, and showed off his slightly pudgy, very hairy tummy. I was totally taken aback, because to my media-trained, virgin eyes, men (other than my brothers, natch) had nice, smooth six-packs.
The big issue I have with mainstream porn is that is teaches both men and women that female sexuality is about boner pleasing and being decorative. It’s not about being sexual, it’s about being sexy. This is the same reason I side eye people who claim it’s “empowering” for women who aren’t strippers to take stripperobics exercise classes.
@cassandrakitty
you’re very outspoken and you catch a lot of shit for that. it’s very appreciated, at least by me, and i thought you should know. we’re always faster w/ the negative feedback than the positive. just wanted to redress a little.
thanks.
My standard operating procedure is to never image search any Japanese term. Or any other term. I was perhaps somewhat maliciously peppering my quippy response with a term I had to google myself just to lay a picture-mine for someone else.
(cackle)
That’s the other problem? I guess I just thought the other problem wasn’t so much the potential image distortions, rather the weird,vast gulf between “on screen” and “actual safe practice that won’t land you and your lover(s) in the ER”.
maybe that’s the third problem? Or the fourth one? I lose track. There are a lot of problems.
It’s really nice that we can have this conversation here. It’s as others noted unacceptable to criticize porn in so many other spaces.
I feel like we should be having a group hug now.
Also on the porn thing, I feel like part of the push to not criticize is that most people have watched porn, so criticism feels personal to a lot of people, but the thing is, if you react that way to even the most reasonable, practical discussion of the potential problems, isn’t that pretty much what the gamergaters are doing? How dare anyone criticize a thing that I like? Except without the death threats and the terrible stick figure posters. It’s the same “you’re critiquing a product that I consume, therefore you are critiquing ME” impulse, though, I think.
@POM
Thank you, seriously. There’s been a whole lot of “omg you are such a meanie” lately, so it’s nice to hear that not everyone feels that way.
@ cassandrakitty – It was actually a lady. I think she was trying to imply something about how ripped off Mr.Grump was in the lovin’ department. He doesn’t seem to think that he’s hard done by, mind you. 😉 But yes, all health care professionals should wash their hands all. the. damn. time.
@ Fibinachi – You certainly caught me in the picture mine! I like to think that I’m not the only one you caught, just the only one to admit it…
Generally, I honestly believe that porn’s OK, as long as there’s no coercion or exploitation of the actors involved. And as long as viewers don’t use porn to pressure their partners into doing stuff they don’t like. And as long as everyone remembers that people in the general populace don’t look like porn stars, and shouldn’t have to groom themselves like porn stars. And as long as people don’t use porn to escape from IRL relationships. And as long as paedophiles don’t use porn (or erotica) to groom victims. And as long as the porn depicts realistic, safe sex. And as long as the porn doesn’t objectify the participants.
I could continue my teal deer, but you get the idea.
I figured we’d all collectively decided we just were generally evil mean no fun people out to be evil and mean.
As a point (Which I believe I’ve stated before, but googling only leads me to poetry and a rant about econonomics)
(sidenote: I think Google has my personality down to perfection)
I don’t actually mind porn, in the same way I don’t mind anything I think of as “entertainment”. Lots of people seem into it, so who I am to say they’re not really enjoying their stuff. Enjoy your stuff! Personally, I’m a saint and persist only on green tea, meditation and the slight nervous flutter I get whenever I find myself thinking uncharitable thoughts about people wearing anything less than a coat. Scandalous.
Ahem. There a lot to criticize and point out and talk about and bring up sometimes, though, re: porn. And I think it’s odd and unsettling that doing that lends easily towards someone being told they’re a prude, anti-sex oppressor of the worst kind out to shame all everyone into submission for having evil deviant desires of a transgressive kind.
No, just, maybe, err, think about how often choking people on tv in sexual encounters lead to the idea that it’s an integral part of relations between people? Maybe? It’s not hard.
@ Fibinachi – I think some of the push back one encounters when criticising porn comes from projection, and the push-backer’s own sense of shame about watching porn.
TW – child molestation – porn was one of the things that was used on me when I was being groomed. But, I don’t blame the porn, I blame the pedo. I’ve also watched porn as an adult, so maybe I’m just a big fat hypocrite? I don’t know, it’s possible!