So that was A Voice for Men founder Paul Elam’s response to a recent post of mine talking about Christopher Cantwell, an AVFM contributor who also likes to tell people to kill themselves.
In an AVFM post also titled David Futrelle: Please kill yourself, Elam waxed eloquent upon this theme:
David, please go kill yourself.
You should, however, before you slip away into the dark void that resembles your capacity for logic, consider that you may want to get out more. A lot more, actually.
“Please kill yourself,” in the context of Twitter and a lot of other internet exchanges is par for the course.
That is sadly true, Paul. I see that as a problem; you apparently see it as an excuse for the harassment and abuse you and your followers so enjoy heaping upon your opponents in the name of “Men’s Human Rights.”
Apparently, in Elam’s world, the best way to fight male suicide is by telling other men to kill themselves.
Oh, but one of Elam’s fans has an answer to that, too:
Human rights advocates at work!
I would like to cross-post something I put on Facebook here. I happened to see this exchange on Twitter as it occurred, and it made me rethink some jokes I’ve made in the past. I’ll preface this by saying that I have dealt with suicidal depression, and am still dealing with it.
In the past, I’ve made a lot of jokes about how someone should kill him or herself. In fact, back when I was posting at CHUD (note: a movie themed discussion forum), that was practically my main gimmick. Literally, I would respond to a lot of dumb posts with “I recommend suicide™!” People laughed, good times, etcetera.
But that’s really not cool or funny. I never “meant it”, I mean, I was never actually saying someone SHOULD commit suicide, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s a cruel and callous thing to say. I regret it, every single instance, and there were a lot of them.
I regret it not just because I’ve felt like I’ve personally been on that brink before, but because it’s just shitty. It’s just a shitty, shitty thing to say to anyone, no matter what your political/social standing is, and no matter what your target’s state is. It’s just plain shitty and dumb and flat-out mean to say something like that to another person.
It’s hurtful in a way that normal insults really aren’t. I mean, tell someone they should eat shit, that’s kinda fine? Nobody wants to eat shit, and it’s very unlikely that the eating of shit will happen, and it gets your point across.
But you never REALLY know just who you’re talking to on the other end of the screen. Telling someone that they should kill themselves, I really just can’t think of a much worse thing to say to a person right now, especially one you don’t know, and especially over something so stupid as a post they made about a movie, or a game, or an album, or really just anything.
I regret that part of my past, very deeply, and I know some of you will remember it and maybe think that it was funny at the time. It wasn’t. I was wrong, every single time I made that joke, I was wrong to do so.
I am deeply sorry for that and understand that I made a bad, hurtful choice every time I made that joke. It’s not funny, and it’s not something I want to associate with myself ever again.
I’m loathe to tell anyone to kill themselves but I wouldn’t mind if Paul Elam went and froze himself in carbonite for the next thousand years.
Far’s I’m concerned, he can go hump a cactus.
I am going to use “a lap mule” for Paul from now on.
My god, if being a “real male” involves being anything like this shower of cretins, then telling people they’re not real males is one of the greatest compliments that I can imagine.
It’s astonishing that he really has no idea that the way that it’s normal for people telling each other to go and kill themselves on Twitter is… kind of a problem.
@chaltab, I think sadly he’d soon reappear in our time through a Terminator-style time bubble back from the future, with a note tied round his wrist saying “Unwanted – please return to sender”.
Shut up, Woody.
There, I fixed it.
Dang, what the everlasting effing eff is wrong with those people?
What Paul Elam and his ilk know about being a dude is best exemplified by having it spelled backwards as his last name. Fundamental and important to him, but he gets everything about it wrong.
@lea: “2. Some people’s arguments are so dumb and so disgusting that “Go fuck yourself” is a perfectly rational response…”
I agree. Although it is fun to be police about it, as in, “It would be wonder if you could please fuck off and die.”
Yes we do. We less than three you so much, David.
The comments on that Voice for Men post are kind of funny. For one thing, Paul writes:
Sorry, I want to un-monster that blockquote:
The comments on that Voice for Men post are kind of funny. For one thing, Paul writes:
O RLY?
Also, a couple of comments disagree with what Paul has written, and we all know how well he takes it when that happens.
And Dean Esmay is his usual hyperbolic self.
Mizuki,
We have a running gag at our house where we say rude things to each other (jokingly, of course.) but either preface it with “No offence” or “With all due respect”.
I don’t know why we find that so entertaining, but we do.
Lea:
It’s not surprising. These are the same folks who dream of a post apocalyptic world where laws no longer have meaning. Once everybody is acting horrible, they can totally do all the things silly things like “laws” and :”social etiquette” are keeping them from doing.
…that Raw Story article is just sort of hilarious.
