The We Hunted the Mammoth Pledge Drive continues! If you haven’t already, please consider sending some bucks my way. (And don’t worry that the PayPal page says Man Boobz.) Thanks!
If you hope to make it through the day without losing all hope in humanity, you may not wish to read the following thoughts on Ray and Janay Rice from our old friend from The Spearhead, W.F. Price.
I know people instinctively and reflexively sympathize with the victim of a brutal attack, but …
Yeah, I’m giving you all one more chance to back out of this right now, because we all know that nothing good is going to come after that “but.”
… there comes a time when one has to ask whether or not the victim bears some responsibility for putting herself in this situation. Does Janay really think that will be the last time Rice gives her a beatdown? And even if she does, what statement is she making in marrying a man willing to treat her like that?
The statement is clear: she thinks the violence is a reasonable tradeoff for whatever she gets in return for her relationship, whether it’s sexual gratification, status or money. …
But feminists would have us believe that domestic violence is a patriarchal imposition, despite the fact that married women in patriarchal families suffer the lowest rates of domestic violence of all partnered women in the United States.
Price cites a previous post of his as evidence for this claim, though to declare it wildly misleading would be an understatement. While domestic violence rates among married couples are lower than among cohabiting couples, this isn’t a clean comparison; as Joanna Pepin notes on The Society Pages, it ignores “that selection out of cohabitation and into marriage – and selection out of marriage through divorce – creates an apples-and-oranges comparison between these two groups.” It’s also worth pointing out that as marriage rates have fallen over the last several decades, domestic violence rates have fallen as well.
In fact, study after study after study after study find that domestic violence rates tend to be highest amongst those with traditional – that is, patriarchal – values.
Let’s let Price continue, as we haven’t even gotten to the worst stuff yet.
Maybe feminists think the patriarchy has secretly implanted little chips in women’s brains that lead them to seek out men who will beat them up.
Somehow, instead of choosing granola-crunching lesbians, these women make a beeline for musclebound athletes, beefy bikers and ghetto thugs.
How many different types of bigotry can he fit into one sentence? I count three.
But maybe it isn’t the patriarchy. Maybe there’s something about female sexuality that defies feminist ideals. Perhaps it’s kind of a chaotic, anarchic thing that doesn’t pay attention to pronouncements about what’s right and proper.
Maybe, just maybe, the only way to really cut down on intimate violence would be to restrict women’s sexual freedom.
Well, aside from the fact that this is, uh, an utterly appalling thing to say, particularly in response to an incident in which a man knocked out his then-fiancee in an elevator, it’s also completely wrong. Indeed, studies show the opposite – that the more control women have over their lives, the less domestic violence there is.
Oh, but Price stops just short of explicitly advocating that men should be put in charge of women’s sexuality.
Would I advocate for that? No. As adults, women should make their own decisions in that regard. However, to blame men in general for the results of women’s sexual decisions is absolutely unacceptable.
As terrible as Price’s post is, the comments from The Spearhead’s regulars are, as usual, even worse.
According to the fellow who calls himself TFH,
The biggest error that Western Civ ever made was assuming that women could be ‘adults’. …
The woman’s brain-gina interface is obsolete. She is programmed to get gina tingles from men who were suited to excel in the world of pre-historic times, while she is programmed to be revulsed by the man who would have fared poorly then (the introverted STEM guys of today).
One cannot fully understand why women write love letters to serial killers and continue to get back with violent boyfriends, without also realizing the hate that women have for tech nerds, and how there is an obsessive push to divert tech money to women (i.e. they hate that money is appearing in the hands of men their gina does not tingle for).
Again, the brain-gina interface of women is obsolete. That is the most complete explanation.
I should point out that TFH – also known as The Fifth Horseman – is considered one of the leading intellectual lights of the Men’s Rights movement, with his loopy 2010 manifesto The Misandry Bubble winning praise from everyone from A Voice for Men’s favorite therapist Dr. Helen to self-promoting British MRA Mike Buchanan to crusty old Counter-Feminist Fidelbogen. Oh, and WF PRice, too.
