Never doubt the ingenuity of the internet’s misogynists in coming up with new reasons to hate a woman they’re already inclined to hate.
Actress and geek icon Emma Watson has been near the top of the new Misogyny hate list all this week, in the wake of the speech she gave at the UN gently praising feminism and suggesting that traditional gender roles aren’t always such a good thing for dudes either. She’s made this point before, declaring in a Tweet last month that
Gender equality not only liberates women but also men from prescribed gender stereotypes. #heforshe
— Emma Watson (@EmmaWatson) August 18, 2014
But wait, the Red Pillers of the internet declare: Watson is herself dating a hunky jock rather than a “bald scrawny impoverished poet.”
WHERE IS YOUR FEMINISM NOW?
According to the UK’s Daily Mirror, Watson is currently dating a fellow Oxford student who also happens to be 1) gigantic 2) a rugby player and 3) handsome. As The Mirror put it
Matt was dubbed Oxford’s most eligible bachelor and was previously named the best looking player in his on-field position by the university rugby team’s Twitter account.
I know, you’re probably not exactly shocked – shocked! – to discover that a famous actress is dating a handsome dude. But in the Red Pill precincts of the internet, the regulars think they’ve got their CHECKMATE FEMINISM.
Right wing “journalist” and blogger Robert Stacey McCain triumphantly cackled
All the hot babes like Emma Watson are crazy for guys who don’t fit “prescribed gender stereotypes,” right? So you will probably be surprised to learn that Emma Watson is dating a
bald scrawny impoverished poetthe biggest jock at an elite university. …In other words, an Alpha male, the epitome of “prescribed gender stereotypes” from which Emma Watson says we need to be liberated.
Smart young fellows figure out that listening to what women say is less important than watching what women do. Women are constantly saying they want sensitive Ashley Wilkes types, even while they’re actually going crazy for the Rhett Butler types. …
When all is said and done, the basic human sex instinct is still as simple as, “Me Tarzan, you Jane.”
On the Red Pill subreddit, the regulars celebrated what they saw as a great victory over feminism. Redpillbanana seconded McCain’s “analysis.”
As a man in our new feminist world, you are liberated from your gender stereotype and have permission to be vulnerable and human. And women have permission to dump you for the next nearby alpha male who decided that he doesn’t need to be liberated from his gender stereotype.
Other Red Pillers made sure that everyone knew that they didn’t think Emma Watson was all that hot anyway.
WOULD NOT BANG.
Meanwhile, proudly racist, woman-hating dating guru Heartiste offered these, er, thoughts on the matter, in his trademark, er, style:
Feminism long ago abandoned any pretense to logic or internal consistency. It’s nothing but feels all day, every day, with an extra helping of feels. Watson’s rationalization hamster, like most rodents residing in the brains of her callow ilk, is 700% thigh and 800% glutes. A swole spinner on the wheel of ego-masturbation.
Ok then.
So how do you respond to this sort of thing? Point out that Watson was previously dating a guy who most Red Pillers would probably consider a big ol beta? Post examples of conventionally hot actresses who’ve dated “nerds” and intellectuals and otherwise not stereotypically macho men – from Marilyn Monroe (playwright Arthur Miller) to Christina Hendricks (nerdy actor Geoffrey Arend, who’s not even as famous as her).
But what’s the point? All you have to do is step outside to see examples of happy couples who don’t fit the “me Tarzan, you Jane” stereotype the Red Pillers are so desperate to assure us is the One True Way.
The human heart and libido are complicated things. Yes, some feminist women date macho dudes. And some traditional women are drawn to nerds. Some women date men who make more money than them; others date guys who are broke. And a lot of women don’t have clear “types” at all. (Watson doesn’t seem to.)
It’s also worth pointing out that, well, you can’t always judge a book by its cover. A gigantic rugby player who is ferocious on the field may be a teddy bear in private. And scrawny nerdy dudes can be horrible people (e.g. Woody Allen).
Feminism doesn’t deny that some women – including some feminists — are drawn to macho men. What feminism says is that traditional gender roles are not the only way to do things.
Emma Watson can date whatever kind of person she wants to date. It’s her own damn business. That’s feminism.
What cassandrakitty said, Shadow_Nirvana. It’s not that I think you’re being a dick on purpose, but reading your comments here is just a little odd.
Your kneejerk reaction is insensitive, and strange. You feel momentarily ashamed for having that reaction with the knowledge that it could happen to most anyone (it did happen to you).
You’re trying not to have that reaction.
… yay?
