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Is the Men's Rights Movement driven by the rage of the rejected?

Memorial in Marysville
Memorial in Marysville

Was Marysville school shooter Jaylen Fryberg trying to exact revenge on a girl who had rejected him? Various news accounts suggest that Fryberg was reeling from a recent breakup; a number of angry, anguished, and frustratingly enigmatic recent comments on Fryberg’s Twitter account seem to back this up.

So it may be that the shootings on Friday were yet another reworking of an old story.

It’s no secret that many men, for an assortment of reasons, react badly and often violently to romantic and sexual rejection. This can range from self-described “nice guys” of OkCupid sending vicious messages to women who say no all the way to angry men who stalk and harass and sometimes kill ex-wives and girlfriends. Women who leave abusive relationships often suffer greater violence at the hands of exes unwilling to let them go.

I’ve written before of the striking ways that Men’s Rights Activism recapitulates the logic of domestic abuse; it’s no coincidence that so much MRA “activism” consists of harassment of individual women. So the question naturally follows: does the rage that drives so many MRAs come from the same dark place in the psyche as the rage that so many romantically and sexually rejected feel towards their exes?

Think of the fury many divorced MRAs feel towards their exes and women at large. Think of the self-pitying rage of “nice guys” MRAs in their teens and twenties who feel they’ve been unfairly “friendzoned” by stuck-up women.

As I pondered the tragedy in Marysville, I found myself thinking again about a disturbing short story written by A Voice for Men’s Paul Elam several years ago (and which I posted about recently).

In the story, you may recall, a jilted husband tells the other men in an anger management group session just what had landed him there. His story, as rendered by Elam, is a melodramatic and often mawkish tale of a man betrayed by a narcissistic “hypergamous” wife who left him for his business partner while he had been out of town at the funeral for his father. Oh, and she stole all his money, to boot. (Elam is not what you’d call a subtle writer.)

When the story’s hero finally confronts his ex, whom he finds ad his business partner’s house, she comes to the door in a nightie and tells him she left him because he just wasn’t cutting it in the sack. Then she makes a point of refusing to kiss him goodnight (and goodbye) because, she tells him sadistically, he probably wouldn’t like “the taste of another man’s cock on her lips.”

And so, the hero tells the other angry men in his group, he punched her in the nose so hard he broke it.

It’s clear Elam identifies wholly and completely with the hero, and we are supposed to see his punch as a form of righteous justice administered to his sadistic, emasculating ex.

There are a lot of angry divorced men in the MRM – including some with several divorces in their past. The standard MRA explanation is that these men come to the Men’s Rights movement after being “raped” — their word, not mine – in divorce court, or kept apart from their children by angry exes.

But I don’t think that’s it. Many of the angriest don’t even have any children. I suspect that the rage they feel is more like the rage of Elam’s hero – a rage borne out of a deep sense of sexual humiliation and the loss of control over the women who have rejected and abandoned them.

The anger of many younger MRAs seems to have a similar psychosexual source. These are the young men who rage against “friendzoning” and wax indignant about “false rape accusations” and “yes means yes.” In their mind, women are the “gatekeepers” of sex, and this frustrates and sometimes enrages them.

On some level they feel that women are collectively depriving them of the sex that they deserve, and they feel resentful they have to, in their mind at least, jump through so many hoops to get it. Some, I suspect, think that there’s no way they can actually “get” sex without cutting a few corners, consent-wise, and resent feminists for making this harder for them.

The self-righteous rage of the rejected is a dangerous thing. It’s dangerous when it’s directed at individual women. And it’s dangerous when it’s directed at women at large.

 

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Bina
Bina
6 years ago

Seahorses! I shall now think only happy thoughts for the rest of the night…

Fibinachi
6 years ago

But I don’t think that’s it. Many of the angriest don’t even have any children. I suspect that the rage they feel is more like the rage of Elam’s hero – a rage borne out of a deep sense of sexual humiliation and the loss of control over the women who have rejected and abandoned them.

The anger of many younger MRAs seems to have a similar psychosexual source. These are the young men who rage against “friendzoning” and wax indignant about “false rape accusations” and “yes means yes.” In their mind, women are the “gatekeepers” of sex, and this frustrates and sometimes enrages them.

On some level they feel that women are collectively depriving them of the sex that they deserve, and they feel resentful they have to, in their mind at least, jump through so many hoops to get it. Some, I suspect, think that there’s no way they can actually “get” sex without cutting a few corners, consent-wise, and resent feminists for making this harder for them.

