This somewhat alarming video was recently posted in Reddit’s GamerGhazi subreddit. It features Sarkeesian Effect co-creator Jordan Owen explaining, at some length, his disagreements with antiporn feminist Gail Dines over the book Fifty Shades of Grey. (Dines, you see, was Owen’s previous obsession, before he discovered Anita Sarkeesian; this video is a couple of years old.) Alas, the sound cuts out about halfway through the nearly hour-long video, so you won’t get to hear the whole thing.
You might also be slightly distracted by the fact that Owen delivers this lengthy critique while sitting naked in a bathtub.
I’m sorry… but my first association for kitten pie is this:
(no worry they get saved later, but still *shudder*. Baaaad memories.)
My first association was with the old nursery rhyme with 4 and 20 blackbirds, but with kittens.
(Do Americans and Aussies know that one or is it Brit only?)
4 & 20 blackbirds was a thing when i was a kid in murrica, yes
Here’s the thing: yeah, it may have been wrong and even homophobic to lump gay porn under a criticism of het porn unless one is indeed familiar with gay porn (we have no way of knowing whether the woman in the story was or not).
But coming into a feminist space – one where we’ve not reacted well to sneering caricatures of second wavers in the past – and telling the story in a way that makes that woman into a sneering caricature of a second waver? Insisting that “my porn is different!” – even when it’s not relevant to the comment he’s replying to? Attempting to pit feminists against each other and assuming you know which side the people you’re addressing will fall on? And all of that on a thread about a dude who has a real bug up his butt about Gail Dines? None of that was cool.
The existence of porn-critical feminists makes many men uncomfortable. Why one of those men thought this was the place to whine about it is beyond me.
(Points up)
And the thing is, Robert is a regular, he already knows all of this. Why he thought it was a good idea to slap the other regulars who’re anti-porn in the face with his glove all “I challenge you to a duel!” I have no idea, but when someone does that they should expect the people on the receiving end to give it right back, and by asking that they refrain from doing so you’re essentially insisting that his viewpoint be the only one being heard, and silencing those who disagree. That’s not acceptable in a feminist space.
I actually read 50 shades. If it is supposed to be erotica it is very badly written. Can’t speak to the BDSM elements as that has never appealed to me. She does leave the guy at the end but she apparently goes back as there are two more books.
Tracy and Myriad, so sorry about your kitties. I’m sure they had lovely lives with you.
Irene, glad to hear that your kitty is doing a bit better. Baby food worked for my old cat when she wouldn’t eat anything else, turkey and ham flavors especially.
Also glad to see all the kitty pics here. The cycle of kitties continues.
I don’t have much of a position either pro-porn or anti-porn, but have a story somewhat like Robert’s. In my case, though, it was an exchange between two speakers at a conference with several speakers about various -isms. The speaker on sexism devoted about half the time to talking about porn from an anti- position and made a number of strong points, but weakened them by speaking as if all porn contained women necessarily by definition. That was a clear case of erasure that has stuck with me as a negative example. (I could bring up a minor quibble, but don’t know enough about FF or other non-OS porn to generalize.)
As Policy of Madness explains the active/passive pattern, it seems a worthwhile pursuit to approach gay porn with such a point in view and see how things can be improved. The complaint that, “there’s always a feminized partner,” though, comes across largely the same as that ghastly question directed at MM couples, “Which one of you is the woman?” (not a good thing for women, either, I’d suggest) It’s the presumption that the straight person (at least it usually comes from straight people in my experience) complaining/asking has comprehensive insight into the mindset of gay people being sexual together that irks me; no straight person whose experience is completely different from mine has the standing to tell me that I or my partner feminized the other.
It’s just too easy to visualize non-straight people being judged/punished for straight offences. My instinct would be to have different standards for various permutations (to be tolerably inclusive).
Myriad, I am so sorry about Bones! Hugs if they’re welcome.
Oh hell yeah. Four’n’Twenty is an old, very well known pastry brand here – mind you their pies are horrible.
The rhyme was the first thing I thought of with that gorgeous kitty bed, too.
Re: Robert’s comment: everything cassandrakitty and emilygoddess said just above.
there’s a deep rabbit hole of misogyny/homophobia complex involved in the “must be one feminized partner” statement but i don’t think i am up to pecking it out one-handed this way. it’s not a good statement to make and there are layers to the not-right-ness.
