An open thread for personal stuff, continuing from here.
As usual for these threads: no trolls, no MRAs, no I’m-not-really-an-MRA-buts, don’t be mean.
Categories
We Hunted The MammothBucking the Backlash
We Hunted The Mammoth
If I see one more person refer to the treatment given to rape victims by the public or the media as “slut shaming” I will officially lose my shit. Why do people not get how fucked up that framing is?
The fact that that happens all the time pretty much sums up why I find the current wave of feminism so frustrating, tbh.
In that usage, I think “slut shaming” is a sign of denial that using the more accurate “victim blaming” would be.
What irks me is that things like the Slutwalk have gone 180 degrees from the original meaning and intent. It was a response to a cop saying “Don’t dress like a slut” and the idea was a lot of rape victims making the “I was wearing this when I was raped: is this slutty?” in reference to jeans or track pants or whatever everyday clothes they had on. Now it’s more like a “Woo hoo, look at how slutty/edgy we are in our corsets and fishnets!” – never mind that it’s just playing into the idea that women having casual sex is wrong, as if “slut” is actually a thing.
Most people don’t seem to acknowledge that kids are just as traumatized by seeing abuse as they are by being abused.
Not an excuse for hurting others. No excuse. We have to own what we do, even when we did it out of internal distress.
Just noting where that distress came from, yanno?
Nitpicking others for ideological purity leads to (metaphorical) circular firing squads, groups falling apart and not ever getting a damn thing done.
Oh yeah, on the class issue. Sometimes I feel like going all Jarvis Cocker and sneering “everybody hates a tourist” at the people who don’t seem to understand how different a lot of these empowering choices look if they’re not so much choices as the only option available, but then I realize that doing so would be unhelpful.
Well, here I am, speaking as an honest-to-dog baby boomer, street marching 2nd waver. Not only street marcher, consciousness raising meeting attender. The one thing that always irritated me was the advocacy of “the personal is political”. At the time it was about not shaving your legs and all that guff. It eventually morphed into the “a bit of what you fancy does you good” attitude about high heels and lipstick as well as the more legitimate freedom to live your own lifestyle – married with children and a job, SAHM, single forever, lesbian, sole parent and any and all variations of the possibilities.
It would have been a much better thing if the “personal” experience attitude had developed naturally into consideration of intersectionality rather than degenerating into fair-average-quality, tediously boring, everyday consumerist individualism. And “any sort of systemic analysis” would require consideration of what is genuinely individual experience and/ or freedom and what is consumerist garbage. Which seems to be exactly what a lot of people are determinedly avoiding. I suppose they don’t have the background of the generally socialist 60s culminating in the “revolutions” of 68 as well as the anti-nuclear, anti-Vietnam War movements that many 2nd wave feminists came from. But then, neither did the gloves and hat wearing mothers of the Vietnam War protests nor the genuinely wealthy and privileged women who got down and dirty alongside the factory workers of the feminist movement back then.
Speaking from my jaundiced perspective, and I might add, studiously avoiding 3rd wave tumblr style “feminism”, I find this allinthemind, sanctimonious policing of other people’s words and thoughts to be the antithesis of everything I did and everything I gained from my own feminist thinking.
I think part of the problem I have with some of this stuff is that feminism and socialism have always been closely aligned for me (though socialism will often let you down, from a feminist perspective, because socialist men grew up in the same misogyny-saturated environment that conservative men did), so the idea of a consumerist feminism that doesn’t give a shit about class issues except as yet another thing to call people out on as a way of scoring Best Feminist points is hard for me to wrap my head around, and has no emotional resonance at all.
I also struggle to understand why people take generalized analysis that points out that certain things are either not helpful or actively harmful to the status of women as a group so damn personally. Hey, I shave various bits too! That doesn’t mean that I don’t acknowledge that I’m doing so a. because my culture has taught me to prefer the look and feel of shaved bits, and b. because doing so is easier than not doing so, in terms of how other people treat me. General discussions of shaving as an issue aren’t an attack on my personal choices, and most of the people having those discussions don’t really give a shit what I as an individual do, they’re talking about broad cultural trends and what those trends mean, so why would I get bent out of shape about those discussions? And yet, many people do.
Rinse and repeat for an almost infinite number of issues, and watch people waste a whole lot of time fighting about this shit and somehow arriving at the conclusion that the greatest threat to women’s freedom, safety, and general happiness is the fact that some feminists have opinions about shaving or sex work or whatever that they consider to be insufficiently supportive of their personal choices. Watch that point whoosh right over people’s heads, just don’t take a drink for every time it happens or you’ll end up with alcohol poisoning.