[From OP]

I think this is more on point than most anything else. I’ve given this a bit of thought, so I’m going to do something I do rarely – try a concise, reasonable post that makes sense.

I’m not sure that most MRA sentiment is about rejection as much as it’s about aggrevied pride.

The rejection of women isn’t neccesarily the point. Feeling that what they offer isn’t accepted is more a symptom of their anger than the cause, I think. The mental flip isn’t that “Why don’t these women love me?” it’s “Why do these women make such bad choices?“.

In the “real world”, the one not corrupted by feminism and socialist marxism and liberalist fools and blue pill betas, women would be making the right choice of spending their time dating these people. They’d give them attention, sexual availability and presence. All this “Progressive” stuff is an aberation that’s twisting the “real world” into a dystopic hellscape. See hypergamy, socialism, “The Decline”, dark enlightenment and so on.

A lot of red pill stuff is about how all of culture lies to you to keep you in a subordinate position reliant on women. It’s a neat hijack of the old “Opiate of the masses” conversation, so instead of “capitalism” or “Socialism” or “the king” it’s “evil women who don’t want you to know how the world actually works”. So what you get is people who make that claim, then try to set out to A) prove it and B) repeat it a lot to other people to mark up their point, while censoring everyone else because everyone else is ideologically compromised. Hence the “Never ask a woman what she wants” and “Feminist always lie”; it’s not that these people can’t say useful stuff, it’s that these people are literally the enemy who are out to destroy you.

They aren’t being rejected by other people. They’re being denied by unthinking herd-drones of a monolithic culture that censors them for “being men” and wants to “Destroy masculinity (and monogamy and culture and western society and the family)”.

Which is why when trolls show up here (or on Reddit) and make claims that women never worked in mines, never did real jobs, should be in the kitchen, all men want sex, and women only go for bad boys, they get angry or confused when someone contradicts them. Because we’re obviously lying, right? We’re clearly only putting on a polite facade to maintain the affinity of our feminist peers, and if we were really real people, we wouldn’t actually care about “intersectionality” or “racism” or “income inequality” or anything else.

And because they refuse to acknowledge the validity of these concepts, and think on how their actions impact the lives of others, they get angry and confused when they get rejected. In their mind, they’ve done nothing wrong, because they aren’t wrong, so the rest of the world is clearly out to cheat them.

Also, when norms change and things become different, and people actually start talking about priviledge or power differentials or how some women want sex and some don’t and how men don’t have to be X or Y or Z, these people feel like something is being taken away from them. Because they tend to identify with a very limited set of actions and acceptable definitions.

Name me one guide to being an alpha that doesn’t mean testosterone or “Going to the gym to get jacked, ’cause that’s what men do!”.

In order for someone to be upset by being rejected, they have to consider that those who reject them are capable of doing so.When people reject MRA’s, the MRAs get angry. There’s that old Heartise post about the viceral gut level loathing and distaste he feels when looking at happy couples in the park?

They aren’t angry people being rejected by women, they’re angry people being denied access to a pivotal part of their assumed right, and they get angry because who the fuck are these fucking feminists to tell them they can’t have X or Y or Z?

It’s not rejection, it’s aggrived pride.

( In my opinion, anyhow)

titianblue
titianblue
6 years ago

@WWTH

Re UK abortions, yes, it’s really just a formality. It’s pretty hard to argue that a woman’s mental and physical health wouldn’t be more at risk if she is forced to carry to term.

And yes, for Irish women who can afford to, we’re a place to come and have the needed abortion. There are a number of charities supporting them.

The death of Savita Halappanavar hit a lot of UK women hard.

GrumpyOldMan
6 years ago

@Fibi: I think the logic is fairly easy to figure out.

(1) All Real Men(TM) are irresistibly attractive to women and entitled to their sexual favors.
(2) I am a Real Man(TM).
Therefore, I am irresistibly attractive to women and entitled to their sexual favors.

Oh, but clearly the women aren’t finding me irresistibly attractive and showering me with their sexual favors. What could be wrong? Since I know that (1) is unquestionably true, it can only mean that there is some evil conspiracy which is depriving me of what I am clearly entitled to. (Remember that “entitled” means that I deserve it just for being what I am.) But what if it is (2) that is wrong? What if the reason that women are not showering me with their sexual favors is that I am not good enough at being a Real Man(TM), a beta rather than an alpha? No, no, no, I cannot accept that thought (though it will always remain as a hobgoblin to seep into my thoughts in unguarded moments). So, yes, it must be a perverse, wicked conspiracy which is leading all these women astray — and now they even want to deprive me of my beloved pixelated boobs.
Most people who have some understanding of how the world works realize that (1) is wrong, even ludicrously so. It seems to me that most of the greater MRA world buys into (1) rather strongly, and that sense of entitlement enhanced by the hidden fear that they are not really good at being Real Men(TM), causes them to buy into the evil conspiracy (i.e., wicked feminism) theory.

