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Five Reasons You Should Not Marry, or Date, or Probably Even Live in the Same City With a Fan of Return of Kings

The only appropriate reaction to a marriage proposal from a Return of Kings fan
The only appropriate reaction to a marriage proposal from a Return of Kings fan

So Return of Kings, which seems to be working hard at becoming the most abhorrent publication known to man, has a post up by regular contributor “strongsloth” titled 5 Lines That Potential Wives Cannot Cross — that is , five rules that Mr. Sloth thinks men should enforce with any woman they want to make their wife.

These rules are, naturally, horrific. So horrific, in fact, that they essentially provide us with Five Reasons You Should Not Marry, or Date, or Rent Apartments to, or Probably Even Live in the Same City With Anyone Who’s a Fan of Return of Kings.

So let’s go through them one by one. Do not date or marry a ROK fan because:

1) He will insist on being the supreme dictator.

[A]ll decisions about things outside the house are in your sphere. If she wants some responsibility, it’s ok if she chooses how to cook the eggs.

2) He will isolate you from your family and friends. You know, like abusers do.

Just make it clear that her family and friends from before are not important to you. Their opinions do not matter. Don’t spend a lot of time with them. … They will turn on you the moment there are problems between you and your wife. When that happens, the less influence they have the better.

3) He will get you pregnant in order to make you more dependent on him.

Contraceptives and abortion are murder

Why? Immediate children, more children, short gaps between children. These all increase her dependence on you and the loyalty that comes with it. …

If she is marriageable don’t be afraid to make her pregnant before marriage. There is nothing like a baby on the way to increase your bargaining power. … You are helping her by overcoming her female propensity to waste her fertile years on a career, bad boys, and antidepressants.

4) He will insist that you devote all of your time and attention to raising the children that result from his no-contraception or abortion decree.

He will do this in part because he doesn’t want to bother with the hassles of childrearing, and in part because forcing you to be a stay-at-home mother will allow him to restrict your life and control you more effectively:

Being a mother is a full-time job and her first priority. Any work, sport, church, or whatever that she can’t handle just has to go.

He’ll even insist on controlling how long you breastfeed the children:

Breast feeding is good for children and increases her bond with your children, so make her do it for one year. Then make her stop. Otherwise it might delay the next child and make her search for alternatives to being a wife and mother.

5) And last but certainly not least: Because he will rape you.

Under no circumstance can you accept the idea that she gets to choose if or when to satisfy you or choose to sabotage your joint fertility. …

You control the time and frequency of sex, not her. … [A] woman who will deny you sex early on will only use it to gain greater power over you in the long run. …

The obvious exception to this is the first time you have sex. Typically she will control the timing of that for obvious reasons. From the second time onward, any poorly-reasoned denial is a red flag.

Yeah, I’m pretty sure that’s not the real red flag here.

As strongsloth sees it, enforcing these rules will make it impossible for your future wife to ever “stray.”

Just imagine the situation. Wedding. Pregnant. Child born. Full time mother. No career. Breast feeding. Stop breast-feeding. Constant sex. Pregnant again. Repeat. There is little opportunity for her to get away from the children and her commitment to you, let alone consider alternatives to marriage. By the time the youngest child is in school her SMV [Sexual Market Value] relative to yours will have dropped, and you are safer.

You see what I was saying about how hard ROK is trying to become the worst publication in the world?

I couldn’t bring myself to look at the comments.

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Lea
Lea
5 years ago

schwadevivre,
I just started Raising Steam. 🙂

Leum
Leum
5 years ago

I think when we allude to the “Old Testament,” we’re hardly ever talking about the collection holistically. While there are properties of the Old Testament that are distinct from those the Tanakh, we’re generally invoking a few specific pieces of content, not the properties of an arrangement of texts. Generally when people used “Old Testament” as pejorative, they mean either “Genesis-style sexism,” “Leviticus-style legalism,” or “Joshua-style genocide.” I’d say that all those ideas are equally pertinent to the Tanakh and the Old Testament.

That makes sense, I apologize for derailing, I just get really geeky when stuff about the Bible comes up.