I have a similar take, although if memory serves the personal is political was simply a way to express that issues that had always been viewed and dismissed as personal were when experienced by half the population very much political issues. They are still categorized as lesser by being referred to as women’s issues, but they are effing issues now rather than personal problems.
That sounds like a personal problem. To this day that phrase makes the sound of a gauntlet hitting the floor.
This is what I do like about 3rd wavers who do actually grok the importance of intersectionality. They understand that socioeconomic status is an axis of privilege, like race, like gender, like disability. The ones who can’t look beyond issues that affect them personally do piss me off, because they’re missing the point so hard and kicking down.
And yeah, playing I’m The Most Progressive is such a stupid way to cannibalise allies. There’s a huge difference between “hey, you’re doing this thing that’s hurting the people you’re trying to help – do better” and “you’re a traitor to the cause and must be shunned for making a mistake!”.
Not sure how this link will work here, but the addy leads to a video of them singing one of the songs in question. Beautiful music.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/music-news/11126604/Choral-music-not-heard-since-era-of-Henry-VIII-has-been-played-for-first-time-in-500-years.html
That’s how I always understood the phrase, too.
Happy Thanksgiving, fellow Canadians.
My family is super small and divided so we did a very little thanksgiving dinner at my dad’s house last night with he, his brother and dad, myself, my sister and my ex who’s family and a wonderful dude everyone loves so he gets invited.
Uncle and grandpa are alcoholics. I always get strict instructions not to drive the drunks home. They can come over and get shitfaced but if they’re going to engage in that behaviour they’ll pay for their cab ride home as opposed to us providing a chauffeur service.
Uncle walked home and he was kinda sobered up by the time he left so that was just fine. Grandpa called for a cab. He’s eighty-ish, astoundingly healthy for someone who takes such poor care of themself and entirely independent so we don’t supervise or coddle him.
BANG! The fuck was that? My ex goes running towards the direction my grandpa was headed in.
My drunken grandfather has fallen down the two steps to the front door and is collapsed on his back in the entryway.
He was fine, his ego bruised far worse than his body. My sister was HORRIFIED though and became completely paternalistic, insisting we somehow force our grandfather to start taking care of himself (as if that’s possible.) My dad just followed him out and waited for his cab with him. I didn’t know WTF to do so I just kinda chortled and shook my head. If this is how he wants to spend the rest of his life I don’t feel I have any business telling him not to.
And that was my Thanksgiving!
Wow! Now I’m sorry that I went to bed and missed this conversation! (I’m also sorry if I talked about myself too much, it’s just that I lack education in certain regards and find it easiest to make my points via anecdote).
The personal can be political at times, but only if it’s examined. I mean, if you shave or wear make-up or whatever because it’s what everyone does and then scream “my choice”, have you really made a choice, or just bought into class and consumerist expectations and then covered your butt? Also, one can never (IMHO) escape class. I’m a socialist-type because of where I was born, class wise, but yeah, cassandrakitty, some of those old school socialists who “don’t see” gender issues (or race issues, depending on who they are) will inevitably disappoint.
This! This right here! And then they add insult to injury by being all condescending and telling the marginalised group how they think “It really is”! I once had a very serious young woman tell me that I knew nothing of the plight of working class women. All I could do was sputter and then laugh at her assertion. But, her parents were both professors, see, and socialists, so clearly she knew more about the theory of working class life than someone who was born working class. Maybe I should have been flattered that she hadn’t noticed the stench of barnyard wafting off me? Or maybe I failed the purity test because my dad was a farmer (and owned his land) instead of a factory worker in the inner city?
Hey, marinerachel, happy Thanksgiving. You’ve had more family merry making than I can stand! Glad your grandfather wasn’t hurt.
I don’t have too much to add that wasn’t already said, but I’m glad people here have a similar view and understand.
I think the “all choices are feminist” and every criticism is “shaming” brand of feminism can definitely prevent one from making the personal political if they so desire. For example, as someone with an ED history I tend to be critical of unrealistically thin standard of beauty set by Hollywood and the fashion industry. Inevitably someone on Jezebel will tell me I’m “skinny shaming” (no) which is just as bad as fat shaming (false equivalence). They can’t or don’t want to see that criticizing a beauty standard that can be very harmful (maybe by design as Naomi Wolf theorizes in the Beauty Myth) is not the same as making fun of an individual woman for being skinny which is not something I do. The “skinny shaming” accusation is being used as a way to silence people from having an important discussion about a topic that effects the lives of a lot of women.
