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advocacy of violence alpha males antifeminism are these guys 12 years old? bad boys beta males creepy dark enlightenment domestic violence doubling down emotional abuse empathy deficit evil sexy ladies evil SJWs excusing abuse gaslighting heartiste men who should not ever be with women ever PUA red pill taking pleasure in women's pain victim blaming

You'll be horrified to learn where one popular pickup guru has found some, er, dating tips

The Duluth Power and Control Wheel
The Duluth Power and Control Wheel

Heartiste – real name James Wiedmann – is a proudly racist, woman-hating “pickup artist” guru known for advocating manipulative and often quite abusive “game” techniques to give men the upper hand in relationships and in the dating market. These run the gamut from emotional abuse – what he calls “dread game,” an elaborate portfolio of gaslighting ploys to keep women feeling insecure and off-balance – to straightforward physical abuse – slapping women “when necessary” to assert “alpha male” dominance.

Now he’s suggesting that wannabe lotharios borrow some tips on how to “game” women from the Duluth Power and Control Wheel, a widely used violence intervention tool designed to fight abuse, not provide a blueprint for it.

The Duluth Wheel highlights some of the most prevalent kinds of abusive behavior. Heartiste mines its descriptions of abuse for dating tips, claiming to find in it “a few curious nuggets of anti-feminist truth about relationships and how to keep them going.”

In his recent post, Heartiste goes through some of the descriptions of abusive behavior on the Duluth Wheel – and recasts them as handy tools for would-be “alpha males.”

“make her feel bad and guilty” — reframing.

“play mind games” — that’s one way to provoke a vaginal gusher.

“smash things” — occasional bursts of anger, when justified, are cues of sexy male dominance and they do turn on women. …

“threaten to leave her” — dread game. …

“take her money” — aka make a woman feel like she’s invested in you. she’ll try harder to make it work.

“be the one to define men’s and women’s roles” — chicks dig a leader. and they also dig benevolently sexist men! …

“treat her like a servant” — 50 Shades of Gray has sold millions of copies. To women.

His followers are, if anything, even more enthusiastic about adopting these abusive tactics to their dating life.

“[T]hanks for the road map,” writes dog king. “[A] handy chart for aspiring alphas,” notes Laguna Beach Fogey, also an occasional commenter on The Spearhead. “Much Thanks CH,” adds Ang Aamer. “It’s posts like these that turn the Femi-Matrix Vag monologues into decipherable ideas we can use.”

One commenter calling himself maldek offers a personal testimonial, claiming to have used the tactics on the Duluth Wheel to keep his wife of 20 years on her toes:

This is a female wishlist indeed.
Take it word by word.

Most of the listed items are things I do on a regular base. I mean it. And for more than 20 years it is working. Wife is looking top 5% in her age group, 3 kids, good life.

IT DOES WORK!

PS: That is 200% true for the darker parts of this list, you know the points those white knights would want to burn you on stake for. These are magic.

A commenter by the name of J Fisc seconds this endorsement.

This is an instruction manual for how to keep your woman happy. My marriage was doing pretty shitty until I said ‘Fuck it’ and started acting ‘abusive’. At least half the things on this list I do regularly and she eats its up.

One reader calling himself zaltyskaralius explains a favorite technique he (allegedly) uses to anger and excite the women – sorry, girls — in his life:

In the theme of brilliant game moves that bring the moist looks of indignation from girls, one of my old friends: The “Touchdown”:

When a girl says something (incredibly) stupid, interrupt and ask her if she knows what “touchdown” means.

Ignore her lack of football knowledge, shake your head and proceed to tell her that it has another meaning, as you put your hand on her shoulder with a grin on your face. Ask her if she has ever heard of Down’s syndrome. Tell her that it’s a tradition in your friend circle, that once someone says something not-so-very-smart, you proceed to do a “Touch-Down”. If she doesn’t get it, do another “touchdown”.

Congratulations, you just got a “pass this shit-test and collect tingles” card for the particular girl. From that moment on, anytime she says anything you dislike or throws a shit test at you, all you will have to do is simply place your hand on her shoulder and give her a knowing look, every so often muttering “touchdown” under your breath. No effort, no thinking, just a little touch.