Robert
Robert
5 years ago

Leum – the Bible is a good inspiration for geekitude. Certainly better for that than as a guide for how to live your life.

Lea – fantabulosa bona! I just finished it and enjoyed it. I will say no more.

ParadoxicalIntention
ParadoxicalIntention
5 years ago

Oh. Holy. DIVINES.

[inappropriate stuff deleted –DF]

He doesn’t want a “wife”, he wants a sex toy who happens to make his semen into babies that he doesn’t have to care for, and cleans house and cooks him dinner. Women are obviously not people to him. His grasp of reality is long fucking gone.

And his grasp of bodily autonomy is shaky, at fucking best. “If she wants it and I don’t, she can wait because that makes her more loyal. If I want it and she doesn’t, then she’s a disobedient slut.”

I literally screamed in rage when reading this. I have never been more angry at a single thing on the internet IN. MY. LIFE.

1. FUCK YOU. I will “reject” you whenever I wish for you not to touch me. My body is MINE, dirtbag. And if you have a problem with that, I have the cure! It’s called “The door out of my life”. And I insist you take it immediately for the best effects.

So, please “next” me, because I don’t want your pathetic self anywhere near me.

2. No. WE make the decisions. Relationships and marriages are a TEAM EFFORT, not a “You do as I say or else.” situation. WE are the “decision maker”, all “decisions about things outside of the house” are in OUR sphere. I will not forfeit my career to give your fragile little ego asspats, thus I get a say in what we spend, because I will be bringing in some money as well. Suck it up, buttercup.

3. CONTRACEPTIVES AND ABORTIONS ARE NOT MURDER. SIT YOUR ASS DOWN.

Again, bodily autonomy. YOU are not carrying around our hypothetical children around for nine months, YOU are not breast feeding our fictional kids for a year, YOU are not doing anything for them biologically. So, you get a say in if we want kids, but I GET TO MAKE THE CHOICE AS I WILL BE THE ONE CARRYING THEM BECAUSE YOU ARE DOING ZERO PERCENT OF THE HEAVY LIFTING (Unless you want to adopt, but I’m willing to bet your fragile little male ego and your “plan” won’t allow you to, you absolutely rectangular shit-basket)

4. You WILL help raise our figurative children, and you will fucking like it. Fake incompetence, and I will simply make you try again until you’re a fucking natural. You want lots of kids? Better fucking practice changing those diapers, “honey”.

5. If you think my family/friends will appreciate you cutting me off from them, I have two uncles who would LOVE to take you off-roading somewhere in the California desert with lots of abandoned mineshafts, bub.

How will I find the chance to stray? Simple. I’m not enough of a doormat to let you whip me into submission with fifteen kids that you refuse to help with, no job, and you stripping me of all my independence and outside support, you abusive bag of lifeless, moldy hamburger.

*sigh* I need to go sit down. I nearly blew a gasket just reading this, and now I’ve hit that “wall” after all your adrenaline just pours out of you, and now I’m just tired and still really fucking angry that people like this get to exist.

Noadi
5 years ago

It’s likely that notions of the importance of female virginity probably came about when individual (rather than communal) land ownership for agriculture became more of the norm. That’s when people started to really accumulate wealth and pass it down through the family line. Restricting women’s sexual choices was a fucked up means to ensure paternity and religious justifications came later.

pallygirl
pallygirl
5 years ago

***TW below for relationship abuse***

@ParadoxicalIntention: speaking on behalf of myself, who was in three abusive relationships, abusers don’t come into a relationship with ABUSER shining above their heads in 3-foot high neon. The isolating and abusing ramps up slowly over time, so you don’t even notice your support networks are disappearing and that the abuse is getting worse. And all the time the abuser is convincing you that you’re the one with the problem, misreading situations, you’re the narcissist, you’ve got mental health issues, you’re the unloveable one.

Clearly I was a silly doormat who just brought it upon myself.

Is there any other victim blaming you would like to do?

Michelle C Young
5 years ago

Why? Why, why, WHY did I read the comments?