That’s good, keep at it, have a happy life, live long and prosper. All that. You’re just not really saying anything or adding anything or livening anything up. And why even bring it up in the first place, and even more so specifically with the intro of “Livening things up”? That’s just weird, man. What discussion do you want to have? What questions do you wish to ask? What is your perspective on that link by Unimaginative? You haven’t actually posed anything in an attempt to go on about anything, or brought anything up. If you’ve got something on your mind, I’m happy to hear, and you’re welcome to share it, but the first step there is having some practical or actual or hypothethical to say, that you say, and not just… “And then I realized blaming people for being in bad relationships is a strange reaction!”
As weirwoodtreehugger finely said:
And that’s just wrong, chummer.
My recommendation is such
I’ll put it in verse
This makes me practice
Being what people call “terse”
Step one in our lesson
(Don’t worry, it’s free)
Will simply be simple
(No 200 usd transfered to me!)
(Alas)
You seem to be able to put in perspective your common affective scheme of things
I’ll point out it’s a structure in the seeming of things
you go from a to c, like a chart, and it shows
maybe you should consider not mapping emotions like water flows
Don’t feel bad to feel bad, feel what you must
it works better with heart-trust
Attempt to be honest with yourself, just then
when asking when
“I feel this way, to my dismay, how come, what for, what’s the interjection of my mind that makes these things fall thus aligned?”
Your emotions are responses to the things that you do
and they’re going to be what they end up as, too
Try to not be the kind of lad who feels bad just to reap points with others
Do it because something happens, and it REALLY FUCKING BOTHERS
If you try thus, you’ll find it’s your life you get to live
and not a robot responding with cues dictacted by others.
People are people! Women are too! And people will do what people now do
They dance and their prance and sometimes they chance
to take the chance of asking for a dance with someone they’ve looked at
don’t look at that askance
There’s not much else to say, beyond that
I’ve run out of rhyming tricks in my hat
What wisdom I offer in this little ditty
Is just that you’re probably fine,
but next time – to be witty
you’re better of not leading with what boils down to “Women exist, you guys, it’s true! I discovered just now I have feelings about that, too”
That’ll go over about as well
as opening a ski-ing resort in the eight circle of Hell
(It’s apt by way of Dante
since that’s where the Fradulent go
the people who do knowing evil and knowtow
to bad deeds for little gain but their own boners)
I’m not ready to go off on Shadow Nirvana yet. Must be the meds.
Abusers are really good at what they do…well, not all of them.
The really high-level ones, though, can play the legal system and the mental health system against their victims.
…Since one of the other places I visit regularly is an emotional and physical abuse support forum, I get to be one of the “get-out!” Greek Chorus. There are guys posting there who are battered husbands.
…And having been married to an emotionally abusive spouse?
They erode you so that you feel helpless.
I really thought that I couldn’t leave her and survive…and I was miserable with her, so suicide…Um, would have happened at one point, had she not trigger-locked my pistol.
My spouse was…really only mildly abusive, because in her own mind she needs to believe she is a good, fair person? So she could have been way worse.
@Shadow_Nirvana
I want to take a moment and look at the post you made before you livened things up (are they lively enough for you now?):
I want you to look at this and unpack everything you have in here.
“Why do you want to be with the type of woman who clamors for assholes anyway?” What “type” of woman are you talking about? What are the characteristics of these women who clamor for assholes? “why would you want to be with such a woman? Why would you be sad that such a woman isn’t interested in you?” What are the characteristics of “such women”? What was going through your mind when you made these constructions?
These are not questions you need to answer for me. You owe me nothing. However, I believe you should think about them and answer them for yourself.
In focusing squarely on the characteristics of the women and not the characteristics of the author of that post, you are clearly implying here that there is something wrong with these women, something defective about them. Given that this was inspired by that post, it is not unreasonable for a reader to conclude that you agree with Mr. Nice Guy, not only that there is something wrong with these women, but as to the nature of what is wrong with them (that they are stupid, and also mysterious and unknowable and possibly some kind of quantum phenomenon, but mainly stupid).
It may be helpful for you to take a step back, decide what your thesis actually is, and examine your reasons and supporting arguments for it. Right now your thesis is muddled and your reasoning seems victim-blamey.
RE: WWTH
It’s gotten almost impossible to watch a movie starring a male protagonist that gets the girl at the end because it’s almost always framed in a way that suggests a woman is a reward for either personal growth or succeeding at something.
Ugh, I HATE that so much. In one of my series, I actually chose to have a nerd boy/jock boy/vague girlthing love triangle… with the nerd boy at the center. It ends in a poly relationship where he gets two dates, not as a reward for personal growth but because they mutually decide that’d be worth trying. Plus, it was kind of a deprogramming for myself; I wanted to write a sweet awkward geek boy who actually WAS all those things.
RE: Shadow_Nirvana
I really think you’d be best served by shutting up, pal. Seriously, first rule of holes.
I have dealt with PLENTY of people who thought I was somehow stupid, inferior, or being an ice queen by getting raped when I was younger and then refusing to date THEM. I have no patience for people realizing, “Hey, that’s an asshole reaction of me!” I don’t even get what the hell you want from us. Sympathy? Advice? Regardless, I’m not interested in giving any at this time.
