An open thread for personal stuff, continuing from here.
As usual for these threads: no trolls, no MRAs, no I’m-not-really-an-MRA-buts, don’t be mean.
Categories
We Hunted The MammothBucking the Backlash
We Hunted The Mammoth
@ idle: how long have y’all been going out again? You said 2 months?
Don’t think about really getting serious about him for 2 years. Why do I say that? Potential abusers cannot keep a lid on ugly for that long a time without slipups.
In the meantime, please read ” why does he do that? ” by Lundy Bancroft. You will then know what to look for.
RE: converting religions for a partner. All I can say is, ‘My Big, Fat, Greek Wedding’ has a *lot* to answer for.
@katz thanks for your support.
You stated it just perfectly above– if there was no draw for me towards Orthodoxy I could just laugh it off, because it wouldn’t be any more attracted to it than to say reading Roosh V.’s blog daily. But because this deeply sexist religion has attractive features too that I feel conflicted.
@blahlistic yeah two months. TBH I am kind of glad I’m a Gentile atm because the conversion process will probably take a year or two; if I was Jewish my boyfriend said he would have asked me to marry already. I get the sense quick engagements are sort of common in the Orthodox community but I’d never marry someone I had known for less than a year. I would have my own parents to answer to if I did!
Contrapangloss: At least it was only a flute. It would be way more embarrassing if you brought, say, a tuba.
Please don’t do this to yourself, idle.
What seems like a workable conflict from one’s perspective can be enormous from another’s and your willingness to work on the issue is not enough. People who are insecure and afraid will hurt you. I made so many excuses for the last guy because his abusive behaviour was the product of his own self-loathing and fear. At the end of the day I had given him everything including my sense of self-worth yet it was me who wasn’t good enough for him. I accepted him as the flawed person he is and was ready to work with him to overcome his insecurities and to learn to be the partner he needed me to be. That didnt change a fucking thing from his perspective though.
He’s very young and it sounds as though he has some self awareness so there’s lots and lots of hope for him but this is his problem and you converting will not address his insecurity and fear. Abandoning your values will not help this man. He’ll only dig in further.
idledilettante, that’s a hard place you’re in, and most of what I was going to say has been said already, and better.
I had a manager about twenty years back, who converted to Orthodox Judaism, wigs and all, and eventually moved to Israel. I have no idea how she coped with it all, except one time she told me all the women she knew loved niddah, because it gave them a break from their husbands, and just as importantly, drove the husbands up the wall … which actually casts a pretty dismal light on their marriages, imo.
My instinct says no, don’t do it. Not Orthodoxy, where you’ll never bee a full person, let alone fully accepted as a convert. Not for a very, very young man you hardly know (or rather, with him as a major factor) and who hasn’t looked outside his own perspective at all. I’d say investigate Conservative or Reform Judaism, for your own inner life, your own expression of faith. Finding that seems a surer thing than a relationship that may not last anyway (I have to say I’m surprised your bf is dating a Gentile at all).
So I’m getting the impression that your boyfriend _is_ willing to compromise his religious faith to the extent of having sex while he’s unmarried, but he is _not_ willing to compromise to any extent at all on how those beliefs will restrict his wife For The Rest Of Her Life.
I’d think a second time about this, and then a third time … and then a twenty-second time.
Policy of Madness: yay for feeling better!
Well, Fribs had her vet check today, and we’re trying the subcutaneous liquids method of treating her kidney disease. All I can say is, it’s a bloody good thing I am out of work, because she needs five shots three times a day, and it takes two people to do that. Not that she puts up a fight or anything, but you need one person to hold her while the other does the injection. At least it’s very easy to do; I did her first shots of the day up at the clinic.
The vets where we used to live joked that they’d be able to build a new wing and call it the [our surname] Wing, because we had five kitties and spent so much time and money up there. I should write to them and let them know that we’ve a private, one-patient clinic of our own these days!
He’s certainly not holding himself to the orthodox standards if he’s having sex. Why on earth does he expect you to?
Not just having sex, but in a relationship with a Gentile – surely that’s breaking a whole heap of rules? So, why’s it okay for him to do that, but not you? There’s a whopping dose of male privilege and double standards right there.
@mildlymagnificent yeah he won’t enter a church or eat bacon but sex is an exception.
To me it seems human; there’s probably lots of Catholics who use condoms out there. And yes, niddah *does* drive him up the wall. He’s already asked to come over here like three times, I say no ’cause I don’t want to break my promises to him & God and etc.