I have to put this in here, though. The astonishing lack of logic:

englishbob Mark Fox • 6 days ago
Worse.

Studies indicate that the appearance of your child is influenced by her previous sexual partners. You are not the only father to your child.
23 • Reply•Share ›
Avatar
91&^UP englishbob • 6 days ago
Hold up. Elaborate.
23 • Reply•Share ›
Avatar
virtus veritas 91&^UP • 6 days ago
Studied in fruit files, first alpha fucks change size of beta bucks child. Insect edition.
14 • Reply•Share ›
Avatar
Clark Kent virtus veritas • 6 days ago
I’ve never heard of this. Please enlighten me.

The mother stores some of the genetic material of the alpha for later use? It alters her own chromosomes somehow?
I don’t get it.
6 • Reply•Share ›
Avatar
doktorjeep Clark Kent • 5 days ago
Well, that’s interesting if true. I hope to see if any actual study is done on this.

There is a growing awareness of “epigenetics”. Your DNA responding and changing to the environment is basically what it’s all about. For example, why did the colonists in the original 13 US colonies end up with a different accent than their British forebears?

Things like that.

I’ve heard of men being compared to wolves by these guys, but now it’s fruit flies?

Also, genetics have nothing to do with accents. Ask any linguist. Gaaah.

And, of course, there is the standard argument that a man should marry a 17 year-old-girl, so he can properly train her, and she will be a virgin, and more likely to pair-bond, and less likely to take advantage of him, simply because she will not yet have learned to HIRE A LAWYER when she gets fed up and leaves.

Why??????

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
5 years ago

You should never read the comments. It is known.

Michelle C Young
5 years ago

I know nothing, Jon Snow.

nightofthelepus
nightofthelepus
5 years ago

I looked at the comments and saw #NoHymenNoDiamond and immediately wanted to burn down the internet.

thehappyfangirl
5 years ago

@pallygirl Thank you – the ‘doormat’ moniker is one that I put on myself for a while until therapy and time showed me that being indoctrinated to put others’ needs before my own might have made me more susceptible to abuse, but it took an abuser to see that as a trait to exploit.

pallygirl
pallygirl
5 years ago

@thehappyfangirl: the abuser chooses to abuse. It is NEVER the fault of the survivor.

Michelle C Young
5 years ago

the leader and protector of the family – in order to defend the family against destruction- should butcher any threats, foreign or domestic, ending in a murder suicide-spree with the neighbors and/or the cops.

I just noticed this.

“in order to defend the family against destruction”
“murder suicide-spree”

Ummmm, doesn’t that involve, I don’t know, DESTROYING THE FAMILY?!

Divorce breaks up the family, but everyone is still alive, to go on, and maybe even mend things. Some people are able to get back together after some time for growth apart, and make the marriage, and family, successful.

It’s really hard to start over after being, you know, MURDERED.

These jerks.

maistrechat
5 years ago

As far as I can tell, the “babby influenced by prior partners” thing came over from Stormfront as an argument about why you should never date anyone who has been in an interracial relationship.

If that’s not where they’re getting it from, they might want to take a good hard look at any “scientific” idea also espoused by Stormfront.

ParadoxicalIntention
ParadoxicalIntention
5 years ago

Pallygirl

***TW below for relationship abuse***

@ParadoxicalIntention: speaking on behalf of myself, who was in three abusive relationships, abusers don’t come into a relationship with ABUSER shining above their heads in 3-foot high neon. The isolating and abusing ramps up slowly over time, so you don’t even notice your support networks are disappearing and that the abuse is getting worse. And all the time the abuser is convincing you that you’re the one with the problem, misreading situations, you’re the narcissist, you’ve got mental health issues, you’re the unloveable one.

Clearly I was a silly doormat who just brought it upon myself.

Is there any other victim blaming you would like to do?

You do have me there. I apologize. I wrote most of what I said yesterday in anger, and, looking back, you were right. I was victim blaming, and I was wrong.