Agreed, WWTH. the (insert thing)-shaming accusation is nothing but a silencing tactic. We can even see it at play in gamer gate with the latest manifesto that David had his (poor, confused) kitties read. Dudebro-shaming! “Misogyny is a real thing, but if you call harassers and abusers misogynists, you’re misapplying the term and minimising it! You SJW are the real misogynists!”
The purity tester types don’t seem to understand that me choosing differently than someone else is not me saying the other person is totes rong! The personal often is political, but that doesn’t mean criticising the political is attacking the personal.
So earlier this month I spent a few nights on a buffalo hunting camp a few meters away from a crocodile den. I think I win being Australian.
Intersectionality is definitely a good thing as a rule. However, I have seen it used to essentially co-opt feminist energy for other things, and I’m kind of getting tired of it.
It’s not like these other things are not worthy causes. They totally are! Racism? Definitely a problem that requires work! Gay rights? Absolutely a worthy cause! And there’s no issue when intersectionality is applied properly. I am, however, about out of patience when “intersectionality” is used to blur the lines between feminism and the movements that address these other problems and lump them all together into one big blob.
Whenever that occurs – and it has occurred so. many. times. since long before the term “intersectionality” was coined – feminism is always the cause that loses out. All the energy and effort is diverted into these other causes (which, again, are worthy causes but are not feminism) and women wind up holding the bag at the end. And that includes the women who were experiencing the intersectional forces in the first place: black women, gay women, etc. Black men and gay men get what they need, and women are left in the cold.
Absolutely. I can’t say how many times I’ve seen men make the claim that feminism isn’t necessary because white women have white privilege and often participate in racism.
It’s true that white women are often racist and often choose to benefit as much as they can by sucking up to the white patriarchy. But the existence of those women doesn’t mean that misogyny ceases to exist. White women still need feminism even though we’re privileged in other ways.
It also of course completely ignores that WOC need feminism and experience misogyny as well as racism.
Pointing out that feminism as a movement has often catered to straight white upper class cis women is important. The discussion is a necessary part of feminism and intersectionality is necessary. Unfortunately, those who oppose feminism have caught wind of this discussion and are using it as a weapon against us.
I’m actually kind of brought to mind here the alliance between abolitionism and first-wave feminism during the 1840s-1860s. Many feminists saw parallels between sexism and racism, but focused on slavery as the more-urgent problem (even the racist white feminists agreed that slavery was bad, for not the best reasons). When the Civil War was over, male abolitionists by and large said Mission Accomplished! Our work is done here! and went their own way.
Feminists had sort of expected that black men would give a shit about women? On the grounds that men who had experienced slavery could empathize? Yeah, that didn’t happen. Immediately following the Civil War, there was a sense, especially in the South, that full political, social and economic equality for black men was going to be attained within a decade; there was very little to indicate that 100 years of Jim Crow lay in the future. So, expecting that they would have equality soon, black men were not very fussed about franchising women.
There was a schism in feminism between white and black feminists from the beginning, but it really broke apart when black feminists realized that they seriously were going to have to choose between fighting sexism and fighting racism, because black men didn’t care (they had theirs, as far as they knew at the time) and most white feminists were racist. That was a really shitty situation. And it’s one that has repeated down through history. And I see it ongoing today. And it’s wearying.
Well, you definitely have my vote. Not an Australian though, so it might not count.
RE: feminisms. I was a baby feminist in the late 80’s and early 90’s, and I did read a bunch of feminist tracts, and got on board with the God Was a Woman movement (which was highly enjoyable to me–I actually owned Goddess Remembered on VHS). The 90’s were really pretty awesome, feminism-wise.
There’s been so much pushback since then, and I think (North American) people got sidetracked by illegal wars, and massive, wide-spread banking fraud, and economic disaster, and train-wreck politics. So, while all this more entertaining stuff was happening, a bunch of people co-opted the movement and turned it into this weird and uncomfortable police state. Leaving women holding the bag again, because women’s needs ALWAYS come last, and we need to be reasonable , and sacrifice our needs for the good of the larger group, etc.
So now there are Women Against Feminists, and Ladies Against Women, and Girls Against Females, or what have you. We keep saying that the women against feminism don’t understand what feminism is, but if what they understand feminism to be is this facile, bullshit, Tumblr version of it, I can’t really blame them for rejecting it.
And happy Turkey day! The bird is going in the brine this afternoon, and my brother’s roasting it up tomorrow. I’m bringing home-made pickles from last year and some kind of dessert.