And, yes, everyone, it is not edgy or funny to tell people to kill themselves. We’re not in seventh grade. It wasn’t cool then, stop doing it. Besides, just because people do it, does that mean we should keep doing it? It’s sort how we evolve as a society: ‘Hey that thing we used to do is stupid/shitty, let’s not do it anymore and try something better instead!’
I mean, how does this guy think anyone outside of his bubble takes him? If a prominent member of a non profit was telling people to kill themselves, I would be like ‘NOPE’. It’s like he’s emotionally thirteen. And a jackass.
“Men’s rights”… for whomever they consider “real” men…
Which leads me to wonder… do “fake/false men” exist? Is it possible to be and not be at all at the same time? Schrödinger’s cat much? Uhm…
It seems like, for some people, “manhood” is lost so easily as if it were not a sexual identity at all. However, as far as I know, an identity is something that never changes about a person. It remains immutable through life.
So how can it be lost? How can an identity “not be” overnight? Because someone says so?
@Brad
I’ve also battled with suicide and depression for years, and I can now say that it’s been my first year in which I actually didn’t want to die.
I *kinda* experienced something similar to you… but from the other side, and in a much more personal way.
I was harassed and “ordered” to die on online forums (and later on the phone) being told to die at least once a week, for several months. It was persistant and it seemed never ending. I couldn’t get away no matter how much I tried… they’d find my new emails, new phone numbers, new social networks accounts, anything I tried.
This happened almost 6 years ago.
The thing is… those people knew me and they knew of my suicidal tendencies. They knew I had already survived an attempt before…
They knew exactly what they were doing. And they enjoyed it all. Furthermore, they eventually succedeed and drove me to the abyss, again.
They were proud of it.
I survived and was even able to see how they were hoping I was actually dead and stayed that way, speaking of “theories” and even fantasizing about my death.
I didn’t intervene, I just vanished. I hope those people can recover from their own cruelty and sadism. I hope they grow and they get to be better some day. I hope it never happens to them or anyone they love.
(By the way, those were not kids. They were all adults, some younger, some not.)
I have no idea about Futrelle, so I won’t even try to compare the situations. The thing is… being told to die has a concequence on your mind. Even more if you’re told the same thing constantly, over and over again.
At first you get mad and think they’re jack@sses (which they are, undeniably), but then you may start to wonder “what’s wrong with me? do I really provoke such hate on people?” (or maybe I just have an oversensitive personality).
I think you’re provoking a much-needed positive change, if you ask me.
However, it’s neither meaningless nor hurtless, even if it’s a stranger, or a particular @sshole stranger. It can affect you and your attitude. You end up feeling angry and defensive, and you don’t even know why, so you get confused and feel guilty when you respond in defensive ways to people that actually mean no harm at all.
Futrelle, I think I did it already but I’ll just do it again because it feels good: THANK YOU!!! (And sorry for those caps) You site has helped me realize I’m not alone, and you (and the other mods too) have built a cozy community. There’s people out there who need it (me included), to help us stand against the everyday hate, which now is translated to the Internet.
@Lea
This is completely unrelated but I couldn’t help it…
You reminded me a lot of Ondolemar (a character from Skyrim) when he says:
“It’s only a matter of time before your whole rotten Empire collapses of its own decay. No offense.”
He’s such a sweetheart XD He has a lot of lines like those.
Of course. Because everybody knows that skunks and farts no longer stink when your nose gets accustomed to bad smells!
Mate, I guess sir Elam is showing his true colors, I respect you David, you are a good gentleman in my book.
Brad,
I know how you feel. I never even thought of “Oh, go die in a fire” as anything other than a joke that was so outlandish that it wouldn’t REALLY hurt anyone, until I got to know a couple who had lost their children in a fire.
I choke on the words now. They mean something else to me because I know what they could mean to other people. I know how they would feel to me had fate played me a different hand.
I’ve been a thoughtless person. The empathy part of my brain was not fully engaged and I have a sneaking suspicion that it still malfunctions plenty. I see myself and other people a little clearer now. I hope I’m getting better. All good intentions aside, I still get called out and I still deserve it.
We’re works in progress, building ourselves into who we want to be. I don’t know that we ever get there though. I don’t think the process stops until we do. 😉
So, I’m going to go out on a limb and conclude that Elam does not, in fact, care deeply about male suicide rates.
Also, really, MRAs, seriously. Using “not a real man” as an insult hurts men. It reenforces the weird insecurity that men are inculcated with by society to try and live up to some narrow, shifting, impossible, and often harmful ideal of manliness. This is part of why men have trouble asking for psychological help when they feel suicidal–that’s weak and “unmanly.” I don’t think you have to be a feminist to agree with this. Please. Actually help men. Stop.
@zoon echon logon:
You say this like it’s not what Elam’s posse strives for.
This seems relevant to our interests:
I’m sorry he said that to you. That’s terrible. Sending virtual positivity and happy thoughts your way