Open Thread for Personal Stuff: October 2014 Dog Walk Dog Edition

I don’t know. One issue with Orthodox people is they have a very high standard for conversion; so they don’t recognize converts from other sects.

I’m gonna argue with this. It’s not that they have such high standards for conversion, it’s that a stripe of Orthodoxy doesn’t really accept non-them as being observant Jews.

Since those sects don’t accept the observance of other jews, they won’t accept those sects did it right.

That said, even the zealots in Israel accept non-orthodox conversion (though there are some things which even they won’t tolerate: any rabbi who sanctions a mixed marriage is going to have any conversion he accepts refused: perhaps any conversion he has ever done. This is why Mme Pecunium’s father didn’t come to the wedding, nor the husband of the woman who made our ketubot.

But if I were to convert, if my father in law were to oversee it… there isn’t a rabbi in the world who is going to be able to trip me, nor him, up in the forms, and it’s going to be accepted by everyone but bigoted zealots.

idledilletante: @hellkell:He can’t tell his parents about you,

I missed that.

He needs to fish or cut bait. If you are going to convert… that’s 2-3 years of your life. He can’t keep you a secret that long (esp. not because a rabbi has to be involved somewhere).

Are you going to shul? Do you interact with anyone? Has the Haddassah said hello?

If he won’t tell his parents about you: bail. He’s not treating you well. He’s not treating you as good jew should treat you. He is ashamed of you. No one who is ashamed of you, deserves your attention.

Kittehs: Plus, I would lay odds, idledilettante, that if you converted and married, birth control would be forbidden.

Not per judaism.

katz: Forgive me if I’m misinterpreting, but: If the two of you ended up with a child, he would consider the child less valuable because of the circumstances of its birth? I have a real problem with that.

Not “less valuable”, just not a member of the tribe. I have friends who are in a mixed marriage (he jewish, she not) and when their son was born they went to the effort of making him jewish (as an infant, born to such a couple, it’s a pro-forma ritual, basically a mikvah, where the the father takes the child in: if it’s a boy this is done just before the bris).

I think the real problem is… if idledilletante gets pregant the only way for that to happen is for him to confess to having a relationship, and if she doesn’t convert, he can’t marry her.

idledilletante: If you and he are having any sort of sex… he may exploiting your non-Jewishnes.

That came to mind for me too, Pecunium.

Kittehs:

Plus, I would lay odds, idledilettante, that if you converted and married, birth control would be forbidden.

Not per judaism.

I was thinking more per whatever this sect is, or even idledilettante’s boyfriend’s take on it (esp. since he seems to have no clue about abortion being permitted).

Yeah, I’m thinking ditch him even if he does tell his parents. Not telling is a great big scarlet flag all by itself, but even without that … nope, just nope.

Which doesn’t sound at all promising, does it? 🙁

@Idledilletante:

Other people chimed in very well, but I’m going to add my opinion anyhow because I’ve got a niggling sense of… something. First, my little disclaimer to join the others – I’m an atheist, and that works for me. However, I’m friends with, involved with, acquainted with or dealing with a bewildering array of people dating with various faiths and beliefs. My roommate for a good year was/is a very focused Wiccan, there’s the fun times with the satanist, the buddhist and the animist (they walked into a bar, see, and…).

And with all that in my background, reading your question strikes me more as a relationship thing than a faith thing. Faith is important – heavens knows, it’s probably one of the most important questions – and I hope you arrive at a conclusions that fits your worldview and brings harmony to your interactions with matters arcane.

Here’s the thing, though. When it comes to people combined with faith, everyone else is utterly spot on when they say that it comes down to how much tolerance and patience you have for each other. I love my friends, but they know my hard limit for attending seances and spiritual journeys or masses or black candle dinners or sun worship meetings is exactly and specifically “Once for my own curiosity, twice if it means something to you, three times if it’s really important and no more, no less, don’t ask”. That may sound glib, but it’s important because everyone has specific strictures they follow when they have a faith. And as a currently non-observing person interacting with someone elses faith, it’s important to have those ground rules for yourself and them. For instance, I’ll take off my shoes, not curse, not serve pork or light a candle at sunset on your behalf if that’s what’s important to you, but no more than that, stop asking, I’m not going to break into a orphanage to kidnap a child and sacrifice him to your dark overlord, for the love of newtonian mechanics, let it go.