See, I just told my younger brother about the incest a couple days ago, and his IMMEDIATE response was, “That didn’t happen. The entire trip you said he did this to you on, it did not happen.” And I then had to explain to him all the proof I had that the trip Kid got molested on actually existed. (And despite this, I STILL felt that gaslighty, reality-warping sensation, where for a moment I worried we’d fabricated ten year old blog entries and journal entries.)
I just sent a letter to my granny about this, and am expecting, awaiting a similar response. So yeah, my energy for your feelings about your own kneejerk douchery right now? Nill.
Since the person says Henry is their patient I am guessing that the only thing they have to go on is what Henry says. Why in the world They are taking Henry’s word for the situation is a puzzler.
Still, the reason I wanted to comment is this:
Like Henry this person is waving a big red flag. Why do you suppose people laugh at this unreliable narrator when he asks someone out?
Who is constantly teasing and mocking them and why?
How do these people know he is a virgin?
Does this person live in an abusive family situation or are they as unreliable a narrator as Henry?
I love how dude is pretending that nobody noticed the things he said before he decided to liven things up, and that the impression of him formed by those things couldn’t possibly have an impact on how his later statements were read.
Benefit of the doubt? You don’t deserve it either, dude, not after the comment that Policy of Madness threw back at you.
Ahhh LBT, all the hugs you want whenever you want them.
@ LBT
I hope your granny at least is more supportive. If she isn’t, though, you already know why (it’s easier for people to ignore this shit than to confront it), and that any negative response from her doesn’t mean that you’re wrong to feel the way you do or to have attempted to reach out to her.
RE: thebewilderness
I am guessing that the only thing they have to go on is what Henry says. Why in the world They are taking Henry’s word for the situation is a puzzler.
A lot of people, unfortunately, make the mistake of taking a confirmed abuser at their word. And part of being an abuser, often, involves minimizing, denying, and rationalizing all bad behavior. Which the people around them then adopt, often without consciously realizing it. Therapists often try to empathize with their patients, and abusers use that empathy to their benefit.
This is actually the reason I REFUSE to do family therapy with our parents. I’m basically positive a therapist would feel required to give them the “benefit of the doubt” and next thing you know, it’s back to Disneyland for me!
RE: thebewilderness
Ahhh LBT, all the hugs you want whenever you want them.
Thanks. Like, it’s okay, if our family was good at being supportive, I wouldn’t have ended up homeless in the first place, it was just unpleasant. It’s so surreal; our brother is less than two years younger than us, but his experience in the family was just so completely different. It’s bizarre!
RE: cassandrakitty
I hope your granny at least is more supportive.
*shrug* It’s been over a week now, and no response. I’m just telling myself that at this point, losing one more relative won’t be any big hardship. I don’t need her. I don’t need any of them. Fuck ’em.
That’s a thing that happens? Oh god. That’s wrong on so many levels I can’t quite compute it in my head. My sympathies, they are legion.
My point was that even though I went through something similar, I have to come to this realisation consciously. Maybe this is something people who speak insensitively towards victims lack? That realisation?
…But how the hell do you teach empathy?
One of the cognitive things that block empathy is the “Just world fallacy”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis
So…*brain sputters*
The person who blames any victim for being victimized is, in essence, saying: “Well, I would never be so stupid/weak/foolish/et cetera as to allow someone to do that to me!”
…That is an erroneous assumption.
None of us really have that level of control over our own lives. The people who don’t realize how little control they really have actually tend to be happier, though.
Just because I understand all that, does that make me any happier to hear victim-blaming? No.
RE: Fibinachi
That’s a thing that happens? Oh god.
Very much so. ESPECIALLY when it comes to our family. (Which is even more hilarious, since half the family played rape babysitter to the pedophilic patriarch, as Kid calls him, and at least two of them were molested by him as well.)
At this point, I now just take it as a matter of course that when I tell someone we were raped, they’ll respond with a variation of, “How could you let that happen?” so much so that I made a page about it in our FAQ comic. It is probably the most common response to my disclosure I’ve ever had.
This is also why I CAN NOT do Rape 101 with anybody. I deal with enough, “BUT HOW COULD YOU LET HIM?” in my daily life. I have no interest and no stamina to face it anywhere else.
Fuck that goddamn douchebag!
I fucking believe Kid, and I believe you. You’re NOT making this shit up.
RE: blahlistic
Like I’d WANT to make that up! But that’s their family for you. The way they act, you’d think nobody ever got touched in the naughty bits ever there, rather than the whole family was in on it.
Never going back there. I’m glad they kicked them out while I was dead. I’m only sorry they’ll never get to hear what I really think of them.
