An open thread for personal stuff, continuing from here.
As usual for these threads: no trolls, no MRAs, no I’m-not-really-an-MRA-buts, don’t be mean.
Categories
We Hunted The MammothBucking the Backlash
We Hunted The Mammoth
@idledillettante
Only you can decide if you can accept this. I will tell you that your instincts on how sexist this seems align with my own.
So, it’s okay to treat women poorly because they are strong and can handle it. Except that the decision to treat someone poorly is arbitrary. There’s no actual need for anyone to put up with poor treatment, so putting this burden onto women is completely unnecessary.
Assume that your boyfriend is physically stronger than you are. Would that make it okay to put a 50 lb weight on him, arbitrarily, and expect him to carry it around everywhere? I mean, he’s stronger than you, so putting this weight on him is fine, right? There’s no actual need for anyone to carry any weight, you’re only dumping it onto him because you’ve decided, unilaterally, that he can handle it. If he weren’t so strong then you’d just leave this weight at home because it’s not needed. But that’s fine, because he’s strong? Really? Would your boyfriend agree with that? I doubt it.
That’s rough, idledillettante. I know my spouse and her mother had similar but less extreme issues regarding converting to Catholicism. They had the advantage of the person encouraging the conversion not being particularly observant, but your case seems so much worse I’m not sure what could help.
Have you looked around for resources by rabbis criticizing gender segregation etc.? Your boyfriend might be more inclined to listen to acknowledged religious experts. The trick is to find some that either make some claim to Orthodoxy or whose actual theological position is more ambiguous.
It sounds like he might take consider any rabbi who criticises gender issues in OJ insufficiently Orthodox, but if you can find somebody who is otherwise Orthodox it might be effective.
@Policy of Madness
that metaphor seems apt. I’ll mention it to the rabbi he says he wants me to see.
@maistrechat
Find a sufficiently feminist rabbi; now there’s an idea. I know Jonathan Sacks has written some stuff opposing the Orthodox Right, but Amazon’s probably got a lot of other rabbi books on the subject. Whether there’s an Orthodox rabbi in New York who feels the same way I do & would oversee my conversion is a hopeful thought too. Getting an Orthodox conversion can be tricky.
Thanking everyone for hot chocolate.
Have decided that soothing hoe beverage consists of rum in hot chocolate with a side of bonbons. Because MISANDRY!
You may now send my soothing hoe beverages.
cloudiah, sending hugs if they are wanted and IV of coffee to make up for sleep deprivation.
idledillettante: I’m an atheist–saying that up-front not to set up an argument against religion, but as a bias-disclaimer; you should clearly consider the source for advice on a topic like this.
Obviously, you can only decide this for yourself. That said, what you need to ask yourself is not, “Can I accept this right now?” but rather, “Can I accept this for the rest of my life?” Because that’s at least the theory of religious conversion, and if it’s part of a prelude to marriage, it will be nearly impossible to de-convert without also ending the marriage. Putting up with what really is a very misogynistic attitude for the rest of your life would require a fairly high level of tolerance. Also, remember–if you have children (and Orthodox Judaism is almost as much about making sure women get pregnant as Catholicism, as you noted), you’re going to be expected to raise them according to these rules, as well. Orthodox religions of all stripes are very heavy on the notion that one must properly train the next generation to adhere to the letter of the law.
Your boyfriend has asked you to have an open mind. You should turn that around on him, explicitly–“Fine–I’ll continue educating myself about Orthodox Judaism, but we also have to find a Conservative or Reform shul and you have to be just as open-minded to what they have to say as you’re asking me to be.”
idledillettante, it’s not sexist at all. You can trust me because I temporarily grew a penis so I could type that sentence, just for you. Happy conversion!
http://articlechase.com/beyondnews/images/smilies/SARCASM.gif
@idledillettante
I expect the rabbi will have answers to whatever you may say. Again, only you can decide if this is acceptable to you. The rabbi can’t, and your boyfriend can’t.
I would also be wary of the notion that you can change your boyfriend’s ideas about his religion. Obviously it happens – you’re thinking about changing yours – but that’s not the usual way it turns out. The only way he’s going to change his beliefs is if they are somehow unsatisfactory to him. If he’s pleased with his religion, the chances of him changing his mind are slim.