Great move for AMOG [Alpha Male of the Group] friends as well. Great move for everyone in the know.

Luckily I think the chance that he’s actually used this “great move” on anyone outside of his own imagination is roughly zero.

Heartiste seems to think that the Duluth Wheel was conjured up by some Social Justice Warrior on Twitter. Only one of his commenters – at least only one that I noticed – admits to knowing where it really comes from.

“They made me memorize that graphic in a class i had to take because a broad said i hit her,” writes monster221.

Needless to say, he seems not to have learned anything from that class, noting that the experience convinced him

that i should act however i want and let them come and go. … Lifes great when its onyour terms, fuck anybody who tells you how to handle your shit.

Somehow I suspect that the “broad” who says he hit her was telling the truth.

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kittehserf - MOD
kittehserf - MOD
6 years ago

Michelle – lizards with hats and ‘taches are already a thing on the internet (but of course):

http://th00.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2012/359/a/4/sir_lizard_by_karatechick13-d5p6ph0.jpg

LOL to seeing Gorn as your Sims pic. Is it going up in the same house that has a certain other person’s picture in it? That could become The House of Somewhat Springsteen Related Stuff at this rate. (Speaking of Sims, any progress on possibly doing one based on you-know-who?)

Cassie’s Major Domo

Baldrick, am I not mistaken, or are the words “I have a cunning plan” marching with undeserved confidence in the direction of this conversation?

Now that’s just cruel. Baldrick might be a dumbass, but he’d never keep company with JohnTheOtter!

(Okay, not “might be,” is.)

Thread: the thing that always gets me with the notion that abused children invariably become abusers, or are even likely to do so (apart from the “what a load of BS” thing) is that the person closest to me, who was abused as a child, and in a position to do whatever he wanted to his own family … didn’t. Someone whose society would have turned a blind eye even more than ours does, someone literally at the pinnacle of his society … was capable of not repeating that behaviour.

So fuck the idea that it’s inevitable or that people have no agency and no choice in passing on the abuse.

alaisvex
alaisvex
6 years ago

I have found that handshakes are really handy in fending off hugs. IF you can stand the hand-shake, that is. Pre-emptivly sticking out my hand for a handshake stopped quite a few unwanted hugs, without hurting anyone’s feelings. Of course, there’s always the risk they’ll hug you, anyway, but some people are just that determined. The vast majority of people were stopped by the handshake.

I’ve found the same thing to be true. I picked up the preemptive handshake trick in college when I realized that some people keep trying to hug me even after I told them that I didn’t like hugging people whom I’d just met or who were just my acquaintances. I don’t like making physical contact–or even being in noticeably close proximity–with anyone who isn’t a partner, friend, close relative, or otherwise emotionally close to me, and even then, I’m pretty reserved with anyone towards whom I don’t have any romantic or sexual feelings. Huggings fine, and so is doing stuff like sitting close together or accidentally touching, but anything else is just too much of an invasion of my personal bubble. I used to think that I was weird and in the wrong for wanting to maintain personal space, but I knew that having it violated, even accidentally or non-maliciously, upset me a lot and made me shudder, so I started just explaining it to people if they asked why I was being physically reserved (or “cold,” as one guy who was wondering why I didn’t basically grind against him while hugging him put it). Then a couple of them started trying to make me feel weird for feeling that way, so I stopped being sorry about it and developed the handshake method.

blahlistic (@blahlistic)

@ Michelle…My mom actually…realized she was taking her frustrations out on me and roped herself in later on. Unfortunately, by then I had a personality-of-sorts in my head who was modeled on the person my mom was. That personality was and is a very disturbed 7-year-old who was convinced that if I killed myself, she could take over and do everything exactly right.
So for the last…30-some odd years, the voice in my head telling me off and on that I was horrible, worthless, and needed to kill myself…well, I figured out she was a bad copy of my mom.
The kid seems to have gotten the idea that death is a bit more global than just me(the front) dying now, which is a big relief. Also that we’re not perfect and that is ok.
…I think me telling my mom all that would hurt her a lot…and I don’t feel a need to do that, I guess. If it had JUST been mom doing that, I would not have fractured. Making me multiple inside was a group effort.

mildlymagnificent
6 years ago

fibinachi

The Duluth Wheel has problems and as a model it assumes that women are always the victims of domestic violence. That is, as a model, it hard-codes men as the users of violence and women as the sufferers of it.