Back in The Spearhead’s comment section, meanwhile, Eric J Schlegel trots out some evo-psych just-so stories to buttress a similarly backwards conclusion:
Women get the ‘gina tingle from the alpha male because, from an evolutionary perspective, those are the genes that contribute to survival. Trouble is, those same sociopathic thugs are not at all any use as protector and provider, so she takes the results of her selective breeding, along with her black eye, and finds a beta schlub provider to help raise them. … [P]erhaps others here have similar stories where female aquaintances chose assholes in their hormoned youth, only to settle for a nice guy with 3-4 thug bastards in tow. Women such as the one you’ve talked about here are those who have not overcome their animal instincts, every bit as much as the men who put them in ICU. The authority that a man used to have over his daughters as well as his sons used to act as somewhat of a check on this social dynamic, but we all know what happened to that…
I think it’s safe to say that if you ever run across a dude who refers to “‘ginas” instead of “vaginas” you should run as far away as your legs will take you.
Someone called Stoltz concludes
This is what happens when a society tells women they are equal – no,no – superior – to men. Movies and TV shows that show a female character acting like a hellish b*tch, goings around kicking everyone’s rearends. … Feminist and a feminist-backed government who tell women they have no responsibilities, and all the rights, so they believe they can do whatever they please to whoever (of course, the ‘whoever’ are men).
Meanwhile, another commenter suggests that the only solution is “to repeal the civil rights laws that prevent people from keeping ‘those’ people out.” Yet another declares that “Ray Rice triggers my gaydar pretty hard” and suggests that Janay “looks like a tranny.”
Price himself shows up with some comments even worse than his post, arguing that abused women stick with their abusers
because it feels good. Having a dominant man is a pleasurable feeling for a lot of women. It’s like a shot of dope for a heroin addict, who knows that he’s taking a big risk each time he injects the drug into his arm, but can’t stop himself from doing so anyway.
Just a couple days ago there was a power outage where I live due to some construction/maintenance in the area. I had to go to a nearby hotspot to do some work online and so did a few neighbors. One of my neighbors was an ordinary, middle-aged woman. She left her phone on speaker for some reason, and she got a call from her man that I heard as clear as day. He called, and then when she didn’t pick up immediately I could hear him yelling at her in a threatening manner for not answering promptly. Then, the guy demanded she get power of attorney over her mother so he could drain the old lady’s bank account, and when she raised reasonable objections to it he was insistent and angry. I was just shaking my head, but this mild-mannered, very plain 40-something white lady looked positively radiant upon receiving this kind of violent attention from her thuggish, scumbag boyfriend.
This is what English teachers like to call an “unreliable narrator.”
Anon2
http://heartiste.wordpress.com/dating-market-value-test-for-women/
Krauser who posts pictures of the women he had and bragged about them and judges women on appearance.
http://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-40065.html
Oh yeah! These guys truly do treat women like human beings! /sarcasm
The thing is people like this you can’t reason with them so David writes and mocks Misogny and other terrible things. He also tries to talk about this as much as he can so we can avoid them and bring them to justice.
I have no idea on where you are getting these ‘facts’ can you give us citations?
Conservative Girl, I hear where you’re coming from. I struggled with the same kind of self-blame when I got sober, because I didn’t understand how I could be a “real” addict if I was eventually able to get clean. If addiction is a lack of control, and I was able to eventually gain control, how could I say I was an addict?
But here’s the thing I eventually got through my head: the fact that a person eventually gets free of something terrible does not mean they let the terrible thing happen in the first place. My MIL didn’t choose to get cancer. I didn’t choose to be addicted. And neither you nor I nor any other survivor chose to be abused. You need to stop blaming the victims – including yourself – for what other people chose/choose to do to them.
Thanks to those who shared personal stories.
And thanks Arithia and others for the anthropological/genetic perspective on this manosphere nonsense.
I put anon2’s comments back up because they’re so ridiculous and wrong.They don’t bother me, but if they bother you all I’m happy to take them down. I’ve put him on moderation in case he decides to get nastier, as trolls are wont to do.
There are all sorts of reasons peoople stay with abusive people or in bad relationships. I know one guy who stayed in a relationship with a manipulative and emotionally abusive woman partly because she threatened to kill herself if he left, and partly b/c he was clinically depressed and afraid of being alone, and basically felt that a bad relationship was better than no relationship. (He was ultimately able to extract himself.) People’s motivations are complicated.