@marinerachel I will consider that. But he really does not seem like a bigoted person, so it’s sort of confusing. I don’t want to hold what Rabbi Irgendwem said against him; that doesn’t seem any more fair than expecting me to responsible for what the Archbishop of Canterbury says. I’m loath to end the relationship because I find shul repulsive.
@kittehserf yeah he can’t tell his parents about me.
There was also a very awkward conversation where he grilled me about what happens if my birth control were fail. Apparently all the options are unpalatable to him if I’m a Gentile; have it and it’s a Gentile, don’t and I’ve killed his firstborn. The speaking of me like I’m some passive entity here doesn’t escape me. Irritated I told him to wear condoms if it bothers him so much, the idea of having a Gentile baby. That’s the closest I’ve gotten to angry at him, because I just sounded so passive in his description of events, like pregnancy happens on you like growing crops on a plot of land.
@ kittehserf P.S. Technically I don’t have to follow any of the rules. I do it because I want to convert; and the kitchen was kosherized so I could serve appropriate food. I still don’t follow all the rules; like the Sabbath rules and stuff. The only reason I don’t fry scallops or other nonkosher food anymore is because of all the rekosherizing I’d have to do.
I’m not comfortable with the fact he percieves you or a child of his being a gentile as problematic. If he can’t get past that bit of doctrine just as he has the bits about not having sex prior to marriage he needs to be with someone who is orthodox and doesn’t mind the misogyny of it.
@marinerachel lol. If I could change it now I would; any sort of Jewish pedigree would solve this problem, even if my family wasn’t observant. Observant Jewish Girls don’t put out, ya dig?
Not that I’m belittling how serious this is. It bugs me.
Perhaps it works differently for people like him. He’s not the least worried about people doing things or being a certain way that. doesn’t. affect. him. But he’s very, very particular about stuff that is directly connected to him, his life and his religion.
Sort of the inverse of the bloke who’s loud-mouthed and obnoxious with women in the workplace or families he doesn’t know, but is a real sweetheart to his partner and his kids and his extended family.
Worth looking at in the funny mirror to see if it makes sense from another angle.
Whoa.
This right here.
He’s talking about abortion as you killing his firstborn?
First, he has no clue about biology, does he? If a pregnancy is aborted there IS no firstborn. Besides, what happened to the idea that life is counted from the first breath, eh? I thought that was how it was counted in Judaism, not some at-conception nonsense?
Second, and more importantly, he’s saying you don’t get to make the choice about pregnancy and birth, when or if.
No great surprise in any of this, but you know what I’m seeing here? Huge red flags.
Blunt advice: end this relationship.
Take away the “he doesn’t seem like a bigot” and the religious framework and you’ve got at core the exact same shit we see here all the time: a man who can’t even be bothered thinking about how things affect a woman – supposedly a woman very important to him, though he doesn’t think enough of her to tell his parents “Hey, I’m dating a non-Jew, and I want to marry her.” He’s quite content to put you through shit for his convenience, and not even acknowledge that it is shit.
Regardless of your own religious leanings or eventual decisions, this has Bad News written all over it.
Don’t marry him, now or in a year or whatever, thinking he’s going to change. He has absolutely no incentive to do so, and every incentive not to, in his community.
No. All the fucking no to this.
He can’t tell his parents about you, and you think he’s still OK? Run like your feet were on fire and your ass was about to catch. This guy is a chode.
You can like and investigate Judaism without this albatross.
@ idledillettante – I’m a bit late here, and haven’t read the whole thread, yet, so please pardon if this is off base or already been said.
This is probably WAAAAAYY TMI, but here’s my conversion story. I was raised by very traditional Biblical literalist Christians. I remember family dinners where Bible quotes were thrown around like poisoned spears. There was much acrimony. This kind of turned me off the Abrahamic religions, in general, especially after I finally admitted that I was a feminist (did I mention that my family is VERY patriarchal in their Biblical interpretations?). I bumped around for a good long while, trying to be various things, and even no thing, and then I found the one that fit me.
When I was inducted into my temple, I felt like I had come Home. Buddhism fits me. And the particular sect that I stumbled into fits me very, very, very well. If Orthodox Judaism doesn’t feel like it fits you, doesn’t feel like you’ve Come Home, then I, personally, would question if that was where you are supposed to be. Please don’t rush into this. Also, your boyfriend sounds a bit unsympathetic. He’s willing to put all this stuff onto you, but is he willing to meet you half way? Please let yourself be a bit selfish here, because it’s your spiritual life on the line.
Hugs, if you want them.
Oh, dear. Just read the bit about you killing his first born Gentile, etc., etc. This changes my opinion slightly.
Please consider running far, far away from him.