If you go to the Duluth Wheels website, they have a pretty good explanation for that. http://www.theduluthmodel.org/training/wheels.html

Briefly put, there are significant differences between violence perpetrated by men and women and in the social/cultural background that does and doesn’t support it.

This extract is the most relevant that I could find.

Why isn’t the Power and Control Wheel gender neutral?
The Power and Control Wheel represents the lived experience of women who live with a man who beats them. It does not attempt to give a broad understanding of all violence in the home or community but instead offers a more precise explanation of the tactics men use to batter women. We keep our focus on women’s experience because the battering of women by men continues to be a significant social problem–men commit 86 to 97 percent of all criminal assaults and women are killed 3.5 times more often than men in domestic homicides.

When women use violence in an intimate relationship, the context of that violence tends to differ from men. First, men’s use of violence against women is learned and reinforced through many social, cultural and institutional avenues, while women’s use of violence does not have the same kind of societal support. Secondly, many women who do use violence against their male partners are being battered. Their violence is primarily used to respond to and resist the controlling violence being used against them.

kittehserf - MOD
kittehserf - MOD
6 years ago

Domestic violence isn’t gender neutral, so what would be the point of implying it is? It’s like those *cough* studies *cough* that treat a woman raising her voice and a man hitting her as equal expressions of violence.

blahlistic (@blahlistic)

Just a quick look-around the ‘net….
I did not realize that ” battery” is defined as a pattern of deliberate physical and psychological violence designed to control the partner…
I maintain the physical violence is optional, the same control result can be achieved psychologically.
Men are far more likely to do it to women than vice versa, as in 90% of battery fits that pattern.
Men are more likely to seriously injure their partner during physical abuse.

…I would like to see research about battering women in heterosexual relationships. Not saying that sarcastically, and I mean battering in the sense given above.
I’m not finding it right now, anybody got links?

mildlymagnificent
6 years ago

blahlistic, they’re pretty hard to come by. The best one I found a few weeks ago seems to have vanished from my bookmarks. The reason good studies with the emphasis you’re looking for are so hard to find is that most studies and reports are based on the Conflict Tactics Scale. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_tactics_scale

And that’s bloody useless because there’s really not a lot of “conflict” in many abusive relationships. As kittehs said above, using tools like the CTS means that you can finish up with men and women being equally “violent” when he’s punched her and caused a swollen black eye and she’s pushed him away when he tries to hit her again.

This summary gives an overview of the problem. http://www.nij.gov/topics/crime/intimate-partner-violence/pages/measuring.aspx

strivingally
6 years ago

The fucking CTS is one of the greatest gifts ever bestowed upon abusive men. It encourages muddying of the waters between instigation and self-defence, and also disregards patterns of behaviour. I hope it ends up in the same dusty alcove of ridiculously baseless assessment frameworks as phrenology.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
6 years ago

Some people really like being touched, and they figure other people like it, too.

Perhaps some day (if not already), you may find someone you enjoy sharing touch with.

I’m not talking about lovers, I’m talking about salespeople and coworkers and relatives.

I’m also not a teenager? I don’t think you meant to address me like one, but it kind of came off that way. I’m in my 40s, just FYI.

Bina
Bina
6 years ago

Bina, aside from the “crazy”, yes, that’s exactly what happened. I’m thinking MRA, not PUA, though.

The more I read this site, the more I’m convinced that all the seeming distinctions between MRA vs. PUA just boil down to “same shit, different toilet”. Both hold hateful, dysfunctional mental images of women, and both are playing abusive games on them. The only difference that I can see is that the one is openly trying to dick lots of women into letting him screw them, while the other is seething in (apparent) silence at home, taking it out on just one (or two, if there’s a mistress, and Bog help her!) at a time, while offering all kinds of plausibly deniable justifications for their abuses. One looks to Biotwoof™ for ideas on how to manipulate and abuse; the other inverts feminism, and claims HE is the oppressed party in a sexist, broken system (the better to scam female sympathies?). But both are male supremacists, just the same. And both are definitely hucksters.