I can understand why Robert was offended by the 2nd wave feminists’ statements about gay porn and about her erasure of queer men in her commentary on porn. However, Jody’s comment specifically referred to a “great deal of mainstream porn…especially gonzo” and implicitly referred to straight porn only because she referred to problems with men trying to pressure their girlfriends into sex acts that they saw in porn, so I don’t think that the problematic, potentially homophobic statements that Robert encountered in his conversation in the early 1980s were present in Jody’s comment.
Dines doesn’t seem to care about gay porn at all, which is part of the reason why many people are reading Robert’s comment as a convenient excuse to take a swipe at Second Wave/porn-critical feminists. What does the woman he encountered have to do with Dines, or with this conversation? Nothing much, really, unless you’re working under the assumption that being porn-critical is inherently a ridiculous position.
The only porn that I like is the kitty and/or food kind (exemplified by the kitten pie above). All the studio-made humans-having-sex stuff I’ve ever seen, gay or straight, hasn’t done a bloody thing for me. Problematic statements about gender roles aside (and yes, that’s a MAJOR problem I have with it, too), it’s also just all so deadly dull, clinical, and devoid of fun and affection. Once the “Oh look, naked bodies having sex!” titillation wears off, the whole thing just gets old so fast. If this is supposed to enhance our sex lives or empower us, I don’t see how the hell it can. Homemade sex videos are somewhat better in terms of having fun and showing affection in action, although given the potential for abuse there (revenge porn, google it), “less problematic” doesn’t mean it’s NOT problematic.
/my radical socialist don’t-believe-in-“waves” feminist $.02 worth.
I admit, I was scratching my head over what Robert’s comment had to do with Jody’s comment. I mean, I understand that it triggered a memory, I just don’t understand what it had to do with the conversation.
I’m critical of het porn primarily because of the misogyny AND the way people seem to think it’s a training manual for sex. I mean, the positioning in these movies is designed to give the camera angles on something you wouldn’t normally see, so the idea that these are orgasm inducing poses (for the actors, not the viewers) is very problematic.
The ‘there’s always a feminized partner’ is definitely problematic, but then I haven’t heard that kinda crap in years (like, since the T got added to LGBTQ; the Q wasn’t even in the picture, lol). Am I hanging out with the wrong crowd?
@Kittehserf Thanks and yes hugs are welcome.
@David Thank as well. I did not think to give him baby food but I did start mixing tuna (his favorite) with his K/D renal diet food towards the end.
@Tracy Sorry for your loss too. Hugs if you want it.
On topic at hand, I don’t really have a stance on being against or for porn, but I think Emilygoddes, cassandrakitty and Bina said everything I would have said on that topic.
@Tracy & Myriad. So, so sorry for your losses.
Cracked.com had an article about this.
http://www.cracked.com/article_21339_5-reasons-being-male-porn-star-less-fun-than-it-looks.html
Not the most porn-critical, but it did make me wonder if any actors or actresses actually enjoyed their jobs.
Same here.
I find it pathetic that anyone would even float the whole “how else are we gonna learn to have sex?” thing (Jian Ghomeshi, I’m glaring at YOU) as an excuse for it all (when it’s not all Freeze Peach, all the time, grrrrr.) Gee, how did our cave-dwelling ancestors manage to do what it took to make more little cave-dwellers before someone twigged to the idea of painting wall portraits of cave-dwellers making cave boompsie? It’s like experimentation and communication don’t even exist for some people…
Having sex isn’t exactly rocket science, pretty sure that most people could figure it out themselves without an instruction manual.
Watching porn to learn how to have sex is like watching the Harlem Globe Trotters to learn how to play basketball. Porn and the Harlem Globe Trotters are about putting on a show, not teaching a skill. Watch either for visual enjoyment? Sure. Watch for instruction? We’re getting into a world of trouble here.
Sure, yet Kinbaku without a proper set of guidance pictures is really just asking for trouble.
Or watching movie kung fu in an attempt to learn how to do real kung fu. Sure, you could try, but I’d suggest putting down that spear before you put your own eye out, and also waving your arms around might look impressive but it’s not so good in terms of actually knocking someone on their ass.
Wait, you mean Bulletproof Monk wasn’t a documentary?? My illusions are shattered, lol.
I sort of agree? I mean, without decent sex ed, lots of kids get into trouble. The idea of people, many of them teens, looking for information and using porn, of all things, to get it is what I find troubling.
I’m about to ruin all your dreams. Rain, in Ninja Assassin? Super hot, yes, but not actually a ninja.