I should really stop having knee-jerk reactions to this kind of thing. I really just can’t stand this kind of bullshit, having lived through it myself (In a way. My stepfather was abusive as hell, and did many of these things not just to me, but to my mother.)

I am more than aware that abusers have the capacity for kind acts, and the tactics they use DO try to mess with their victim’s heads and make them think they’re all at fault, however what I said was thoughtless and I should have known better.

Sorry. : (

Newt
Newt
5 years ago

Also, using donotlink.com and excerpting from their shitty blog short-circuits their clickbait factor. So, not only are you exposing them…you’re not feeding them, either.

Depends what you’re worried about feeding them. donotlink prevents them gaining search engine popularity, and prevents linkbacks that could otherwise guide the hateful swarms back to here, but it doesn’t appear to stop the adverts, so you’re still adding to their revenue.

Some sites have gone further by mirroring whole articles, but when the original source is a mainstream newspaper like the DM, they can get the mirror shut down sharpish for copyright violation.

rjjspesh
5 years ago

“Just imagine the situation. Wedding. Pregnant. Child born. Full time mother. No career. Breast feeding. Stop breast-feeding. Constant sex. Pregnant again. Repeat. There is little opportunity for her to get away from the children and her commitment to you”

I wonder if these guys ever stop to wonder if they even want this situation? It actually sounds crap for all involved

Drdg
Drdg
5 years ago

As far as I can tell, the “babby influenced by prior partners” thing came over from Stormfront as an argument about why you should never date anyone who has been in an interracial relationship.

Oh my. I don`t know if it was mentioned here already, but they are talking about telegony. This idea have been very popular amongst neo-traditionalists in post-soviet countries for some years now, so I`ve come across it quite frequently. Some of them have even claimed that a condom doesn`t prevent from telegony, because it`s also a spiritual marker.

Amused
5 years ago

Just imagine the situation. Wedding. Pregnant. Child born. Full time mother. No career. Breast feeding. Stop breast-feeding. Constant sex. Pregnant again. Repeat.

Just imagine the aftermath. Divorce. Legal bills. Using your manly pickup truck as a long-term “temporary” residence. Lifetime alimony. A decade-plus of child-support for your brood of seven. Paying the mortgage on a residence you no longer have. Spending your evenings online complaining of the Feminist Conspiracy, White Knights, and Mangina Courts that are prejudiced against nice guys and model husbands an fathers like you. Purchasing a mail-order bride. Getting said mail-order bride to sign a hilariously unenforceable prenup. Trying to recruit other men to purchase mail-order brides. Trying to recruit other men to use hilariously unenforceable prenups. Second costly divorce. Prenup getting invalidated by a yummy written decision that the mail-order bride’s attorneys will frame and hang in their library for the amusement of posterity. Calling yourself an “activist”. Claiming men are the most persecuted gender in history. Blaming your ex-wives for the fact that your kids don’t want to have your last name. Sending death and rape threats to female bloggers. Complaining about “unfair” divorce laws forever.

There is little opportunity for her to get away from the children and her commitment to you

Ah, no. Whenever MRA’s and their “I’m not an MRA, but” sympathizers complain about costly divorces, I always offer the following advice (which, of course, they hate to hear): marry someone who is self-supporting and don’t have absurd numbers of children. Courts are actually increasingly reluctant to award alimony, even in cases of significant economic disparity between the ex-spouses. However, in cases where one of the spouse spends the marriage being a full-time nanny, housekeeper and secretary to the other, it is virtually guaranteed. And the older the spouse, the greater the chances that you will pay them until the day you die. As for child support, it’s the responsibility of both parents. When you use your spouse as a servant, when you knee-cap their career and use other methods in an attempt to keep them dependent on you, this is the risk you incur: serious back wages. In fact, the older the marriage, the more you need your homemaker spouse’s good graces to avoid getting taken for everything you’ve got. So either: be extra, super nice to your “dependent” ball-and-chain (don’t cheat, be super appreciative and pleasant, and buy her whatever she wants) or marry someone who can leave you (because if they can leave you, courts figure they don’t need your support after the marriage either). Or don’t marry at all, which in the case of this misogynistic douchebags, is the best option.