Kind of like the “difference” between the American Nazi Party/American Renaissance types and the KKK. Or “race realists” vs. “white separatists”. Or…you get the idea. They can call themselves whatever they like, too, but it all boils down to “we really, irrationally hate the Jews, the Mexicans, and the knee-grows!” And the white wimminz. They don’t hold us in high esteem either, since they think those racial/ethnic out-groups all are out to rape and/or seduce us away from them, and that we are so physically, mentally and morally weak that we “need” their “protection” to keep us “pure” from all those marauders. Hence, all those guns.

The answer for finding a woman who will love you all your life is easy: find a teen girl between the age of 14-20. These are a woman’s binding years. The younger she is, the better. You may even be her first man. Women develop strong bonds to thhe first men they have sex with, specially if they are virgins. Let’s be realistic: if she is around 15, 16, you will be very special to her. She will listen to what you are telling to her. She will feel new experiences. Romancing a teen girl is the way to form a lifelong bond. That’s the reason why men marrying 15 year old women was the standard.

All the NOPE. Most women actually married (for the first time, anyway) in their twenties, even in medieval times. It was only aristocrats’ daughters who were married off so young, mainly because power-hungry elitist fathers were forging land and property alliances, and so had to deliver an intact heir-producing package to seal the deal. Hence, cloistered girls being married off to men whom Anatole France charitably characterized as “pirates”. But those marriages were of convenience, so they were “binding” only in a legal sense.

As for me, I hold no lasting attachment to the boy I loved (from a distance) between ages 13 and 18. Other than the fact that he occasionally, randomly shows up in my dreams at night, just hanging out and elaborately ignoring me. I’ve made a vow to confront him the next time he does that, though, and tell him to get the hell out of my head if he’s not going to say anything to me, because it’s really tiresome to have to dream about someone I no longer care for after all this time. So far, the vow seems to have worked; I haven’t dreamt of him once since I made it. Yay!

And the first guy I slept with? Well, I was in my twenties at the time, and nope, I’m not attached to him anymore, either (except perhaps as an example of a series of relationship mistakes I intend never to repeat). In fact, after he broke it off, I got back in the saddle before HE did. And made sure he knew it, too. He wasn’t happy about that.

I guess I’m doing this “lifelong bond” thing wrong, eh?

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

Ugh, I’m not a big touching fan, except with a very limited number of people, and even then, I’m weird about it. Like, my brother got birthday pats with the cat (she was surprisingly okay with having her paw used as a poking stick), cuz I wasn’t doing physical contact stuff, but playing pass-the-cat can be a full contact sport (not for the cat, except when played as a way to remove her claws from someone!). Pecunium though? I could probably fall asleep on him and we’re definitely not romantically involved, he’s just very comfortable. Basically clung to R to get down off Sleeping Giant yesterday after I broke my goddamned pinkie toe (I’ll be good by Tuesday, not the first toe I’ve broken) — normally I’d have been horribly embarrassed, but really, having broken my toe on the trail that small children were running on, after damned near rock climbing up he blue trail…fuck it, I have no pride left.

Point here, right, how touchy I am depends on the situation and person, not even my relationship to the person, just the person in general — I’ve relatives I’d prefer never to touch, and a grandfather I keep threatening with hot pink nail polish if he doesn’t leave his nails alone, friends I’ve never met in person and would prolly be all awkward around (hi guys!), and friends I use as a pillow. I suspect this one isn’t me being weird but part of the human condition.

