Congratulations, A Voice for Men. You are having an impact upon the world.
Or at least upon one organization in India, a truly reprehensible group called Masculinist India, which has adopted the histrionic rhetorical style, and even some of the specific arguments, advanced by AVFM and other North American Men’s Rights groups for a series of graphically challenged “masculinist” memes posted on Facebook and on the group’s web page. Masculinist India has even adopted AVFM’s preferred nomenclature, describing its members as “Men’s Human Rights Activists.” They are of course the complete opposite of “human rights” activists, campaigning instead against basic rights for women.
The influence of AVFM and other Western Men’s Rightsers can been seen again and again in Masculinist India’s posts and memes, which have all the sophistication and subtlety of Chick Tracts.
The “feminists made me a misogynist” logic of the meme above, for example, echoes the argument made in “Hate Bounces,” an influential MRA screed by MRA/MGTOW elder “Zed,” and by countless other MRAs including former AVFM Number Two John Hembling.
Other memes borrow not only the arguments of Western MRAs but recycle the same tired stock photos, like the angry woman in this meme, a favorite amongst Western MRAs.
Masculinist India’s graphics-makers are as obsessed with this “argument” as is AVFM’s Paul Elam.
And they share AVFM’s fondness for threatening rhetoric — in this case complete with violent imagery.
And while AVFM’s Elam argues that men serving on juries should vote to acquit all men charged with rape, even if they’re obviously guilty, in order to protest an allegedly “misandrist” court system, the Masculinist India crew celebrates a court decision allowing married men to rape their wives with impunity. The following meme appears on their website under the taunting headline “Know Your Role, Girls.” [TRIGGER WARNING for rape apologism, offensive imagery.]
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I don’t even want to know why they chose bloody fingers for this graphic.
This meme, meanwhile, suggests that it’s an injustice that men are not allowed to forbid their wives from wearing blue jeans.
Human rights: You’re doing it wrong.
Unfortunately, Masculinist India is not some obscure little group with no influence in the world. Its Facebook page has nearly twenty thousand “likes” — several thousand more, that is, than that of AVFM itself.
Apparently in India as well as the United States there is a market for this brand of hatred.
NOTE: Thanks to Cloudiah for bringing these memes to my attention.
Seriously, like, I’m honestly kinda horrified by Just A Guy’s suggestion. Not just for the implication that marital rape is a necessity to protect high-libido guys (because high-libido women don’t exist? what?) but also because it reeks of a complete lack of sexual creativity.
Like, how depressing is that, treating sex as this zero-sum game where compromise means, “we’re equally miserable”? (Of course, that’s how my rapist worked; scumbag thought sexual compromise meant he’d only rape me HALF the times he wanted to.)
Hey, Just A Guy, what happens when the man is the one “holding out”? Desire goes both ways! If monogamy doesn’t suit you, don’t do it. If you discover that monogamy doesn’t suit you after you’ve been doing it for a while, talk to your partner and work on a solution that can work for all parties involved. And please don’t try to excuse rape with that “high sex drive” drivel. It doesn’t fly!
Also, oh god, dude, I’ve been horny, THAT DOESN’T MEAN YOU NEED TO STICK YOUR DICK IN SOMEONE WHETHER THEY LIKE IT OR NOT!
The more I think about this, the worse I feel.
):
D:
D8
Drats! Ninja’d again! (and by a rebuttal that was far more eloquent than my own, too)
Yep! Horny does not give anyone the right to use another person as an object for their own gratification, ever.
Bostonian, congratulations on your spectacular definition fail.
I must emphasise that I wanted to push the discussion on the marital sex issue in a certain direction. I do agree with everything that you’ve said in response, except of course the notions that I’m somehow okay with rape. But I realise that I might have not expressed myself with a great deal of precision. Fear that sex stops is clearly an explanation. Not excuse. Hope the distinction is clear and nobody harbours any ill feelings towards me.
BABBIES, ADORABLE BABBIES, THEY ARE GETTING SO BIG.
It was probably originally some guy’s random daydream, later cited as an symbol for modern women’s rampant semi-nudity.
A Sexy Disney’s Pocahontas plagiarized for “Sexy Native Canadian Princess”, because rule 34.
Well, you could try talking to your spouse. Wacky idea, I know, but you’d be surprised at how effective it is! And masturbation. There’s a very wide variety of all kinds of masturbatiry material free, on the Internet, and also a wide variety of toys and aids available also, to help in this.
In fact, I believe there are literally thousands of things someone can do instead of raping someone.
In fact, I truly, truly believe that raping someone should not even show up on a list of “Things to Do When I’m Feeling Horny but Spouse (or Anyone, Really) isn’t Willing to have Sex with Me Right Now.” Rape is just not the first or last or any option that anyone should ever go to. Ever. Period. End of sentence.
That last post was directed at Just A Guy.
I must learn to be clearer when posting on the Interwebs!
RE: Just A Guy
My reaction is in part to being a rape survivor myself, where the relationship was used as an excuse to use me as a human underage sextoy on a weekly basis for a year. I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt though.
Seriously, though, me and hubby sometimes have sexual conflict (under stress, he tends to get hornier, while I go completely flat) and we’ve been together seven years. We’ve found ways to work around it, ways that are mutually pleasurable and don’t leave anyone feeling bad. I have no trouble believing that some people are sexually incompatible, but still, if the incompatibility is THAT severe, I see it as an okay thing to break up. People change, people go in different directions, people come out! It’s sad, and it’s painful, but that’s part of being human.