@Kirbywarp……I wasn’t suggesting that women should be able to read minds. I was saying that as abused women we need to be asking OURSELVES why we would accept that from somebody.
I had to examine myself after the second abusive marriage. Why would I accept that? Why did I rationalize his abuse? Why did I call it everything EXCEPT abuse? And more importantly, why did I feel I wasn’t deserving of better? Every battered and abused woman needs to answer those questions.
And I’m not in anyway excusing any man for abusing women. I don’t believe women cause it or deserve it. But, if you’re willing to accept it from someone, the obvious question is “why?”
I’ve answered that question. Finally. And it won’t happen again.
Logray:
I’m sorry you had to go through that. My father was similar to your ex and because of his stalking, harassment, games, and the just plain terrifying stuff he did, it took over 6 years for
my parents divorce to become final. Thanks to the misogynistic judge who let him get away with everything.
Anon2:
The fact is, I have no idea what the personal and financial lives of those that are online consist of and neither do you. I will admit, though, I’m not a gullible person like you are and don’t believe everything I’m told. I do know one thing. If the so-called PUA’s pseudo-sexcapades were really true and worked, they wouldn’t have time to tell you boys stories, would they? And on the off chance a few of them did, the halls of the manosphere would be dark and deserted, because you’d all be so busy with so many women, sex and living it up that none of you would spend most of your free time being keyboard jockeys and trolling. So I’m afraid that I’m gonna have to go with you and your peers are just full of shit.
@Conversative Girl,
I get what you’re saying, but I still think that you have to keep in mind that some people stay because they don’t have the resources to leave or they’re scared that their partner will kill them if they leave or take some other drastic action to hurt their partner for leaving. David’s example of a man who stayed with an abusive woman because she threatened to kill herself is a good one. Sometimes, the thing that makes someone tolerate abuse is fear. Also, I think that it’s worth pointing out that a lot of the times, the abuse victim comes to believe that they deserve the abuse because the abuser makes them believe that that they do. It’s yet another component of abusive behavior.
Warning: Off-topic
Zoe Quinn is getting attacked by Gamegaters and a Breitbart journalist. Reason: Because apparently they have found a picture of thr site of Depression Quest where it says a portion of the money will go to iFred. So they contacted iFred and iFred said they aren’t connected to Zoe Quinn.
So they are attacking her because of this and because they can’t find the iFred mention in the site now, saying that she is hiding evidence etc etc.
I actually went into the trouble of checking Web archive and it seems that she has really changed her site… Back in August that is. She changed charities, went from iFred to National Suicide Prevention Hotline.
These guys and their half assed research.
Hello all. Long-time lurker here.
This discussion reminds me of a Pervocracy post from several years back listing many reasons why people stay in abusive relationships: Why Does She Stay With That Jerk?. It was a big help to me as I was extracting myself from my emotionally abusive relationship. (In my case, #s 3, 11, 12, 18, and 19.)
I don’t know what else to say, but wanted to pass along the link. Wishing all non-trolls the best.
Dawn incognito
Welcome! Here is your package!
http://artistryforfeminismandkittens.wordpress.com/the-official-man-boobz-complimentary-welcome-package/
And Thanks!
Going out with a skinny bicycle racing PhD in pharmacology tonight. Is he a musclebound athlete, beefy biker or ghetto thug?
marinerachel: Total mangina. I mean, spandex wearing cyclist? C’mon.
Great bulge tho!
Have fun!
…Bet your cyclist has some great glutes and pelvic muscles…mmm…erm…what was I saying? Oh, have fun…
(He rode me like the Tour De France…)
@Alais
I love how they paint abusers as big, beefy guys and also women. Women are evil, violent abusive creatures, but only the big, beefy guys are.
Also, mine was damn near twiggy and pure charismatic bullshit. He had a PoliSci degree, so he was really good at charismatic bullshit. People liked him, even though he genuinely hated everyone except himself. And supposedly me, but that one was quite obviously debatable.
Another reason people stay in abusive situations is that, as fucked up as their situation is, it’s what feels normal to them because they were raised in an abusive home.
Another reason I didn’t recognize what was happening to me as abuse. My mother was a mentally, verbally, emotionally abusive addict. My father supported her and appeased her as best he could, and kept his head down or tried to make himself invisible. I apparently learned his coping mechanisms. In my former relationship, I was so worried about being my mother that I cast myself in Dad’s role instead.