The part where I’d rather touch animals, fuzzy or not, than people…well, I suspect most people would prefer to hug a person than a python. Me? Can’t wait to meet the snake my brother co-owns with his best-friend (my mother has banned pets that can survive outside water, lest they trap her in the bathroom [long story])

I’m rambling again, I’m gonna blame the fact that walking still hurts so I’m kinda stuck in bed. View’s great though, wish I could see into Puff’s tank, but I can see into the others, so it works.

saphy
saphy
6 years ago

Regarding the issue of touching, I am absolutely guilty of being an over-hugger. It mostly happens when I am drunk, but it happens, and for a while I never considered that other people might have a problem with being hugged by someone harmless. It is only recently that I have started worrying about how this could affect people negatively, so I am trying to stop doing it. It was mostly a reaction to feeling powerless in the face of someone’s drunk-sadness or drunk-confession and my drunkbrain thought ‘I must give comfort! Hug is comfort! I must give hug!’ But sometimes these were relative strangers, and I have no idea how this made them feel.

The thing is that I used to not be able to hug people. I was friends with someone for 6 whole months before I hugged her for the first time. I was sort of able to break through it, so now I am totally fine with someone going in for an introduction hug (unless they are creepy). But I still remember how I would freeze or flinch when people tried to hug me unexpectedly back in the old days.

tfoz
6 years ago

Great post! I reblogged it.

gilshalos
6 years ago

With freinds I am touchy. Male friends that is. But I normally ask for an hug if I initiate it, or don’t object when people I like hug me. Cos giving good hug is totally different from sex. It’s about comfort and safety and…why do I only feel ok being hugged by a man ? Good point.I did hug a female friend once. She had just confessed to being bi and obviously expected me to hate her. So I hugged her cos, how could I not ?

Shaun DarthBatman Day
6 years ago

“I think all you have to do to commit misandry is be a feeeeemallllle and not have sex with them. Everything else you do is just gravy.”

Ok, but I said “I hate all men” when I woke up, and I plan to continue, just in case.

GrumpyOldNurse
GrumpyOldNurse
6 years ago

Oh, wow! I read the dread game nonsense, and it turns out my ex wasn’t a swinehunt, like my Nana said, he was actually a proto-PUA! Funny thing, I’ve been with MrGrump for twenty years, now, and the only remnant of the ex in my life is my insistence on unlisted phone number!

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

John the Other wants to arm Iran with nuclear weapons.

Serious question. How is whatever the Canadian version of the Department of Homeland Security is called not on him for this? No, it most likely won’t come to fruition but people have been arrested for way less.

Canada has sanctions against Iran http://www.canadainternational.gc.ca/iran/sanctions/index.aspx?lang=eng and worries about the possibility of them obtaining nukes http://www.canadainternational.gc.ca/iran/nuclear-nucleaire/index.aspx?lang=eng

How is this not illegal?

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

That John the Other feels perfectly safe raising money to give Iran a nuclear weapon is such a glaring example of white and Christian* privilege isn’t it? If someone with brown or black skin, especially if that person was a Muslim did this he would be in prison so fast. The media would call him a terrorist.

* I don’t know what his religious views are but white people who have a name that doesn’t sound Jewish are given passing Christian privilege in many situations no matter what their beliefs actually are. This being one of them.

Fibinachi
6 years ago

@mildlymagnificent

Ah, yeah. Thanks. I was expressing myself a little poorly – I know why the model is the way it is, and I actually think that’s fine as a model. It works for what it does, and I agree with it.

It’s just that “it clearly seems to say that only men commit violence” is one of the easiest criticisms of it to make, if one pays attention for a picto-second… but instead you have dudes who look at it, and decide: “Abuse? Hey! That’s a good thing we should do more of!”. It’s not horrifying (to me) because it screams “we should abuse people”, it’s horrifying to me because I was not aware I lived in a world where people could be that stupid.

Cassie's Major Domo
Cassie's Major Domo
6 years ago

@WWTH

The Canadian agency that would be concerned is the Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS). Since John the Other, with his final statement, essentially asked for someone connected to Iranian Intelligence or a terrorist cell to contact him, I think the CSIS at least has JoT on a watch list of some kind. Perhaps the sheer stupidity of JoT’s idea is what has kept them from actually taking action: i.e. “Not a credible threat.” He hasn’t started the actual Kickstarter yet, but should he actually do that, then I think the CSIS will shut it down and come a’ knocking.

zoon echon logon
zoon echon logon
6 years ago

“Wait! It was satire!”
[Thrown by suited guys into black van.]