Jenny (@dontgiveah00t)

@fibinachi, @GrumpyOldMan, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head.

Besides, isn’t it weird how these people always seem to be the same ones who moan about stuff like ‘everyone gets a trophy just for existing these days!’ and ‘women expect respect just for existing, the fiends!’ when they themselves seem to see the respect and affection of a hot, subservient woman who ‘knows her place’ as something they’re entitled to just because. And since women won’t give them that, they’re bitches and whores and there’s a great big matriarchal conspiracy to prevent them from getting what they’re owed.

John Allman
6 years ago

@ Shaun DarthBatman Day

“feminism really isn’t about men at all”

Define “about”, please.

You see, my experience of feminism so far has been entirely of women complaining about men, or at least about phenomena for which men are blamed. Apart from complaining about men (including the phenomena for which are blamed), I haven’t yet witnessed anything else at all that feminism involves.

Is women complaining about men something that is “about” the *women* doing the complaining (and therefore not at all “about” the men)? Or is women complaining “about” men actually “about” the men about whom the women are complaining? We trolls need to know what you mean by the word “about”, simply to become able do a reality check on your claim that “feminism really isn’t about men at all”. Might you be able please to femsplain that to us what the word “about” means, in femspeak?

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
6 years ago

What are you still doing here? Don’t you have some hydrants to piss on or something?

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

I hope John keeps whatever promises he may have made to the court better than he keeps the promise he made to us that he was going to go away.

Go away, John.

thebewilderness
thebewilderness
6 years ago

He is just JAQing off now, wanker.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Maybe the mods should help him out with that whole pissing off thing he isn’t very good at.

GrumpyOldMan
6 years ago

John, your visits here have made us understand very well why your ex won’t let you mentally abuse you son. You DO understand that you’re getting exactly as far with us as you did with her, and for the same reasons. What part of “bugger off” do you not understand?

thebewilderness
thebewilderness
6 years ago

John, you are on a thread about Zoe and Gia, both of whom are children, being dead at the hands of a guy who claimed to be their friend. This is neither the time nor the place to reduce objecting to the murder of our children to “women complaining about men”.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

I think that the part where other people don’t have to do what he wants is the bit John is struggling with.

M. the Social Justice Ranger
M. the Social Justice Ranger
6 years ago

Go away. Bugger off. Piss off. Shoo. Scram. Skedaddle. Leave. Vamoose. Beat it. Get out of here. Be off with you. Fuck the hell off.

You seem to have a problem with words, but you should know what at least one of those means, right?

sparky
sparky
6 years ago

You see, my experience of feminism so far has been entirely of women complaining about men,

And, as we all know, Johnny’s experiences with things are objective, universal truths.

samantha
6 years ago
Reply to  John Allman

You see, my experience of feminism so far has been entirely of women complaining about men, or at least about phenomena for which men are blamed. Apart from complaining about men (including the phenomena for which are blamed), I haven’t yet witnessed anything else at all that feminism involves.

Forgive me for jumping in, but what you say you have experienced about feminism does not jibe with anything I or anyone I know to be what feminism is about.

You say all we do is complain about and blame men. That I find particularly funny, since feminist women and men have been working together for almost sixty years (in this wave) to end war, create equality in the home and the workplace, find real world solutions to the problems of poverty and the despair and crime that accompany it, create safe places for victims of domestic violence and counsel those, female and male, who have been raped. And those are just for starters. The modern environmental movement grew out of feminism and is supported by feminists. And women even agitated to be included in the draft, if it should ever be re-instated, because many of us feel that it is unfair to ask only men to risk their lives in times of war, which we would rather their not be. An early feminist poster protesting the Vietnam war had a picture of a lovely young woman saying “Girls say yes to boys who say no.” I really liked that one.

You either have some peculiar ideas about feminism or feminists in the UK come from another planet. We have not always been as successful as we would like, but we, women and men, do try.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

I think it might be time for a troll challenge. John has to make 5 consecutive posts in a row that don’t contain any anecdata about his experiences. 5 posts that can’t be about him. Think he can do it? I don’t.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
6 years ago

Wow. Every time I think that John has reached the bottom of his barrel of toxic personality, he proves me wrong by going lower.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

Fellow mammotheers, it’s totally unfair for any of us to ask John to spend 5 minutes on Google. That’s misandry! We must give him several days in which he can bore with us with a hundred teal deers first!