That may have been harsh. It is entirely possible that he is so young that he doesn’t understand that refering to a woman as though she was a plot of land to be sown and harvested could ever be taken as offensive…
I’d go further: it’s your physical and emotional safety, too.
QFT, kittehserf!
I clearly hadn’t read enough of the thread before commenting.
WHOA whoa whoa.
Forgive me if I’m misinterpreting, but: If the two of you ended up with a child, he would consider the child less valuable because of the circumstances of its birth? I have a real problem with that.
Plus, I would lay odds, idledilettante, that if you converted and married, birth control would be forbidden. Do you really want to commit yourself to breeding whether you like it or not, whether the marriage proves a disaster or not? It seems a hell of a risk to take, not only for yourself, but any of those children you might be forced to have.
idledillettante: Re Orthodox Judaism:
1: Their are lots of stripes of Stripes of Othorodoxy (Mme Pecunium is Jewish: her father is a Rabbi, and she describes the family customs as “Conservadox”).
2: Not all Orthodox are as strict as the customs you are describing.
3: That is largely immaterial, because it’s the minhag (i.e. traditions) of your boyfriend you have to adopt.
That being said: you and he can establish your own minhags but they will be anchored in his religious belief.
And some of the things he has said (i.e. women are holier than men) are rubbish (and not all Orthodox believe them. We have lots of Modern Orthodox friends and they don’t buy into that: some are even Egalitarian (it’s a good word in the context of progressive judaism) enough that women read torah portions.
If you want some help in defending your position I can (when Sukkot is over, and she is home again) speak with Mme. Pecunium: or some of my Modern Orthodox friends).
I would, for the present, recommend you not convert, nor (again, for the present) think about it in a serious way. Your reservations are significant, and I don’t think (until, and unless, you can reconcile them) you would be well served in conversion.
I know people who have converted (and who are happy in it: one is a rabbi (male) and another is a woman who is 1: conservative, and 2: very openly poly (as is Mme. Pecunium).
Your boyfriend can try to say Mme Pecunium isn’t a good jew: she will tie him into theological knots, as she took a degree with the Jewish Theological School: and was reared by a rabbi.
There is also a Mammother (whom I could get in touch with) who is a rabbinical candidate: she would probably be more than happy to talk to you about these issues.
(BTW, I am in New Jersey, so in person moral support from a non-jew involved with a jew is more than providable).
I can say that I was moderately informed on Judaism before I met Mme Pecunium (I seem to have a moderate attraction to jewish women: in retrospect it seems about 15 percent of my lovers have been jewish, which is all out of proportion to their presence in the larger population), which helped (I wasn’t completely stumped by keeping kosher*: and that were she not moderately ecumenical we’d not have gotten involved (and she was really worried about coming out as poly to her folks: in part because she was afraid it could jeopardise her father’s position with his congregation. There was a bit of, “what!” when she told them, but they didn’t really blink, and I’ve been a part of the family from day one)
We have created family minhag, in part because I have a tradition of doing passover with a jewish friend in Los Angeles, and in part because that’s what families do.***
I have thought about converting (it could make a lot of things, esp. Passover, easier, because I, as a convert, can choose the “stripe” of Judaism I want, and the only rational one is Dutch Sephardic, which would solve some dietary issues during Passover, related to one of those arcane aspects of kashrut**)
But I won’t. In part because my personal religious practice can’t be reconciled with Judaism. I am too much a Roman Catholic in my worldview.
And that question, can you reconcile your worldview to the requirements of being an Jew in the manner of your husband’s observance, is the fundamental one relating to conversion.
I would say the only reason to convert is that you WANT, in your very bones, to be Jewsish. Any other reason isn’t good enough.
I know that’s what my father in law would tell you. It’s what every rabbi (and preist, for that matter) I know would say. It’s not; it can’t be, about him.
*I am much better at it now, and observant jews are 1: surprised that I can talk about it and 2: gobsmacked that I know esoterica which they never would have considered. It comes up when I am selling cookware, but I digress.
** That won’t help you because (in that sexist way) Judaism stipulates the wife accepts the minhags of her husband.
*** We have four three sets of pots, Meat, Dairy, treyf. If something gets screwed up, I fix it. Steel, only needs to be in boiling water. I owned glass pots, they are kashered by being cleaned. Sharpening a knife takes care of it. Cold Contact solves most problems
We have some very orthodox friends (one of whom I have never seen the hair of, and whom I have only touched by accident in narrow places). They are more than willing to come to my house, and eat my cooking: even though I cook non-kosher food (usually pork, but some frozen seafood which isn’t legit).