Cassie's Major Domo
Cassie's Major Domo
6 years ago

The thing is, I could completely envision Stephen Colbert reading out John The Other’s statements and getting huge laughs from it. It’s fantastic satire of the sheer stupidity of the warmongering mentality colliding with crowdsourcing mania.

Except that John The Other actually wants to do this, and therefore it isn’t satire. But I want to see that Colbert sketch version that makes it satire.

grumpyoldnurse
6 years ago

Wouldn’t JtO’s ramblings actually be a matter for CSec? Just thinking that because he’s talking about it on the internet, but I willing cede my meagre understanding of the Canadian intelligence community to people who actually know what they’re talking about. I don’t thinks it’s actually illegal to talk about this stuff in Canada, but I’m pretty sure talking about it will get your phone bugged, and your landlord (or neighbours) will probably get a visit from guys in dark suits who will ask them if you do anything weird.

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

RE: ryeash

I had a therapist actually tell me I should feel bad for my abusive stepfather because he was abused. That was the last she ever saw of me.

Yup. My mother was molested too. In my opinion, that she knew full well what she was sending us into only makes her behavior that less forgivable.

RE: lacerta viridis

“do they really go out and say this shit to people in real life,

Yes. Yes they do. Also, now seems a good time to recommend Something Terrible.

RE: Bina

I guess I’m doing this “lifelong bond” thing wrong, eh?

You and me both. Our grandfather seems to have been the first person to molest us, and I can promise you, Kid HAAAAATES him. We all refused to cry at his funeral, and she seems to appreciate it. Our rapist was the first to rape me personally, and I hated his guts from the start. Yeah, we were totally “bound” to those guys, all right. Totally.

RE: Argenti

Ugh, I’m not a big touching fan, except with a very limited number of people, and even then, I’m weird about it.

Same. Basically, I am okay with touching most of my system members, and that’s about it. Everyone else? Handshake or less, please. And OMFG do not fucking hug me. Last time someone “surprised” me with a hug and tried to pick me up, I screeched, thrashed, and kicked. (He put me down instantly.)

ryeash
6 years ago

@LBT

That comic choked me up a bit. My abuse at the hands of my stepfather was physical and mental. The sexual abuse came later, by different people. But I think that is what started my obsession with superhero/vigilante stories. And video games, where you can be a strong somebody-else and take down evil. At its worst, it’s all escapism. But it saw me through many a rough period. If I could go to a different world where I could be strong or where the abusers were served justice, I could make it through another day. And another. And another…

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

RE: ryeash

Yup. For us, the escapism was fantasy novels, but Something Terrible chokes me up too, because it so succinctly describes what it feels like to see yourself as a ticking time bomb.

ryeash
6 years ago

@LBT

I loved fantasy novels, but I had to hide them often. My stepdad was very “religious” and saw them as satanic. I once caught a beating for ordering a Palmistry book through Scholastic, once for a book called Dark Angel that was the second or third in some trilogy I was reading, and once for The Dark Half by Stephen King. My mom got me into King, and my uncle had loaned me the book. None of that apparently affected the fact that I was a “satan-worshipper”. People use religion for such despicable things. I was twelve when I decided it just wasn’t for me. I asked a youth leader how even an entire liftime–birth to death–of sin warranted an eternity of torture. I was told not to ask anymore questions. I found that a rather unsatisfactory answer and figured if no one could plug up the hole I’d poked in their rhetoric, I was out.

kittehserf - MOD
kittehserf - MOD
6 years ago

Am I the only one who reads “dread game” not in the sense of “the game to make her dread your leaving” but more like Dread Pirate Roberts?

thebewilderness
thebewilderness
6 years ago

No, you are not alone in this, kittehserf.

grumpyoldnurse
6 years ago

Well, in all fairness, Wesley did play some dread game on Buttercup…

kittehserf - MOD
kittehserf - MOD
6 years ago

thebewilderness – oh, good!

grumpyoldnurse – yeah, Wesley was a right little shit, really. I’d prefer Inigo any day, even if it did mean soaking his head every so often.

grumpyoldnurse
6 years ago

Mmmmm, Inigo…. what, sorry, what were you saying?