Lea
Lea
5 years ago

Stormfront as an argument about why you should never date anyone who has been in an interracial relationship.

0.0

0.o

o.0

>.<

Big Bill Haywood
5 years ago

Oh wow, he’s offering really old timey ideas about how to treat women! He must be a super-tough alpha! I’m really impressed! Oh…Wait…I’m not an utter moron. That being the case, this is laughable bullshit.

How much would you like to bet that the dipshit who wrote this article doesn’t actually live in this sort of relationship? The fact is that this…”man” is incredibly insecure and obviously inferior in the eyes of most women. And no, going to poor countries and using economic disaster to your advantage isn’t going to help find that “perfect” wife that lies there like a board and doesn’t criticize your extreme sexual inadequacy.

God-DAMN RoK has got to be one of the sorriest, pathetic sites I’ve ever seen. The first time I had the displeasure of seeing it, it was an article by a self-styled pickup artists talking about the virtues of Russian women. I live in Russia and about halfway through it was clear that this guy had probably never actually dated any Russian women in his life, or at least he never made it past dinner. I pointed this out and was banned, which in my experience tells me that the author knew he was busted. If he attempted to argue, I’d be able to expose him, ergo- ban. The saddest thing about RoK and the whole red pill crowd, is that they don’t realize that they aren’t fooling anybody except young, naive guys who are as socially awkward as they are. They are the adult equivalent of the 14-year-old boy telling us about his sexual conquest of girls who always seem to live out of state. Do they really think we don’t know?

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
5 years ago

Some of them have even claimed that a condom doesn`t prevent from telegony, because it`s also a spiritual marker.

I…um…what?

Jenny (@dontgiveah00t)

What scares me here is, what happens if someone who thinks like this marries a woman who is infertile or whose fertility is low? Imagine their frustration with a woman who can’t conceive when they expect her to (and who they may believe is secretly using contraception against their wishes), and imagine how they’d act on that for long enough without proof that their mighty seed is indeed mighty. That’s on top of all the other controlling and abuse that they’re suggesting. They’re not even being subtle about it – they flat out state that the whole purpose of isolating her from her friends and family, forbidding her a career and keeping her pregnant and barefoot in the kitchen is to ensure that she’ll have no options if she ever considers leaving (and they must know that leaving is what any woman forced to deal with this shyte would want to do).

mariec
mariec
5 years ago

I’m so glad I found this site, and maybe this isn’t the best place to leave the below comment, which has turned into quite the rambling, but it feels good to get it out.