Honestly, if bf isn’t willing to actually consider what you are saying is sexism (benign sexism, ie sexism that “favours” women, is still harmful and dehumanising), he needs to have a recto-cranial inversion operation, immediately. Women’s bodies are not unclean, women’s faith is not overwhelming, and women’s presence is not dangerous to men. These orthodox beliefs are a disgusting and dehumanising and abusive set of practices meant to “other” women and keep us from full participation in all aspects of life. Men who fear women are inherently abusive. This isn’t even a question about faith for me, convert or not but do it on your own terms, it’s a question of having a partner who will never see you as an equal or a person and is using “faith” as an excuse. His religious upbringing is no excuse to lack critical thought or compassion, and his reluctance to even think about how damaging this can potentially be is a huge red flag. Sending hugs if you want them, and good thoughts to give you the strength you need to figure this out and get through it in the healthiest and best way for you.
OH! *If* women’s faith is so much stronger then why are women not *leading* the faith? Shouldn’t the strength be an indication of the right and ability to lead? If men’s faith is so weak, then they should not be trusted with leadership.
Honestly, the whole thing is just ridiculous. Men fear women and therefore have to keep us segregated and isolated. Those are the hallmarks of abusers. So much UGH.
You guys. I … I feel better.
How long ago was my doctor’s appointment? Literally 2 days? I already feel better.
I don’t know if I can attribute this to Seroquel being fucking magic, or to the normal vicissitudes of bipolar disorder, but I feel better already. Unbelievable how fast this can turn around.
I have to say, I agree with Shaun. Of course, it’s your decision, but to me Orthodox Judaism is not any better than the Christian patriarchy/quiverfull movement. If you are interested in converting to Judaism there are plenty of non misogynist sectors of the faith you can join.
I don’t know you well but given your history of making feminist commentary here, I’m not sure you’d be very happy in an extremely patriarchal religious sect for the rest of your life. To be brutally honest, it kind of sounds like your boyfriend is gaslighting you about your concerns.
Only you know if a man you’ve been seeing for eight weeks is worth changing your entire worldview for but my honest advice is, don’t do it.
I also think that if you have to ask for advice about whether to convert, it’s probably not the right thing to do. Religious faith isn’t something you logic out. It’s there or it isn’t. I think if you believed God wants men and women to be separate and women to be treated as lesser you wouldn’t need to struggle with the decision.
Of course, I’m an atheist so maybe my perspective is off base here.
Not to spam the thread, but I should clarify. My advice isn’t not to convert to Judaism at all, just not this particular brand of it.
@wwth: I wouldn’t disregard an atheist’s advice. It’s all welcome.
Most of the other explanations I can find for this is couched in language of “tradition” and the nostalgia of shul being the same way it was when you were a kid. Because I have no traditional concept how shul’s supposed to be I think the blatant misogyny of it jumps out at me.
Ughh it makes no fuckin’ sense. My boyfriend is actually a halfway decent advocate for women on any other subject but this one. That’s the only difference I note between quiverfull people and Orthodox ones; this insanity’s better compartmentalized in Orthodoxy.
http://www.aish.com/ci/w/The-Feminist-Rabbi.html
Oh look, Orthodox Rabbis can be feminists… if they change the definition of “feminism” to cover something called “staying at home and being feminine”
*facepalm* What have I gotten myself into.
@idledillettante
How is he a halfway decent advocate for women? Is it just words? Because here he has an opportunity to back up his words with action, and he isn’t doing it. Does he actually behave like an ally, or is his ally-ness just talk?
I think that’s an important consideration. There are lots of dudes out there who talk the talk on general principles, but when it comes down to action on the behalf of actual, individual women, their advocacy evaporates and they fall back on what makes them, as men, comfortable.
I’m probably also a bad source of conversion advice, seeing as I’m a presbyluthidist (grew up presbyterian, played music for the Lutherans, generally hang out at Methodist churches, so by pretty much all evangelical church standards (except the Methodists, because they’re fairly chill about me cheating on them with other denominations) I’m kind of a crummy Christian not Christianing correctly…
…but if you want to convert, it should not be about your BF. Your faith is between you, God, and/or your rabbi. Would having the same faith as your bf/husband make life easier? Maybe, probably… But would it help you grow in your faith, and grow as a person?
If Orthodoxy is something you can only see yourself at best tolerating long term, it might not be the right place for you. You shouldn’t have to merely ‘tolerate’ faith.
If you ‘convert’ but can’t convert in your own head, it’ll eventually cause problems, regardless. How would he react if you converted to a non-orthodox Jewish shul?
It’s not that you have to not be faith-y just baca use there’s one component you don’t get. (Job, you bastard book of wrongness! Genesis, what’s wrong with your timelines and consistency, Blargh!) But, if there’s something that’s a severe hamper to faith, don’t do it.