I have linked here to a fb account of an Alaskan ex-navy guy who mocks American politics.
Okay, first responses, then next one will be actually engaging with where the convo is now.
RE: Kittehs
Shit shit and extra shit about the ceiling. What the hell are the building owners doing about this?
Welllll, right now there’s a wooden T holding up the ceiling. And they said they were fixing it, but I was out all night at an event at Mac’s church, so not sure what’s happening. (Kinda afraid to ask, honestly.) I figure either it gets fixed soon, or we end up vamoosing.
Was Boston good overall, despite your conflicting feelings?
Yes! We had a great time seeing everybody and getting a lot of comics and just general enjoyment. It was a nice change of pace from the stampeding horrorshow, though fatigue is probably contributing to my AAAARGH feelings.
I read Nimona last night.
Just finished it today! Kid adored it. (But then, she WOULD have feelings about teenage monster girls being horribly misused by the adults around her.)
RE: Cassandrakitty
Are you guys still in this apartment or somewhere else temporarily?
Still in the apartment. Our room, of course, is totally fine. I feel quite bad for the roomies. (ESPECIALLY since one of the roommates had to go to the emergency room, might have tendon damage for something completely unrelated, and is now sick on top of it.)
If he tries to keep your deposit I’d threaten him with either a lawyer or the local tenant org, if you have one.
Already on it! (Even though ironically, legally I’m not supposed to HAVE that money even if I got it back because disability means I am legally obligated to remain poor. But that’s what friends are for. Fuck if I’m going to obey the rule that says I can only own $2K in assets; if I become homeless again, I want to be PREPARED.)
Can I just say how fucked up this is? Because it’s seriously fucked up. I can see having a rule where if you make more than $XXX per year, or are independently wealthy, then you’re not eligible for the finite resources available for people who are not physically (or mentally) capable of holding down a job with a living wage. But why not set the bar at, I dunno, a living wage? Why limit how much a person is able to scrounge away into savings?
Like, every money-minder advice I’ve ever heard has said, have at least $10K set aside for emergency funds. $2K will NOT cover very many financial emergencies.
Honestly, most gender theory I’ve been hearing through teh internetz meshes pretty badly with the trans and multi bit. I’m male, so I must have male privilege. How does that apply when I am specifically read as female, or as some alien being? (Which is how I mostly get harassed; people HATE gender ambiguity.) How is our privilege affected when we switch? Does Sneak get gender privilege or not, since zie isn’t a boy or girl, but gets read always as female? All of the sexual abuse we experienced, it was specifically in a female-gendered way. But I also hear about tons of douchey trans guys taking over feminism and so do not want to join the contingent. It’s just brain-breaking.
I actually briefly (VERY briefly) considered sex work in New Zealand, where it was legal. I was having trouble finding work, and the sex worker I knew was making more than I’d ever made in my life. (Probably still is.) However, in the end, my own mental illness won out; I knew that I would never be able to do the work. Still, there was a piece of me so angry that I couldn’t do it; people had already used my body for free, and now I couldn’t even CHARGE them for the privilege? FUCK.
The other sex worker I knew was trans. She had basically been shoved out of the workforce by that, plus a temperament that wasn’t suited for most traditional work. She told me that sex work was one of the few things she was okay with; honestly, it was probably the least bad option for her.
Most of the complaints I’ve heard from sex workers has been less, “but I’m totally happy doing this!” it’s, “people who have never experienced what I have, who will never do the work I do, telling me that I’m wrong about my own experiences and this is how I should feel about it.” Or just being treated like shit because of their work. (The woman making money, who invited me to a party, told me that she had trouble finding housing because basically they refused to believe she could pay her rent, despite reality.)
RE: Unimaginative
Like, every money-minder advice I’ve ever heard has said, have at least $10K set aside for emergency funds. $2K will NOT cover very many financial emergencies.
Yup, and you know who’s likely to have many financial emergencies? Disabled people, when their health fails.
The system is just incredibly fucked up. I’m also paying the highest taxes I ever have because I’m self-employed; of my meager earnings, I have to cough up 30% in taxes. Ignoring taxes, disability plus my income means I almost scrape up to the poverty line. I honestly can’t imagine ever having more money than this.
I am immensely proud that I’ve managed to make my emergency savings goal so quickly. I also try to shut up about it, because I worry people will think I’m being stingy and that I should be contributing more, and that I’m being unreasonable for wanting a year’s worth stockpiled at all times. I just can’t shake the awareness that my home might explode, or my disability axed, requiring another year plus of application. The Homeless Year was terrifying, and I never want to endure that again.