I recently noticed my boyfriend reading some stuff online that sent up red flags, I admit I was looking over his shoulder. He’s not a big reader, so I was curious, not to mention with Christmas coming up I might get some clue as to what he’d like as a gift. He’s into a lot of tech stuff that I don’t know anything about and usually that is what I find him looking at, but apparently he’s also found his way into this disturbing subculture. I don’t know yet how seriously he’s taking this stuff, but he’s far more conservative/traditional in his values and outlook than I am. So, I’ve been researching, going to a lot of sites and reading a lot of stomach turning nonsense. It has been a deeply upsetting experience, and I’m scared. This is a good man, so what in the hell is going on? Having said that, let me backtrack and give a little of our relationship history. We’ve been dating for about two years now. He was previously married and divorced, and yes, he has baggage from that experience. I have my own baggage, but the divorce I went through was that of my parents. I moved into his place after about 7 months. He was going out of state to work, so when I moved in, I was helping to look after his house and pets, maintaining our relationship, and getting to live there rent free which was of course helpful to me. While he was away there was a lot of shit going on at my job, a job that I was already burnt out and unhappy with, and I quit. It was a big deal to me, I’d been there for over 8 years and made decent money, but I was also in staggering debt. I was still in esscense living paycheck to paycheck – paying my bills and not being able to put much of anything into savings, in crisis if some unexpected expense popped up. He was or seemed to be supportive of my descision to quit and was willing to help me out if need be, which turned out to be the case in the extreme. What I had planned on was having at least a seasonal/part time job to move into while looking for a replacement full time (with benefits) job. Unfortunately plans don’t always work out, and I ended up with no job. I went about 5 months total with no income. That time was broken up with a seasonal, factory, 3rd shift job which I worked for about 4 weeks before quitting, it was terrible, not like any job I’d had before, nor will again. I eventually landed more part time work, actually at one point three part time jobs at once (when it rains it pours). I whittled that back to one part time job that had full time potential. My awesome boyfriend took care of me, and supported me during this time (he was back home after 4 months). I, in return I did what I could – cooking, cleaning, things of that nature, and despite my gulit of being a “burden” (which is absolutley how I felt) he assured me he wasn’t doing anything he didn’t want to do and that sometimes people need help. When I had part time work I started to help with the grocery expenses. I still had bills to pay, but was only paying on what I had to have like my car loan, auto insurance, etc. I still needed help at times, and recieved that help from both him and my mother. I chose to file for bankruptcy, a hard decision, and not one he really agreed with, but supported nonetheless. Finally that part time job did turn into a full time job, and one with awesome benefits. Granted, I don’t make as much money, but I’ve finally got something worth while and room to grow and climb. I can now start covering all our grocery expenses, pay my part of the utilities, pay my bills, plus start putting a little back. I’m frustrated I can’t do more, I want to go even on everything and help with the house payment. I want to pay him back for his investment in me. The hard realization is that although I’m working (I have a job and an income again – woohoo!), things are good and getting better for me personally, I’m finding out that he may have been more satisfied with me in “housewife” mode. He likes the cooking and cleaning, who wouldn’t want someone doing that for you all the time, but I can’t mantain the same level as I could before fulltime employment. I commute, I work a full day, I get home, and I’m tired. I also don’t always get a “weekend”, my days off are frequently non-consecutive. I’m out of practice with having to maintain home and working life, and before all this I lived on my own, so if my apartment wasn’t clean no biggie. I know I need to use my time more efficientlly, and do my share, and not be as lazy as I’ve been of late. I’ve been lazy, but its not like we’re living in filth, and things go in cycles. Sometimes you’re really on top of things, sometimes you slack off, until you get all motivated again (not just with housework, but with everything, that’s life). There is always room in life for self improvement, it’s a good thing, but it’s also a lot of work. I guess what I’m trying to say is I’m not perfect, I’m flawed, and so is everyone else, man or woman, it’s not a gender thing, it’s a human thing. I don’t want to jump to any conclusions about what’s going on in his head, I’m just hoping he doesn’t buy into all this crap, because if that is the case, where do we go? Do I have to have two jobs, the one that I value and the “woman’s work” that he values to maintain our relationship? That doesn’t sit well with me. Will he be able to find fulfillment with me as I am? Some women are happy being housewives and stay-at-home moms, and there is nothing wrong with that, it’s their choice after all, but it’s never been something I’ve wanted and it’s not what I chose for my future. I know he and I have to talk, and we will, and then who knows. Wish me luck, I’m sure I’ll be on here again soon, thanks for listening!

mariec
mariec
5 years ago

We had a good talk which has proved to have a positive effect on the now. Although it has left me with a lot to consider regarding the future, still digesting…….

contrapangloss
5 years ago

Hey, mariec:

It sounds like you’re doing the right sorts of things. Talking to him seems like it was a good step in your case, and I’m glad it went well.

Whatever ends up happening, definitely wish you both well.

Welcome to the boards, btw! The scented candle is actually a link to the welcome package, if we start saying confusing things ’round here. 🙂

mariec
mariec
5 years ago

Thanks, for the welcome! However I’m not seeing the scented candle, am I missing something, lol 🙂

I’m dealing with a lot of conflicting feelings at the moment, but whatever I end up doing, whether I stay or go, I’ll make the best of it.

Thank you again for the welcome and well wishes.

contrapangloss
5 years ago

Welp, we can also share it this way! Have a Welcome Package!