For me, the lines with my Grandpa’s Baptist church was intolerance towards gay rights and them being adamantly opposed to even considering evolution. It’s really hard to sit in a church that implies you are an awful person for either thinking your cousin should be able to get married and because you got an A in evolution…
The church works for him, and his little chapel does a ton of good things, but it’s somewhere that alienates me from God, instead of bringing me closer. My sister’s involved in a megachurchish thing (not quiverful, thankfully). I don’t really connect there either, because it’s one of those ‘everyone feels faith so strongly’ ones, and my faith is still at the quiet pushing stage, not the ‘Faith! Here! Have some! Faith, Faith EVERYWHERE! Works of God all over the place!’ stage… And being surrounded by a ton of folks in that place in that stage is really uncomfortable.
So, try not to focus too much on what the intended thinks… I know it’s hard.
Good luck with whichever path into Judeism you end up choosing.
Since I’ve outed myself as faithy, I’ll be praying for good decision making vibes and an outcome of some form that helps you.
I’ll continue leaving secular Jedi hugs, pillow hugs, and warm feelings in the basket for everyone else though!
Not really, if this is where he gets hung up. This is part of his worldview. I wouldn’t convert for a “halfway” decent advocate.
Personally, I don’t think this is something that’s going to be surmountable long-term.
http://www.epicreads.com/blog/elissa-sussman-gives-fairy-tales-a-feminist-edge/
I especially like No. 7
@Policy of Madness
On our 2nd date I had a hickey on my neck from someone else. Earlier that day a horrible skinhead creep catcalled me about it in one of the worst episodes of street harassment I’ve witnessed. Shaken and horrified by the encounter I called Daniel to tell him about the mark, thinking he’d probably decide not to come. But he said “It’s okay, you’re your own person.” and came to my apartment anyway.
He knows about the feminist blog I write and is supportive of it. I showed him WHTM and he agreed that these people are misogynists. He can identify misogyny and sexism in the secular world but lacks introspection. I’m not sure how aware he is of male privilege.
He’s only twenty and I’m not sure how much of it he takes on from others, and how much of it he’d part with if I asked him to. I have the wish that actually learning about it and not regarding something like niddah laws as an abstraction but a real thing that actually affects him might lead him to re-examine whether this is sexist. If not then this probably can’t work out.
@contrapgloss
I don’t know. One issue with Orthodox people is they have a very high standard for conversion; so they don’t recognize converts from other sects. I would have to ask my boyfriend personally if a Conservative conversion would be sufficient; I suspect it is not.
But if I converted via an Orthodox shul but attended Conservative or Reform shul thereafter there would be no question as to whether I was a Jew; I’d just be a misbehaving Jew. That might be an appropriate compromise.
Eeeeexcellent. *finger drum*
I’d like you to have a crack at Katyusha. The lyrics in English are:
Here is the music, if that is helpful:
Fibinachi, thank you for the advice! It seems like improv classes are the way to go! I will definitely look into it sometime next week 🙂 I’m trying my best not to dwell on the possible outcome of every social interaction, It’s difficult, but I try haha. And you’re right, the truth is, most people are barely giving a thought to what I’m doing. They’re most likely, as I am, focused on their own thoughts and actions. I know this, but sometimes I forget in the moment. I could benefit from reminding myself whenever I feel anxious. Thanks again everyone!
idledillettante: You’re in a really difficult situation. I know what you feel like: There are sects that I feel really drawn to on a spiritual level, but that I’ve ended up staying away from based on their views of women.
The way I see it, even if you feel that a religion is really getting close to God in a way that other religions don’t, if they don’t allow women to fully participate, then you aren’t getting to tap into that. You’re an outsider in your own religion. And so from my perspective, converting to those religions would not get me close to God in the way I’d be hoping for.
It’s your decision to make, but the one thing I’ll say is that you shouldn’t convert on the assumption that this stuff is not that big a deal and will work itself out or you’ll get used to it. You sound like this stuff is really frustrating and irritating to you now, and if you convert and it becomes an essential part of your life and identity, all those things are only going to become more frustrating.
And, to echo other people, whatever you do, don’t do it because of your boyfriend. Your religion should spiritually nurture you; he has nothing to do with it.
Have fun at Improv, Mouse!
The first time I heard about improv on my campus, I thought it was a jazz instrument meet up. I brought a flute, and was very surprised when there weren’t any other instruments about.
“Improv? What do you mean improv is an acting thing. What? Oh…”
(also, sneaking more hugs in the barrel for idledillenttante and all other mammotheers facing existential, religious, psychiatric, ethical, or other quandaries)