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#gamergate sarkeesian! whaaaaa?

Jordan Owen rants about Fifty Shades of Grey for fifty-two minutes … in a bathtub

This somewhat alarming video was recently posted in Reddit’s GamerGhazi subreddit. It features Sarkeesian Effect co-creator Jordan Owen explaining, at some length, his disagreements with antiporn feminist Gail Dines over the book Fifty Shades of Grey. (Dines, you see, was Owen’s previous obsession, before he discovered Anita Sarkeesian; this video is a couple of years old.) Alas, the sound cuts out about halfway through the nearly hour-long video, so you won’t get to hear the whole thing.

You might also be slightly distracted by the fact that Owen delivers this lengthy critique while sitting naked in a bathtub.

 

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thebewilderness
thebewilderness
5 years ago

How very inappropriate of us all for not knowing precisely where you were and what you were doing and simply taking you at your word, then assuming there was a relationship to what you quoted..

Fibinachi
5 years ago

And I will always admire Finibinachi too!

Of course you will. Soon, it’ll be mandatory.

thebewilderness
thebewilderness
5 years ago

Wait. It isn’t mandatory? Are you sure?

Robert
Robert
5 years ago

I do like how free everyone is here. Cassandrakitty and Fibininachi especially.

I am especially grateful that the privilege is extended to me.

Fibinachi
5 years ago

Two things.

Thank you 🙂

Secondly, Fi-n-ibinachi and Fibi-ni-nachi sounds like the kind of nonsense rhymes you’d add to an old timey folk song.

—–

Fi ni ni Fi ni ni fippitiy froop
we mock trolls and what they drop

Fibi ni ni fi ni ni
men’s rights and men’s fights and men’s sights
set sight on being blights on our nights
Tini-nini-ni dippitiy doo

Fibi likes the lot of you very much, very much too

Puddleglum
5 years ago

Lol, I meant to spellcheck, but well… I found alcohol.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
5 years ago

@ Puddleglum

Can I have some?

Puddleglum
5 years ago

Sadly, all I have left is Baileys left over from last december. Or maybe the december before that.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
5 years ago

Just for future reference, when porn-critical feminists talk about porn you can generally assume they mean the kind that requires naked people to get in front of a camera to make, on account of ink and/or keyboards not having labor rights to be abused.

(The one exception may be porn manga, but even then, probably not when it comes to someone like Dines.)

Robert
Robert
5 years ago

Cassandrakitty – that is good to know.

Fibinachi
5 years ago

Also, I guess I can see why it’d stick with you. It is a strange, strange comment to get on stuff you write yourself with words.

That’s… uhm. Huh.

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

The other problem with the argument for porn as instruction manual is that, well, that’s kind of the fucking problem. Suddenly women are expected to wax our genitals and bleach our anuses and anal sex has become an expectation rather than an option, and it’s not hard to figure out why. And the fact that it is overwhelmingly women feeling these effects is not lost on us. But the second you suggest that porn is a problem, you’re a sex-hating fundie who even other feminists will disavow.

This.

I really HATE the term “sex negative” when applied to feminists who criticize or outright reject porn, prostitution and the vast, ultra-capitalist industries that have grown up around them. And it is all too often slapped around like it’s going out of style (and gawd, how I wish it would.) There is all the difference in the world between hating sex, and hating the commodification of it, especially if the commodification takes the ugly forms that have become practically normal (and for a distressing number of inexperienced younger folks, they already ARE). Invariably, it’s the very young and usually females who bear the brunt of that.

Call me rebellious or call me an Old (or hell, both, because why not?), but I don’t hold that what porn portrays should ever be seen as “normal”, much less mandatory. I came of age when a porno video was something you had to rent from the seedy back room of some crappy video rental joint, so avoiding that shit and the horrible self-esteem-crushing that went with it was easy for me. It was something only total skeezeballs ever copped to doing. And no doubt that has colored my outlook a lot. I refuse to go along with just blindly being all “cool” about that, because it was never required of me when I was young and insecure, and now that I’m older and wiser, why mess with what works for me?

It used to be that hairless crotches were only for the prepubescent children; no adult would ever contemplate having one. Now they’re considered “clean”. Which, ironically, they are not; STD rates are markedly higher for those who’ve had their pubes totally denuded, because that additional layer of protection is gone, the skin is raw and irritated (and possibly microscopically broken), and medical experts are imploring people to stop with the scorched-earth nether regions already. I don’t care if my crotch gives my age away; I’d rather look “old” than be high maintenance, and prone to itchy rashes and nasty infections in the absolute worst places.