Also, still hoping for all the best of luck for you and your situation. 🙂

mariec
mariec
5 years ago

We had a friendly debate last night about how some women dress “too sexy” at work, and how in sexual harressment cases women are favored in the workplace. WTF? We mostly butted heads.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

That sounds like a huge red flag to me. At best he thinks women deserve harassment and abuse. At worst he is a harasser and an abuser.

It’s not my place to tell you to dump him, but honestly, you should.

Puddleglum
5 years ago

I admit, I’d be leery of anyone parroting MRA stuff in real life. I don’t live in the most liberal of areas, but even the conservatives I know think that shit is pretty rancid.

I’m not sure if your partner is looking at that stuff because he’s already in the mindset, or if he’s feeling tremendously insecure and is looking for support, but either way, it’s definitely deserving the side-eye.

thebewilderness
5 years ago

One of the things to watch out for is when people avoid talking about the reasons they, or other men, do things and instead talk about the justifications for these things. There is an important difference between reasons and justifications. The reason men harass their coworkers is because they believe themselves entitled to do so. The way the women dress is the justification for the harassment. In other words, the first rule of misogyny. Women are responsible for what men do to them.

ceebarks
ceebarks
5 years ago

mariec, I’d tread very carefully. You sound like a smart person with a good handle on that, though. The bit about women deserving workplace harassment is really concerning. :/

I got into some of the “redpill” stuff awhile back b/c they are really good at seizing on some extremely common prejudices and insecurities so someone who’s going through a tough patch may think they’ve got the answers. There IS good info mixed in there, but the good parts are available, sans toxic garbage, elsewhere. Sad part is, if he’s really that attached to his worldview there’s really not much you can do to argue him out of it, as he may at some level see you as the enemy or as an inferior. :/ If he’s that far gone, nothing to do but go.

Take care of yourself out there!

mariec
mariec
5 years ago
Reply to  ceebarks

Thanks, we’ve had a few other debates since last I posted. In fairness, I didn’t really go into too much detail last time. He wasn’t so much upholding that harassment was an acceptable or justifiable way to behave, but rather that attire should be professional in the work place. I agree, but we have a difference of opinion of on where that line is drawn. He felt a woman should dress as she is “going to church”, no cleavage, skirts no shorter than knee length, nothing too tight. I feel that is too conservative given current fashion trends, especially if you hold a job in which dressing up and staying current is an asset (no pun intended, lol). I also think that while men’s fashion trends are different, many men are also expected to dress up and be well groomed in certain professions. Dressing “sexy” to move ahead in the work place based on the merit of your physical appearance alone is not a concept I agree with, but sure it happens. As does being overlooked or even frowned upon for dressing too conservatively, thus negatively impacting your success in the workplace. For me, this is a societal problem.

Where it comes to sexual harassment policies favoring women, I think he is being misled. His argument was that the system is abused by women who dress provocatively to get the attention of a certain male, and then view the attention of an unwanted male as sexual harassment. The issue being that if the desired male behaved similarly it would be welcomed. So said woman files a sexual harassment complaint because the wrong guy was looking at her, and now he’s in trouble at work, his reputation is soiled, etc. And that happens ALL the time? I’m sure it’s happened before, there are unscrupulous people out there in the world, but that doesn’t mean those policies shouldn’t be in place. Also, you don’t have to dress “sexy” to receive unwelcome attention, i.e. a baggy t-shirt, but he’s still staring blatantly at my chest.

I’m rambling again, sorry. I’m a terrible debater, I do much better addressing the issue a day or two later when I’ve had a chance to organize my thoughts. I realize that his beliefs aren’t going to be changed by anything I say. I believe he is susceptible to these ideas based on experiences related to him by close friends and work buddies, and also some of his own negative experiences from past relationships. I don’t want to make him out to be some kind of jerk because he is not. He is a very quiet and introverted individual, as am I. While I’ve never observed him in the workplace, I definitely don’t believe he would behave in such a manner toward a coworker. When we’ve talked about him visiting these sights, he acknowledges there is a lot of women-hating and nonsense, but maintains some of what he reads rings true and goes towards explaining internal issues he has long struggled with. I’m still trying to figure out exactly what he means by that. Any thoughts?