Actually, I might go for Fezzic. He was just so damned sweet!

dudeinthewoods
6 years ago

CSEC and CSIS don’t have enforcement powers as far as I know, it would be handed off to the RCMP or the local force. Not that I expect Kickstarter would actually let it go anywhere.

As for hugging etc, I have very severe PTSD so the only people who are allowed to touch me are my wife and immediate family. Personal space is very important to me and most people seem to be aware of that and leave me be.

Looking like a stereotypical biker probably helps.

beegees
beegees
6 years ago

RE: 50 Shades of Grey

The book is complete shit and I was too bored by it to do more than skim read it, twice..But I did read most of it, and from what I read, I think it’s a bit misrepresented.

First off, the misters are right; Ana absolutely enjoys herself in her interactions with Grey. She’s all shuddering currents of electricity when he touches her, swooning fantasies of kissing when he grabs her and saves her from falling into traffic, cliche descriptions of the pleasurable sensations of sex, multiple orgasms, and just about every trope you can find in an erotic (fan)fiction.* Is there conflict? Yes, and to be fair, fiction needs conflict to be interesting. This is doubly so for erotic fiction, which otherwise could end up sounding like an instruction manual for assembling furniture from IKEA. “Insert the penisTab A into the vagina**Tab B and screw down tightly. Turn over, and repeate steps 1-4 an additional 3 times. You are now finished assembling your product.”

But whether Ana was enjoying herself isn’t the issue.

Here’s the thing; yes, Grey was controlling, but through the magic of fiction, he wasn’t controlling in ways that Ana disliked, or at least found intolerable, until the very end. (She gets more sexually excited than annoyed by his controlling ways). By the end of the book, he finally pushes her too far, and she LEAVES HIM. So yeah, good example of how women “like” to be slaves, misters.

Her fantantasy is in much the same group as the fantasy where a man is overcome by his desire, but through only his instinct knows, and dutifully performs, exactly what the woman wants. Or much the same vein as how consensual rape play is not the same as being raped. It may have the illusion of male control, but in the end it’s not, because the man is (invisibly) being subject to the woman’s needs and desires the entire time.

I’m not saying that ALL of 50 Shades of Grey is workable in the real world. How could one avoid crossing someone else’s boundaries for control/etc. without discussing them first? However, in the context of magical fiction, the behaviors in the book are not abusive. How do I know? Because she enjoys them. They turn her on. Until the end, the actions never fully cross from pleasure to pain, and everything’s consensual. That’s not what abuse is; abuse is causing pain, not pleasure. It’s about the situation as a whole, it’s not completely about specific actions.

The argument that the book normalizes extreme behaviors and is unrealistic could be made about nearly any type of porn. Seriously, what is it about these misters and their confusion of porn with reality? I swear, 90% of the behaviors I hear the misters say that women frequently do (ie. hypergamy) are things that I only see happen in mainstream porn. This book isn’t the exception.

*Part of the reason why I was so underwhelmed by the book was because it read so much like a poorly written lemon from fanfiction.net, which I have already read plenty of. So I looked it up and the book started out as… an erotic Twilight fanfiction. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA I laughed for hours.

**Given that I’m talking about erotic fanfiction I should probably call the vagina “the mound of soft supple petals”, no? Although I have to give FSoG credit that it’s generally not quite that bad, most of them are.

ryeash
6 years ago

Ahhh, Inigo all the way! Especially the book Inigo. The sword wizard. So awesome! I had a t-shirt that had a picture of Inigo and a couple quotes. One was “You seem a decent fellow. I hate to kill you”. Then my best friend and I played shotglass checkers with pomegranate pucker, and it got a lovely red stain. She said she’d get it out, and that’s the last I saw of it 🙁

grumpyoldnurse
6 years ago

Thanks for the clarification, dudeinthewoods! (regarding CSIS and CSEC, I mean)

Headless Unicorn Guy
Headless Unicorn Guy
6 years ago

Not just women —
These Alpha Males are just as contemptuous and abusive towards Omega Males as they are towards women. I know because I grew up a High School Omega Male, and it wasn’t pleasant. (Including threats of gang rape behind the backstop. And I’m in regular contact with another Omega Male who had it worse — the abuse he got in high school is still an open wound, 20+ years after-the-fact. The guy is one of the hottest raw fiction-writing talents I’ve ever run across, but he’s been so shattered he requires constant encouragement to use that talent.)