And when I first read about it in a sex-how-to pull-out in Cosmopolitan in the ’80s, anal sex was marked “For the Truly Daring” (and gradual, careful technique was scrupulously advised). Now, again, it’s practically de rigueur, and guys are being directed to “just shove it in”, which makes my irritable bowel churn just thinking about it. (And that’s not even counting the really awful stuff, like “rosebudding”. Google it if you like, but be warned, it’s the fucking worst.)

When did people who decided, quite reasonably, that something extreme and potentially dangerous is not for them, become “sex-negative prudes”? And why is that something to be ashamed of?

As for the “how to actually have sex” bit, I learned mine from books. And I occasionally write erotica, which is a markedly different creature from porn. The one leaves something to the imagination; the other doesn’t. Little wonder that porn wilts my ladyboner. I need to engage my grey matter, or nothing else is gonna even get lukewarm.

Robert
Robert
5 years ago

Bina -when the Butler Decision allowed Canadian customs officials to interdict pornography, their first publicized seizure of obscene material was the magazine Bad Attitude from Glad Day Books. A lesbian S&M publication being sold at a GLB* bookstore. The perception was that queer material was an easier target than straight material. Lesbian feminists who defended the magazine and bookstore described themselves as ‘sex positive’, those who supported the legal action by the Canadian government they described as ‘sex negative’. Those who supported the Butler Decision used different terminology.

*This was in 1982. The B was so new, it squeaked if you turned around too fast. The T was still to come.

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

The perception was that queer material was an easier target than straight material.

Yeah, I’m old enough to remember that, although I only learned about it maybe like five years later. And yes, straight material (even horribly nasty shit) did get a pass. Gay bathhouses were also being raided then, if memory serves. Straight people’s swinger orgies? Never heard of a single one. I would argue that this decision, and the general tenor of the times, had waaaaayyyyy more to do with homophobia than with a hatred of sex on the whole.

(Incidentally, the Cosmo sex pull-out came out in ’82, too…and was definitely NOT intercepted at the border, as I was able to get my teenage hands on it quite easily, secondhand.)

kittehserf - MOD
5 years ago

Bina – SO seconding everything you’ve written here. The little porn I’ve seen (snippets online, never a whole film) has bored me to tears. It’s a massive turn-off, and that’s before asking whether there’s coercion or trafficking involved. Sex being reduced to mechanics is bad enough – seeing a woman pounded by a bored-looking, gum-chewing man stays in my memory as a “how not to” of making something supposedly arousing. But the blatant misogyny of mainstream porn, of all those extreme, brutal, degrading acts, is foul even if the actors wanted to do it, which I frankly doubt. Porn, the sex industry in general, is inseparable from the abusive elements; they’re everywhere, they inform so much of it.

There’s another thing about the “oh you’re a prude” shit that gets me – the assumption that everyone is, or should be, whatever the opposite of a prude is in the speaker’s mind. That everyone should be leaping up and down and wanting to see sex stuff everywhere, or be mad keen on sex itself, or whatever. Just how is it any of their business to dictate someone’s feelings about something so intimate (physically and mentally)?

booburry
5 years ago

Reading these comments gave me a thought. Its pretty strange how feminists have no problem at all criticizing video games and other media for how they portray women but the same people will shut down any criticism of porn by calling you “sex negative” and leaving it at that. What happened to “we’re not trying to ban sexist video games, we just want better depictions of minorities” and why can’t they at least imagine that people can feel the same way about porn?
Then again, look at how the #groovygoaters reacted at people criticizing their precious video games. People are way more sensitive about their porn I would imagine and so a lot of people will have strong reactions and feel they are being judged, instead of realizing its just the porn that people are judging.
* I should be in bed right now so hopefully I make some sense to non-zombified persons.

booburry
5 years ago

Aaaand someone already said most of what I thought (better than me!). Sorry ya’ll.
I appreciate reading the discussion, anyhow. You’re right that any negative porn views get shut down entirely too swiftly in a lot of places, which sucks because a lot of people who are new to feminism might just decide that they should never question it lest they feel guilty about it.

kittehserf - MOD
5 years ago

No, I think it was worth saying that, booburry – I hadn’t thought of that strange disconnect between the criticism of sexism in video games and the reaction to criticism of porn.

Ire
Ire
5 years ago

>___>

I think Harriet J wrote about it in Fugitivus at some point, about how hard it is to be critical on porn without feeling guilty for your own desires. Like a lot of you said, the really big problem we have is when people start taking porn (and erotica) as manuals, when they are meant to be fantasies. How the lines blur…

And it bothers me because I’ve been thinking about writing erotica, since I’ve always enjoyed reading it so much, and while I don’t want to continue oppressive stereotypes, I also want to be able to write something that is sexy to me… and what is sexy to me has been informed and affected by the oppressive stereotypes… it’s a conundrum…

In a more cheerful note, the cat picture fest was awesome! Honestly it cheered me up this weekened to see all your kitties and hear all your stories about them.