(Nah, it’s cool, my friend is a Levayan satanist, so there are no actual child sacrifices. I’m being glib again, sorry. It’s been a frustrating morning)

And the thing is, your boyfriend is choosing to follow some, ignore others, disregard others yet again, specifically attempt to remain quiet about some others and finally observe and follow the rest, just so he can have two things that are not, strictly speaking, compatible.

yeah he won’t enter a church or eat bacon but sex is an exception.

so

Apparently all the options are unpalatable to him if I’m a Gentile; have it and it’s a Gentile, don’t and I’ve killed his firstborn.

which leads to

@ kittehserf P.S. Technically I don’t have to follow any of the rules. I do it because I want to convert; and the kitchen was kosherized so I could serve appropriate food. I still don’t follow all the rules; like the Sabbath rules and stuff. The only reason I don’t fry scallops or other nonkosher food anymore is because of all the rekosherizing I’d have to do.

and also

Despite that, I’ve agreed to honor this request and not touch my boyfriend while I’m niddah….. And yes, niddah *does* drive him up the wall. He’s already asked to come over here like three times, I say no ’cause I don’t want to break my promises to him & God and etc.

so here

@kittehserf yeah he can’t tell his parents about me.

Your boyfriend could be the sweetest, most thoughtful, most introspective person in the world. A wonderful, fantastic, charismatic and delightful person who brings joy to everyone around him. That’d be great, and I really, really wish that your relationship is one of happiness and joy. I don’t know the guy, I can’t know the guy, and my judgements are based on your words about the guy.

But look at that summation. Is that a good sign? When it comes to sex, something that benefits both of you, he’s fine with not observing his own strictures. When it’s the niddah, he wants to not observe it, I imagine because it relates to that lustful thing otherwise banned. When it comes to food, you’ve kosherized your kitchen to serve appropriate food, and avoid eating other things because it’d be a bother to do all that rekosherizing.

Quick question – how many times does he do the cooking?

Again, that’s not to be glip. That’s actually an important question that sort of gets at the impression I’m getting here. Because so far, in your desire to maybe convert and certainly in your desire to know about Orthodox Judanism, are doing all these things that require effort, time, focus and mental preparation on your part in order to satisfy yourself and a guy who is not doing very much in return. Not because he’s lazy or anything like that, but because so far the onus is entirely on you to adapt and become whatever version of A Better Person that someone else desires. You are molding your behavior and your life to adapt to someone else who has no seeming desire, intention or wish to do the same.

Someone who is completely fine breaking their own religious views so long as it involves other people than fellow believers is not acting in a manner befitting an observing practitioner. Doing a bunch of stuff that you otherwise cannot do with someone who will not chastise you for doing it, without revealing to anyone else that you are doing these things makes you a hypocrite.

Whatever talk about women issues, or the world at large, or other people comes up? That’s a smokescreen. It’s insubstantial and important. Because when the chips are down and things actually comes up, what happens is this:

There was also a very awkward conversation where he grilled me about what happens if my birth control were fail. Apparently all the options are unpalatable to him if I’m a Gentile; have it and it’s a Gentile, don’t and I’ve killed his firstborn. The speaking of me like I’m some passive entity here doesn’t escape me. Irritated I told him to wear condoms if it bothers him so much, the idea of having a Gentile baby. That’s the closest I’ve gotten to angry at him, because I just sounded so passive in his description of events, like pregnancy happens on you like growing crops on a plot of land.

IF a person with a penis, any person with a penis, is worried about the potential problems of a future baby upon engaging in sexual relations with someone, there is one, one simple solution to this conundrum that’s been around for years, is cheaply available, is minimally invasive and requires literally no effort:

wear a fucking condom.

And yet, you were the person bringing that subject up. All this concern, empathy, perspective and broad willingness to relate and understand does not lead to him buying some condoms and saying: “Hey, I was worried about X, so maybe next time we Y, we could use C?”

Being 20 is no excuse. I’m 23, only by virtue of having had a birthday mere weeks ago, so age is not all that important here.