(Dad? Also raised in an abusive home. It’s a difficult chain to break.)
Thanks Kirbywarp!
Praise be to Bootsy.
*looks at the mess anon made on the rug*
Ew.
My GF’s ex-GF was quite abusive, physically, psychologically and financially.
Women can be abusive partners too, of course. I *think* (and this is just my guess, not a researched position) that abusive women are less likely to take the abuse physical. They keep the attacks psychological, which is harder to pin down and can be just as devastating.
Am I going to go along with the MRA line that WOMEN ARE EBIL? of course not. They accuse me of thinking MEN ARE EBIL, and I don’t.
Why do they cling to this silly-ass black and white thinking?
@ tealily-that’s one of the things that kept me with my ex for ten years. I was conditioned to believe that I deserved to be screamed at and that was normal.
This topic comes uncomfortable close to home but here goes. I was at work and the overwhelming response was “Well of course no one should be hit but why did she stay if not for the money?”
Victims of domestic violence stay for many reasons and I have yet to find someone who is willing to be beat up because they might, in the future, be able to get money. For everyone who thinks that she stayed for the payday why is it so hard to believe that she stayed because he threatened to use his money to destroy her? As the recent doxxing have proved if you have the money to find out information about a person you are in the position to destroy them.
TW violence
No one in a violent situation is able to leave until they are ready. I’ve been in a situation where I heard different reasons why it was my fault: From supposed friends-He’s so hot, why aren’t you happy with him? From family- You slept with him you deserve how he treats you, from the police-Are you on your period and maybe just exaggerating what happened. I reached a point where I didn’t care if I saw another sunrise I wanted it to end. I’m one of the lucky ones, I had a family member buck the trend and come to help me. I had real friends who never left my side no matter how many times I told them he wasn’t that bad & to go away. I had a support system I didn’t even know about that loved me & wanted me to live to see another sunrise.A long laundry list of injuries that damn near killed me I’m still here.
So for anyone who justifies what he did since she obviously signed up for it think about this. Abusers are really good at hiding their true nature until you are under their control. If someone told you “you will act this way or I will destroy your (life, reputation, financial security, etc)” and your response was that you would fight back you’re deluding yourself and incredibly lucky that you have never been in the situation to have to make that decision.
This confirms what I’ve been saying. We’ve heard about the rivalry for leadership in the MRA world, and how Price has been portraying himself as the more intelligent, calm and reasonable pup in that litter. But it doesn’t take long for that mask to slip, does it? And he doesn’t need to say as much if his posse says it for him – look at the comments he nurtures on his blog.
And from the re-read there are a bunch of commas missing so feel free to grab some from here ,,,,,,,,,,
To everyone else that has been in the same situation I’m sorry you went through that & I hope that you find a way to heal and have a fulfilling life. You are better then the situation you are in, you are worth it!
I’m going to leave a big barrel of hugs over here for anyone who would like one. Like the MRSs this barrel is bottomless but the deeper it goes the better the hugs get.
@Dawn Incognito
That played a role in why I stayed, as well. My mother’s mother is emotionally abusive, and her father was physically abusive. It was just seen by them as “good parenting”. My grandmother’s father was also abusive, though my great-grandmother was an amazingly kind lady. My mother thought the proper way to raise a family was to keep the children in check through fear and pain, so my stepfather whaling on us was nothing abnormal to her. She was emotionally abusive herself and still has some bad tendencies. He was raised by quickly horribly abusive stepfather. He told us stories of being whipped with electrical cords. Compared to what happened to him, what he did to us seemed like nothing until he pounded my face bloody in a rage fit. Then it got real enough for my mother to realize shit was not right.
Physical violence becomes easier to rationalize if you come from an environment steeped in it. Sometime after my beating from my stepfather, my grandmother complained about not being able to beat your children anymore. That was around the time I stopped associating with that whole drippingly toxic family. The sad part is that it may cost me my relationship with my siblings, but the happy part is that my mother is trying to stay part of my life without being negative. She still guilts me from time to time about not visiting them, but I have zero desire to even know those people anymore. To them, I was the whistle blower who ruined my family. They claim to still “love me”, but they like reminding me what an awful human being I am so ah…no fucking thank you.