My cat Eugenio is still not out of danger but at least he has survived the worst I think. He had an emergency surgery on Saturday night. It turns out he was detereorating so badly because his previous vets had neglected to properly close his bladder after taking out the bladder stone that was causing his infection. He had a urine leak and it was irritating his whole abdomen. His kidneys were doing so badly that new vet had to do a bunch of tests before she was sure Eugenio had a chance at surviving his surgery. I spent most of Saturday thinking he was going to die.

Fortunately, he made it and is on his way to recovery. When he comes back home, I’m trying out each and everyone of your suggestions for keeping him fed. I will never, ever allow him to get this weak again, for fear of giving him the wrong food.

Thank your for all your support.

booburry
5 years ago

I’m glad your kitty is doing better.

Myriad
Myriad
5 years ago

I am happy to hear Eugenio is doing better. I hope he makes a speedy recovery.

contrapangloss
5 years ago

WHOOT! The Kitty has pulled through! Good Eugenio!

I’m really glad your kitty is feeling better, and hope he recovers well.

emilygoddess - MOD
emilygoddess - MOD
5 years ago

#TeamEugenio

Ire
Ire
5 years ago

Eugenio died last night. I just got the call from my vet. He was brave and he was a fighter but it was finally too much. Thank you all for your kind words.

Puddleglum
5 years ago

I am so sorry Ire. Cyber hugs.

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

Awww, Eugenio. So sorry, Ire.

emilygoddess - MOD
emilygoddess - MOD
5 years ago

I’m so sorry for your loss, Ire.

pallygirl
pallygirl
5 years ago

Sorry to hear you lost Eugenio.

M. the Social Justice Ranger
M. the Social Justice Ranger
5 years ago

Oh no, I’m so sorry. =( Hugs if you want them. ♥

alaisvex
alaisvex
5 years ago

I’m so sorry to hear about eugenio! All the hugs that you need. 🙁

booburry
5 years ago

Thanks kittehserf, I always show up late to threads and find that everything I am thinking has been said. Too many smart people ’round these parts!

contrapangloss
5 years ago

Oh, no!

I’m so sorry for your loss. Poor kitten…

All the pillow hugs you need, sending now.

DJG
DJG
5 years ago

So very sorry about Eugenio.

*****

@ Robert – You had Bs in 1982? Wow, you were very advanced. In my neck of the woods, the question of B inclusion didn’t even arise until about 1986 or 1987. It definitely was not resolved until the 1990’s, and was a much lesser concern at the time than the finalizing of the decision that it was socially mandatory to say “lesbian and gay” instead of “gay and lesbian”. (I have no idea why some feminists now are occasionally saying “GLBTQ” and wonder when/how that started, but it keeps taking me back.)

I don’t know why, but I miss all those meetings. I gave up activism around the turn of the decade because I read a gaycon column complaining about organizations with quota systems requiring half-female and half-POC leadership/representation, only it seemed to me to be quite a good idea, and I resigned almost immediately.

grumpyoldnurse
grumpyoldnurse
5 years ago

Very sorry for your loss, Ire. Sending virtual hugs, if you want them.

Buttercup Q. Skullpants

So sorry to hear about Eugenio, Ire. 🙁 Sending you cyber hugs and lots of sympathy.

leftwingfox
5 years ago

My deepest sympathies and best wishes, Ire.

closetpuritan
5 years ago

Just for future reference, when porn-critical feminists talk about porn you can generally assume they mean the kind that requires naked people to get in front of a camera to make, on account of ink and/or keyboards not having labor rights to be abused.

Generally, yes. I think Robert was reacting in part to Gail Dines talking about the book Fifty Shades of Grey, though.

I do share the concerns about people who are first exploring their sexuality doing so largely through commercialized porn marketed to a male audience*, especially in the absence of sex education more thorough than what you can find even in “comprehensive” public school sex ed. I only have a sample size of two, but my experience is that consuming that sort of porn does influence what guys want.

Another problem I’ve heard about is that boys will think they have premature ejaculation when they don’t, because they’ve gotten unrealistic expectations from watching porn.

*Even getting a decent amount of exposure toward porn marketed toward a female audience might make some of the problems of “porn as sex ed” less severe.

Myriad
Myriad
5 years ago

I am so sorry to hear about Eugenio. Hugs and best wishes.

kittehserf
5 years ago

Ire, I am so sorry about Eugenio. Lots of hugs and sympathy.

closetpuritan
5 years ago

Ire, my condolences.

Michelle C Young
5 years ago

Oh, Ire, I’m so sorry for your loss.

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