What is important here is that his understanding, concern, ability to relate, willingness to listen, ability to have a perspective and all that go right out the window the moment it requires that he actually do the slightest damn thing, like maybe admit that seperating me and women in a shul is a little laughably sexist, or that the notion that women are somehow superior in faith is all sorts of odd or refraining from following his own niddah stipulation of not having relations with a menustrating women or tell his parents he’s in a relationship with a someone not observing the same faith or, for heavens sake, wearing a condom while engaged in an activity that he actually has the fucking gall to insinuate might lead to problems for his moral compass further down the line when you have a potential non-jew baby (your birth control. Not “ours”. Fuck that a million times).

Even if your guy is the most wonderful guy on Earth, this is not wonderful enough to deal with all that crap

———–

In other news I just sat a motorcycle theory test that turned out to be void because my instructor forgot a signature on a piece of paper, and because of that I’ve missed the final Mandarin lesson before the fall vacation. I’m a little miffed, because there’s an exam after said fall vacation and my Mandarin is 愧对任务。

Ahem.

@Katz:

That’s beautiful. I’m not sure how to preserve that exactly. I think a translations works best when you assume its a folk-song, which doesn’t necessarily have to be a song, but gets the melody from the repetition… that’s the best way I can think of going about this.

Apples and pears were blossoming
Mist on the river floating
On the bank Katyusha stepped out
On the high steep bank

Apples and pears were in bloom
Mist creeping on the river
As Katyusha set out on the banks
On that lofty, steep bank

Stepped out, started a song
About one grey steppe eagle
About her loved one
Whose letters she cherished

Stepped out, started a song
A song for a grey steppe eagle
A song for her loved one
A song for the letter in her heart

???

Oh song, maiden’s song
Fly towards the clear sun
And to the warrior on a far away border
Bring Katyusha’s greeting

Oh song, little maiden’s song!
Fly towards the clear sun(g)
To that warrior on a far away border
Bring Katyusha’s melody

May he remember this simple maiden
And hear her singing
May he save our motherland
And love, Katyusha will save

May he recall a simple maiden
May he hear her song
May he save our motherland
As Katyusha saves love

—-

So the repeats are “Bank”, “song” and “may he”, but the third verse is the most difficult one. I think “melody” works the best out of all the options I thought of, because she is singing. Still, a version might also be (but this takes some serious liberties with the translation!)

Fruitful trees bloomed near the river
Mist creeping ’bout the bank
As Katyusha set out
Set out high on the banks with a shiver

Stepped out, started a song
About one grey eagle
About her loved one
Whose letter she’d brought along
// Loved one gone so long
// Whose letter with love was strong
//who looked just dashing in a thong

Oh song, oh maiden’s song
Fly upwards towards the sun
To the warrior on a far border
Carry Katyusha’s love along

Maybe he remembers this simple maid
Maybe he hears her serenade
May he! save our motherland, unafraid
As Katyusha saves the love that won’t fade

—

This is really difficult because the song itself is somewhat easy to translate, but the words, argh, the words.

Incidentally I’m going to have that song on my brain all day.

Thank you everyone for the great advice. Lots for me to think about, pray about. His attitude on gender w/r/t Judaism is difficult; it may turn out to be a dealbreaker if he can’t examine it critically instead of reflexively defending it. I’m not going to ditch him right now, but if the behavior continues then it’s probably for the best I’m not a Jew and this relationship is unlikely to last long.

FWIW I may be mis-representing the conversation we had about birth control. It started with him asking me lots of questions about Vasalgel (http://www.parsemusfoundation.org/vasalgel-home/), which is a kind of male BC; like a reversible vasectomy. It involves a small injection of a polymer into the vasa deferentia. However the treatment’s not going to be available ’til 2017 at the earliest, and reversibility studies have only been proven in rabbits so far. So it’s not appropriate for my boyfriend at this time.

He was actually asking about birth control in the context of what more he could do; because the options post-failure are pretty dismal. I don’t exactly *want* to abort my first pregnancy either. Unfortunately the answer is “condoms”, and not much else. In that same conversation I also had to explain what an IUD was and how it worked; I suspect he may have never had a proper sex ed course.