Regarding Just a Guy’s comments…
What’s up with this idea that if a woman can say, “No,” to sex whenever she wants to, eventually she’ll just always say, “No”? It seems like these dudes are afraid that asking men not to rape is the same thing as asking them to never have sex again. Look, Just a Guy, I don’t know if you’re one of those men who’s convinced that it’s very easy for women to have sex and very hard for men to have sex, unless they have movie star good looks, but let me just say that I know plenty of conventionally unattractive men who have regular consensual sex. Hell, I’ve had consensual sex with conventionally unattractive men. Looks are not everything. Actually being charming and generating chemistry can do wonders.
Also, if a serious libido disparity actually does arise, you can, nay should, talk about it and come up with a solution that is mutually agreeable to you and your spouse. There’s no one-size-fits-all solution, which is why you need to talk. And yes, maybe an open relationship is a good solution, though that depends on each couple. Rape is not a solution. Ever.
@Just a Guy:
No. Stop. Bad. *spritzes with water*
You’ve just framed dealing with differing sex drives in the same context as marital rape. Why the fuck would you go and do that?
Who says marriage needs to be monogamous?
Open relationship, it’s a thing.
“My reaction is in part to being a rape survivor myself, where the relationship was used as an excuse to use me as a human underage sextoy on a weekly basis for a year. I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt though.”
I’m so sorry to hear that! Sounds like you had a really terrible and demeaning experience.
“Look, Just a Guy, I don’t know if you’re one of those men who’s convinced that it’s very easy for women to have sex and very hard for men to have sex”
Not worried about my looks and I dunno how this actually entered into the equation. But I do have concern about this: introverted and socially awkward guys, even if they’re not too terribly ugly, could have massive trouble meeting women. Whether women with similar odds stacked against them are any better off remains uncertain, considering that any positive assumption would amount to the grass always appearing greener on the other side.
@ikanreed
I think people in the Manosphere did call Saudi Arabia the purest form of matriarchy on this planet. Apparently because enforcing public gender separation is a crime against the men who’d like to approach women on the street.
Who says marriage needs to be about sex? Granted, this is more of an individual taste, but there is a pretty ancient and terrible notion that amount of sex == strength of relationship, so there definitely is a cultural thing behind it. There are other ways to be intimate or feel validated and loved.
Why does it “remain uncertain” if introverted and socially awkward women tell you that it does?
… soooo what? How’d we jump from marriage woes to dating woes? Am I missing context or something?
Shut up, Woody.
That might be my fault, Kirbywarp. I pointed out to Just a Guy that not being able to rape wouldn’t keep men from getting sex because it is entirely possible to get consensual sex from another person or, failing that, with yourself. I brought it up because he asking about what husbands should do if their wives wouldn’t have sex with them, which sounded suspiciously close to other trolls that have come around who’ve been totally against rape BUT also really worried about dudes who can’t get laid very often and what they were going to do and how bad not having sex feels.
RE: alaisvex
What’s up with this idea that if a woman can say, “No,” to sex whenever she wants to, eventually she’ll just always say, “No”?
If someone is always saying “no” to sex with you, I’m just saying, there might be more to it than hurt feelings.
RE: Just a Guy
introverted and socially awkward guys, even if they’re not too terribly ugly, could have massive trouble meeting women.
Oh hi, I’m one of those introverted, socially awkward guys! (Ask me why. Hint: it involved rape.) But I’m gay, so I guess that magically doesn’t apply to me. I even managed to attract a husband who is in my humble opinion the most gorgeous, wonderful man on the planet! Sooo worth the effort of overcoming all those rape triggers.
Still, dude. You chose to segue from marital rape to this pet cause really grossly. Come on, man, you’re better than this. My old answer remains the same: talk, find common ground, and at worst, break up. If you’re so socially awkward and introverted you can’t bear to talk about sex, you shouldn’t be having it at all, in my opinion. If I can do it (and note, part of the Raping Year was that any discussion of sex at all meant I would get raped) then anyone can.
Just A Guy:
Ok, I’m confused. How does any of this relate to marital rape? Or are “introverted and socially awkward guys who can’t get sex” what you wanted to talk about all along? Why the hell would you use marital rape as a secure into that?
I mean, this is not a relationship blog. This a feminist blog that tracks and mocks misogyny. “Introverted and sexually awkward guys who can’t get sex” isn’t actually a feminist issue. Try Captain Awkward and Dr. Nerdlove, they have tons of great advice.
And why are you “concerned” about the ability of introverted and socially awkward guys to meet women? Seriously, what the hell does that have to do with marital rape? I mean, it sucks to be lonely and social skills aren’t always that easy or come naturally to people and its good that there are people and places that teach social skills and ways to meet new people, but agin, this is not one of those places. You’re not trying to say that if all those introverted and socially awkward guys don’t get sex from women, then of course they’re going to rape someone, are you?
I just don’t understand what you’re trying to get at here.
Things hubby and I have done when one of us does not feel like sex:
* Cuddle
* Watch/read/create porn together
* Make out, and then let the interested party finish themself off, either alone or while being held, cuddled, or talked to
* Make a rain check for another time
* Spend quality time together, going out, watching a movie
People have sex for tons of reasons. Physical contact, to feel loved, to get some attention, to have an orgasm… the list goes on. The key is finding out what you want most, and then finding a way to satisfy that need in a way that’s amenable to all.