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
5 years ago

1. Women don’t file harassment complaints because someone just happened to be looking at them. If someone was to try it wouldn’t go anywhere.
2. Women, just like men, are allowed to enjoy sexual attention from some people but not from others.
3. Expressing the fact that you’re open to sexual attention from person A but from person B, no thanks, is not “unscrupulous”.

It’s the fact that your boyfriend seems to fundamentally not grasp issue number 2 that I’d be most concerned about. Men who don’t have a firm grip on that idea are dangerous.

thebewilderness
5 years ago

So given the choice between having a harassment policy that some women or men may abuse and having no harassment policy which some men or women may abuse, he prefers no policy. Since the majority of harassment in the workplace is men harassing women he is justifying the ongoing harassment of women to avoid the risk that a mans reputation be soiled. This is the song that the false rape allegation MRA d00dz sing. It is bullshit, but the “just so stories” tell the men what they want to hear.
The issue that we all have to struggle with is misogyny. The first rule of misogyny that we have to deconstruct is that women are responsible for what men do. Your boyfriend seems to be having a problem with this.
He seems to have such a low opinion of men that he does not think they can be expected to behave in a professional manner in the workplace unless the women they are attracted to disregard the office “uniform” and wear clothes that they read as saying no to them.
Does your boyfriend have any women friends? I am guessing that he does not think women and men can be friends because of his extremely low opinion of men.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
5 years ago

The only reason anyone should be expected to dress like they’re at church for work is if they work at a church. That’s another warning sign of a man who thinks that if men hurt women it’s the women who’re responsible for it.

I’d run away from this dude as fast as my legs could carry me, if it was me.

grumpyoldnurse
5 years ago

Dress like you’re at church’ doesn’t work for everyone. At work, I usually dress like I’m a direct patient care sort of nurse, at a hospital. When I’m at church (well, temple, actually) I wear baggy jeans and a nasty old sweat shirt that’s about 3 sizes too big. Conflating the two would be totes embarrassing! 😛

Seriously, though, I’m finding your boyfriend’s attitude disturbing. I’ve been harassed at work, and if anyone tried to blame it on what I was wearing, I’d accuse them of having some sort of unhealthy fetish for baggy clothes and sensible shoes. Seconding what cassandra and bewilderness said. People sexually harass others because the harassers feel entitled to the harassed in some way. Making excuses for harassment is a big red flag for me.

kittehserf - MOD
5 years ago

mariec, your boyfriend also seems to miss the point that sexual harassment is unwanted and persistent. It’s not just “looking at someone,” it’s a power play and part of the whole spectrum of sexual assault. It also happens to men – has he even considered that? What sexy sexy clothes were those guys wearing, hmmm?

Harassment has nothing to do with what the person’s wearing. Saying so is just blaming the victim, and it’s the same thinking (if it can be dignified with such a term) as blaming rape victims for actions that are entirely the choice of the rapist.

I’m with the others here: this man’s sending up huge red flags and I would not entrust my safety to someone who’s in the “she asked for it” camp.

mariec
mariec
5 years ago

I really appreciate all the input. Currently, I’m keeping an open line of communication with my boyfriend, we are certainly discussing and sometimes debating these ideas. I hope that I have not given a terrible impression of him. His actions, what I’ve witnessed and especially in regards to our relationship, do not correlate with the beliefs espoused by the MRA & MGTOW groups – pun intended 🙂 Have no fear, I will stop trying to work through this and part ways with him if that ever should become the case.

grumpyoldnurse
5 years ago

Whatever happens in this relationship, I just hope that you stay happy and safe! 🙂

Ryan Sample
5 years ago

This is beyond impossibly stupid. How the hell does Roosh V sleep at night!?

Lolita_Merz
Lolita_Merz
4 years ago

loooooooooooooooooooooooooooool sex market ends when her kids are at school? You’re either totally ignorant, or never met any women in your whole life, or just a 12 year old day dreaming in his skid marked panties.

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