These Alpha Males(TM) will stomp on the face of ANYONE who isn’t an Alpha Male in their speshul little clique. They have never left High School, they will never leave High School, and they will NEVER let any of the rest of us leave High School.

kittehserf - MOD
kittehserf - MOD
6 years ago

Y’all know that the beautiful Inigo features on the famed Complete Manboobz Dictionary of MRA-English and English-MRA, don’t you?

blahlistic (@blahlistic)

@ HUG: my condolences on having to go through that. I survived high school too, I was extremely obese.

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

RE: ryeash

I loved fantasy novels, but I had to hide them often.

Your story, of all things, reminded me of an Indian movie my roommates just watched last night called Oh My God! which had one of the best premises for a story I’d ever seen: an atheist sues God. (Or rather, the gods, since part of the suit requires him to decide whether the Islamic God or Hindu gods are responsible.) Krishna comes on a motorcycle to assist him in his lawsuit, and it’s kind of amazing.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

What does he sue God/the gods for?

(I would watch this just for Krishna on a bike.)

Phoenician in a time of Romans
Phoenician in a time of Romans
6 years ago

(I would watch this just for Krishna on a bike.)

Try this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vimanarama

Have fun.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

. A baby in his family accidentally opens a path to the centre of the Earth, unleashing ancient monsters hell bent on destroying the world.

I love this already.

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

RE: cassandrakitty

What does he sue God/the gods for?

Destroying his shop. The insurance company refuses to pay, calling it “an act of God.” Dude decides well then, he’s going to make the gurus pay for the property damage! It’s kind of amazing. (Though note, I was in and out the whole time, so missed it.)

Also, quoth my sis Miranda: “Krishna on the bike is well worth it. The actor is VERY VERY PRETTY.”

RE: Phoenician

I actually read that, but only remember hating it, and being disappointed in my own hate. I seem to recall LOATHING the protagonist dude.

Luzbelitx
6 years ago

Woha, apparently I skipped this post earlier… I’m just gonna say
comment image

And
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Shaun DarthBatman Day
6 years ago

@strivingally, you are destroying my grand dream of becoming a retrophrenologist.

kittehserf - MOD
kittehserf - MOD
6 years ago

I want that job too, Shaun!

Michelle C Young
6 years ago

@Kittehserf – Sorry, I’ve been offline for two days.

In answer to your questions Re: Louis in the Sims – No, I don’t have a sim for him, yet. I’m just not up to the task, myself. My sims never look real, so I just pretty much stick with the standard faces. I did, however, post a picture and put out a request for someone else to do it.

My Sim, Ebil Ladybrainz, did paint some lovely “Boss-themed” pictures, including the lovely one I used as a basis for the Sim request. They are hanging in her dorm room.

Unfortunately, the apocalypse just hit, and she had to run away, with only a couple of items, so she left them behind. But once she can paint again, she’ll have some more cool pictures decorating her house.

I have the story posted at my website. Yay! Part of my story is actually a shout-out to We Hunted the Mammoth.com, since she’s a blooming feminist, and all. She won the Lavender Menace SJW Seal of Approval!

Michelle C Young
6 years ago

@blahlistic – Oh, my goodness! I’m so sorry you had to deal with that. Thank goodness she realized that killing you would kill herself, as well.

Good for you for not causing unnecessary pain. But, man, a group effort? I hope you are well away from ALL of them, now.

Michelle C Young
6 years ago

@blahlistic – If battery includes gas lighting, then you know women are quite capable of doing it to men. As to studies, I don’t know of any, but then, I haven’t even bothered to look it up. I’m basing my “women are capable of gas lighting” statement purely on my own experiences, and observations of people I know.