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Can someone please just mod the evil bastard out of existence? He’s never going to go away on his own.

Which is probably part of the reason why he’s not allowed to see his son.

Fibinachi
6 years ago

… If the phenomena I can blame on men is among others stuff like “denies me access to education”, “wants me to do nothing but raises babies” and “Assume my choices of clothing or interaction are theirs to decide”, my complaints about men is pretty warantes :b

@Jenny, GrumpyOldMan,

Yep. Also, Paul Elam’s story there isn’t about rejection (it was the characters wife, yeah?). It’s about the lack of control and the ceding of power over an object to another entity, which is embarrasing and shameful, a mark against the character in the eyes of the other men world.

His property didn’t reject him, his property rebelled against the rightfum order of things.

sarahrocco
6 years ago

LOL he thinks it’s nasty here, that’s adorable. *pats John’s lil head* Dear boy, if it’s nasty here, you’ve had a remarkably sheltered life. Consider me surprised. No really, I’m deeply surprised.

Bring those numbers whenever you please, there’s no time limit at all. I’ll give you the rest of your life to find them. But please, don’t come back until you do.

GrumpyOldMan
6 years ago

” How nastier could this mob make things for me than they already are?”

Not nasty enough, apparently, so far. We must all try harder.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

I can do that.

John, you look like a vampire bureaucrat. Are you in fact one of the undead, or is it just your tedious personality that helps to give that impression?

GrumpyOldMan
6 years ago

“His property didn’t reject him, his property rebelled against the rightful order of things.”

When a woman rejects you, you can always say to yourself, “B!tch doesn’t know what she’s missing.’ When your wife dumps you, that bit of consolation isn’t available.

Fibinachi
6 years ago

Woah woah woah.
Woah.

As a representative of the unliving I must on the strongest terms protest this besmirchment if our good name.

The habitual oppression of the vitality-challenged has gone on for quite too long! And further, just because I happen to be landed gentry with an interest in the linages of my prefered beverages pre-deceased human acquantinces does not make me an undead beaucrat.

I’ll have you know my position in the civil service is considerably above menial

Fibinachi
6 years ago

Woah woah woah.
Woah.

As a representative of the unliving I must on the strongest terms protest this besmirchment if our good name.

The habitual oppression of the vitality-challenged has gone on for quite too long! And further, just because I happen to be landed gentry with an interest in the linages of my prefered beverages pre-deceased human acquantinces does not make me an undead beaucrat.

I’ll have you know my position in the civil service is considerably above menial paperpushing. Age does have its priviledges.

sparky
sparky
6 years ago

John Allman:

My argument doesn’t rest upon that “claim” of mine that you have challenged me to prove. My argument rests upon the fact that the mere perception (even if this is mistaken) of gender bias in the family law system, recruits men and women who are not themselves in the least misogynistic, or driven by the rage of the rejected, into the MRM.

Woah. Wait. So what you’re saying here is that the people who are drawn to the MRM aren’t drawn to it because of any actual injustice that actually exists? But to a “perception” – a “perception” that just happens to line up with prevalent cultural stereotypes about gender roles and “evil man-hating feminists” out to destroy society?

Um, yes? The MRMs beliefs are not based on reality. The MRM is full of raging misogynists. Yes, this is all true.

What was your point again? Did you ever actually have a point?

sarahrocco
6 years ago

@sparky, are they becoming aware?!

grumpyoldnurse
6 years ago

The goal posts, they move so quickly! And I thought hockey was fast! John, you really could teach the NHL a few tricks.

kittehserf - MOD
6 years ago

Hey John Allman, you’ve been asked to go, repeatedly. Do you trespass in other people’s homes? Gatecrash parties? You’re doing that here. You’re not wanted. I’m going to ask David to moderate or ban you, and delete your posts as they come up in the meantime.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
6 years ago

@John:

The only possible “red flag” is that it challenges any entrenched notion in which people are emotionally invested, that alienation is a type of abuse that men inflict upon women, but not vice versa.

You have a very limited imagination.

“Alienation,” in my experience, is one of the key complaints of the emotional abuser who feels their targets are getting away. I have a limited personal experience with this; back when I was dealing with depression, the father who described our familial relationship as that of an employer/employee sat down in front of a therapist and complained that he felt we were drifting too far apart and that he just wanted a closer relationship. That same father during a recent divorce complained that my mom was turning everyone against him when in reality we were just realizing what an abusive asshole he had been behind the scenes.