I agree that I’m doing all the changing here; but perhaps I’ve understated my attraction for Judaism. The mechitza definitely distracts me from feeling that affection as I write. It keeps reminding me of the other private rules and small things that seem to add up to the oppression of women.

But I wouldn’t get anything out of insisting my boyfriend pick up Christian habits or abandon Jewish practices; that would make me very sad. Still he could compromise slightly about this gender stuff; since he compromises about other things.

If he’s as much of a feminist as he thinks he might feel the same way I do about these rules, instead of defend to me how they’re actually fair. It’s very easy to say you’re an advocate for women but it’s much harder to actually stand up and be an ally to a particular woman in a particular circumstance. That’s true of the secular and religious world I find.

@Fibinachi – he’s a little bad at cooking (always too much cayenne pepper) but he makes some of the sides and does the washing up. I know more about cookery; I enjoy it. My mom’s a good cook and so’s my sister; in my family cooking’s a bit of a hobby. I know that for some people it’s a chore but making a nice kosher Sabbath meal is (I think) a pretty fun way to spend my Friday afternoon.

@Pecunium – I’m in Northern Manhattan; perhaps we should meet. I could give you my email address or something. You wrote so much and I find it all very helpful.

It’s strange you should say he is ashamed of me. I know he might be; if you ask him directly he says he’s not. I wouldn’t know; but it’s hurtful to look at the kosherized kitchen, the prayers I’ve learned & think it’s not sufficient. He tells his friends about me; just not anyone who might tell his dad (who’s a Kabbalist rabbi.)

And I didn’t know about the thing with the babies; that they can be converted at birth. Is that a more Modern Orthodox thing?

And you’re right; there are a lot of different flavors of Orthodox; I’ve heard of shuls which even keep the gender-segregated design without keeping women off the beema (like an altar, but more of a table to put the Torah on while reading it. They do this by having a mechitza that goes down the center of the space, with a men’s side and women’s side and the beema in the center. Granted, women can’t sing the Torah when other men are present but there are some women-only services in which they may sing.

That sounds tolerable to me; because it’s not the idea that men and women are different that bothers me but that women are physically separated from the symbols of faith and the Torah. The niddah rules don’t bother me nearly as much because they’re private; your fellow congregants can’t tell by looking if you’re following them. Ditto with birth control or whatever other fool thing the rabbis may say about menstruant women.

There’s certainly no way I can just stomach all this sexist awfulness; it would make me miserable and undermine any kind of sincere conversion attempt. In my heart I would renounce such a prejudiced method of worship as being true veneration; because I can’t see how it’s necessary to put women down to worship God.

Since birth control pills make me batshit crazy and nauseous?
When I shacked up with a guy we used vaginal contraceptive film and rubbers, there weren’t any surprises.
I saw that the contraceptive sponge is being made again too, recently.

So maybe something like that as a backup? Just a thought.

Yeah, I don’t know that this guy’s a keeper. He might be for someone else in the future.

Fibi: Thanks for having a crack at Katyusha! I think you’re right that actually making it rhyme would be excessively onerous (it has a loose ABAB scheme in Russian), but your folk-song variant is very tonic and nice.

Orthodox Judaism forbids the use of birth control outside of “limited circumstances”. Basically, it’s not up to the individual whether they use birth control. It’s up to their rabbi whether it’s appropriate under specific circumstances for a limited time for the individual to use it.

“Orthodox” Judaism is a really big tent. There are a lot of sects (or shul, even) for whom this is true. There are a lot for whom it’s not. Since there is no sanhedrin, to make definitive rulings for all of Judaism, there are no blanket rules: not even for things as central to the faith as what counts as “things which can be leavened” (don’t get me started on <kitniyot

Which means (again) it’s largely dependent on the nature of his personal belief, and the manner of the congregation.

pendraegon, congrats, that’s terrific news!

::throws confetti and cat furs around::

Yay, pendraegon! More good job karma to anyone who needs it!

I also have nothing to add on the Judaism discussion, but have made sure the hugs box is fully stocked.

Whoohoo for gainful employment!

Yay for job: Mme Pecunium was out of work about as long (thank God for poly household… on just her savings and my income things were about to get desperate).