–Kid
Wanna hear something really sad? Before Kid even disclosed what had happened, when you first started talking about bad memories surfacing and trying to get it all figured out, I knew what it was going to turn out to be about. Because it’s just that common a pattern, and given the way you’d already described the family dynamics at work, it was basically just a question of who specifically the abuser would turn out to be.
@Shadow_Nirvana
Look, that person isn’t an “expert at finding love”, he’s expert at victimizing people. He’s a crook and a criminal and is probably re-applying his one strategy over and over again on god knows how many women.
Nobody’s ever said “How could you let him?” to me…That’s ridiculous anyway!
I mean, what, a small child is supposed to physically fight off a grown man?!?! WTF?
The one I hate is when people ask if I’ve forgiven my dad or still talk to him. No.
@dainty dougal (re: rugby) – Yes, who’d have thought the straight players would be able to cope without hissy fits? They’re certainly ahead of the US curve.
I was never really one for team sports, but, if I’d been the size of Mark Labbett, I think rugby would definitely have agreed with me (perhaps too well). And it seems one could make a case that the straightest men in team sports ought to be ice dancers.
***
I just realized this afternoon how wrong my preconceived expectations of what PUAs and MRAs would say about G/B men have proven to be. I really thought PUAs would approve of male same-sex attraction in others, recalling Cracker and why Jimmy Beck didn’t mind gays though he disliked lesbians (two gays getting together meant two women going spare, but two lesbians getting together meant two men going short – a loathsome sentiment quite well matched to the character expressing it). I think I underestimated how wanting a thinner pool against which to compete was Not Alpha. I was a little closer to the MRA mindset, as some of them do voice the blithe assumption that gay men must hate women because sexual attraction is the only reason to have anything to do with them. But they aren’t trying to recruit us, which could be because they really want to go back to the 1950s (if not to Bedrock) where we just don’t fit, so that we can’t be on their team. I came closest in my expectation of MGTOW envy. Some of them are consistent with envy even if they won’t own it. And a small point to their credit is that they don’t think sexual orientation is a choice (to judge by the energy some of them are expending trying to turn themselves asexual – though what did the poor As ever do to deserve their association?). But even there I missed what seems almost a Roman Catholic emphasis on renunciation – similar to how priests have to be straight because they have to have given up what the RCC sees as genuinely valuable lives.
I suppose it’s really reassuring not to be able to succeed at getting into the mind set.
I don’t know? Thrill seekers? Women who themselves are bigoted and assholish?
My point with that wasn’t related to the other discussion though. One of the main themes in Red Pill literature is the women who write loveletters to convicts and the likes(Heartiste has posts about this very phenomenon, or the female guardians who had sex with a druglord convict and one of them got pregnant). That’s why I mentioned them also in that post. Then I realised that this wasn’t really relevant to slatestarcodex link. Hence the clarification.
RE: cassandrakitty
Before Kid even disclosed what had happened, when you first started talking about bad memories surfacing and trying to get it all figured out, I knew what it was going to turn out to be about.
Kid: Psh. It wasn’t exactly rocket science. Everyone had figured it out even before the brain would let me say it outright. A child-molester, molesting children! WHO COULD’VE EVER FORESEEN THIS SHOCKING TURN OF EVENTS? Truly I am shocked, SHOCKED! Fetch me my fainting couch, I never could’ve seen this twist coming!
RE: blahlistic
I mean, what, a small child is supposed to physically fight off a grown man?!?! WTF?
The one I hate is when people ask if I’ve forgiven my dad or still talk to him. No.
Kid: I love the whole ‘forgive’ thing. What it really means is, “So, are you going to pretend nothing ever happened and stop inconveniencing us with the truth now?” NOPE! Sorry, adults! Just because you like living is a dreamworld Disneyland doesn’t mean I do!
In other words, women who are defective. Do you understand how much you are saying about yourself with statements like this?
This pretty much puts an end to anyone here extending this dude even the teeniest bit of benefit of the doubt, right?
You should go back to GWWs page, dude, you’d get along much better with her than with most people here.
I know a commenter who gets on everybody’s nerves, everybody’s nerves, everybody’s nerves, I know a commenter who gets on everybody’s nerves and this is how he goes:
“Maybe some women just REALLY REALLY LIKE people who hit them, and clamor for them, and are actually jerks themselves!”
Next verse, same chorus.
–Kid
Yes, Red Pillers will seize on the fact that convicted serial killers get love letters to prove :: something, mumble, something :: about women, in spite of the fact that the vast majority of women actually alive at any moment in time are not writing love letters to convicted serial killers and such a thing couldn’t be further from their thoughts.
That says a hell of a lot more about Red Pillers than it does about women.
——————-
LBT, so sorry about the terrible family, and of course The Kid is telling the truth. I’m sending you a big basket of kittens.