“Alienation” could be a type of abuse, but if it happens with any frequency I haven’t seen it. Instead, “alienation” seems to be more often the last attempt at control, basically saying “you are the truly abusive one not continuing to engage with me and wanting to get away.”

That is the “red flag.” Given your behavior here and the reaction of the regulars, it looks like that red flag has been confirmed.

grumpyoldnurse
6 years ago

@ Fibinachi – I’m sure no one meant to offend the undead!

(We loves the Fibi, Precious, yes, we does! All the sweet juicy drip drip! So tasty, Precious! We’ll bring the Fibi tasty youngthings, we will! ::gollum::)

Mary
Mary
6 years ago

‘K, folks… if you were to look at John’s tin foil lined blogs, you would understand that he’s always and in perpetuity going to come back for more. Yes, I know we should not make armchair diagnoses, but I’m telling you peoples, I’ve seen this before. There are very good reasons why he does not have any shared custody of his child, nor, apparently, any contact at all. And the things that are at the root of that will keep this thread alive for 100 years.

Shaun Day
Shaun Day
6 years ago

So I guess all that stuff about wage parity and equal representation in government/media/law enforcement and bodily autonomy was in my fevered imagination? I’VE BEEN SO BLIND!

You have officially become too stupid to even attempt to reason with. Kill all men.

booburry
6 years ago

Maybe John should go start an argument over at Pharyngula if he thinks this place is nasty.
*giggles*

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

That’s why I think the mods should make him go away. He’s going to be harder to shake than a limpet, and twice as slimy.

grumpyoldnurse
6 years ago

@ Shaun – but that’s just women whinging about teh menz! Those aren’t real problems that real people (men) have! Also, feminist hate men, not toxic masculinity or patriarchy! Those words refer to masculine things, so checkmate, feminazis!

(Oops, sarcasm overdose. Is narcan an antidote for that? Or should I just eat more chocolate?)

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

You should steal John’s chocolate, since his undead body can’t digest it anyway.

sarahrocco
6 years ago

@grumpyoldnurse, I think you’re supposed to pair cheese with whine.

kittehserf - MOD
6 years ago

booburry

Maybe John should go start an argument over at Pharyngula if he thinks this place is nasty.
*giggles*

Oh yes, yes! Someone teleport him there! He’ll be eviscerated and then the Poopyhead will obliterate the sad remains with the banhammer, in Big Red Letters.

cassandra – I’ve contacted the Dark Lord.

General note: if the troll posts again, let us know (via the mods email or mine, for those who have it) and I’ll zap his comments.

grumpyoldnurse
6 years ago

Nope, whine’s out as there’s already been so much of it around here. But, stealing John’s chocolate? THAT I could do!

kittehserf - MOD
6 years ago

mods’ email, dammit.

grumpyoldnurse
6 years ago

ALL HAIL THE DARK LORD!!! and Bootsy!

Shut up, Woody!

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Actually vampires are too glamorous, I wasn’t looking at the photo in enough detail. Nope, I have discovered the true secret of John eternal life, and the reason why no judge in their right mind is going to give him custody of a child. Behold, a family home video.

sarahrocco
6 years ago

I’m sorry if this isn’t something I’m supposed to do when they’ve been modded, but omfg draaaaamaaaaa. If you don’t want your son to see you be thoroughly trounced, don’t come argue with people who know their shit way better than you do. FFS.

grumpyoldnurse
6 years ago

Oh, dear dog!! Really?

::gets holy water, stake, and hammer::

Shaun DarthBatman Day
6 years ago

Oh I see? So wanting to have playable women, with adequate or even moderately appropriate clothing, roles in video games is about MEN! Wage parity is about MEN. Women’s representation in the media is about MEN. Government representation is about MEN (whoops valid complaint just not in the way John means). Birth control is about MEN. Property rights were about MEN. The right to vote? Totally about MEN. Sex Worker rights are actually MEN’S RIGHTS. Marital rape laws are about MEN (whoops another valid one). Domestic Violence shelters are about MEN (well obviously). So half are technically about men and the things men do (or in John’s world are blamed for). Thing is, John, these are things that negatively impact women everywhere, and if men *are* committing crimes against us, it’s about us needing safety and not men and I can’t believe you are so fucking egocentric that when we open a DV shelter you automatically think it’s about you. Here’s a thought…remove head from sphincter, then type.

And I just called NASA and they have assured me that you are *not* the center of the universe.

Shaun DarthBatman Day
6 years ago

Oh the troll is sadflouncing!

Let me get my popcorn for the next wall o text.