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Program note: I will be on National Public Radio's All Things Considered today [UPDATE: Transcript up, audio soon]

Kids listening to the radio. Or perhaps an armoire.
Kids listening to the radio. Or perhaps an armoire.

So I was interviewed a while back by All Things Considered for a segment on men’s rights activism. The segment, part of their “Men in America” series, will be running today. All Things Considered starts at 4 PM — at least in my time zone (Central); you’ll have to do the time zone math to figure out when it starts for you.

You can listen online here. The segment will also be archived on the “Men in America” web page; it should go up sometime this evening.

Hopefully the segment will include some comments from me. But you never know. Should be interesting regardless.

EDIT: The transcript is up here; audio will be posted on the same page at 7 PM eastern. They included a couple of quotes from me.

I haven’t heard the segment yet, but reading the transcript i have to say the piece is pretty poor, giving MRAs in general and Warren Farrell in particular way too much credence. More on this later.

 

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SAU1234
SAU1234
6 years ago

I hope you’ll write an article about NPR’s surprising neutral coverage. I’m shocked at their treatment of the MRM and the credence they credit it with.

Ledasmom
Ledasmom
6 years ago

I didn’t see this post, so I heard the word “manosphere”, perked up, listened, went “eh”, heard “David Futrelle” and yelled “DAVID! DAVID! DAVID!” while whapping the dashboard of my car and accidentally turning the hazard lights on. I believe that counts as “losing my shit”.

kittehserf - MOD
kittehserf - MOD
6 years ago

Ledasmom – dashcam or it didn’t happen! XD

Kim
Kim
6 years ago

Since we’ve been talking a lot about misogyny in geek culture – the latest comic from The Oatmeal shows vividly how they treat female super heros in comics

http://theoatmeal.com/blog/spiderwoman (somewhat NSFW)

I know it’s not a new idea, but no one has done it quite so… bulgingly before.

Kim
Kim
6 years ago

And another one that’s kitty related
http://theoatmeal.com/comics/kitty_hug

ikanreed
ikanreed
6 years ago

So, it’s hard to academically quantify the awfulness of MRAs. Qualitatively, just look at the “TOP all time” category on /r/mensrights or whatever. You get an image fast.

But how do you take that one step further to say that objectively they’re more misogynist than anything else?

That seems like what it’ll take to end this “Let’s look at both sides” thing.

Misha
Misha
6 years ago

Wowzers. One of the first times I’ve heard a prominent MRA actually acknowledge that men’s perpetration of violence might constitute a gendered issue, and he still has to make an arse of it:

“…why are our sons much more likely to be the ones to shoot up schools?” he says. “We’re all in jeopardy if we don’t pay attention to the cries of pain and isolation and alienation that are happening among our sons.”

“When a voice is crying out — sometimes distorted, and sometimes painful — it’s important to understand that anger is often vulnerability’s mask. It’s so crucial for us to see the vulnerability of the men that are hurting.”

Always, always this attributing of the actions of da menz to their hurt feelz. So boys and young men are ‘more likely to shoot up schools?’. It’s because of their pain. So the MRM includes ‘some angry people’ who endorse violence and hatred against women, and act accordingly? It’s because of their pain. Farrell would have everyone buy into the myth that behaviour is caused by feelings, and that anger is caused by… feelings?

No sale. That myth has already been debunked many times. Behaviour comes from a learned attitude of what is and is not morally acceptable. You harass and abuse women because a part of you thinks it’s ok to harass and abuse women. End of. Anger comes from deeply ingrained attitudes, in the case of MRAs from when an entitled attitude is not being met by the rest of the damn world.

Sorry the NPR did such a disappointing job David :(. Farrell still talks complete and utter rubbish.

kittehserf - MOD
kittehserf - MOD
6 years ago

Kim, I made most inelegant snort-laugh noises when I read the kitty one! XD

That gross Spiderwoman thing, yeah … they were taking it to bits on Pharyngula, among other places. Go Marvel, picking a porn artist (not to mention one with a lousy understanding of anatomy) to do their cover work. Totally sends their alleged message of trying to appeal to a broader market than the fapboys, not. He even used the same pose for that cover as one of his porn pics.

The Spiderman parody made me laugh, though.

jared
jared
6 years ago

Perhaps NPR should have included reference to men who are feminist allies such as Michael Kimmel and Jackson Katz because feminism has helped many men redefine their gender roles. I agree that NPR should have emphasized more of how many in mra movement waste time in blaming women for their plight and it gives way to misogyny that is rampant on the internet especially on mgtow websites. I surmise that most people who listened to the NPR piece have never even heard of the terms mgtow or mra before. I just hope these do not get a distorted view about the online mra movement from the show. I am just critical of NPR that they did not include reference to men such as Jackson Katz who are advocates for men but feminist allies as well. The good thing is at least they included comments by David.

Arctic Ape
Arctic Ape
6 years ago

The Spiderwoman cover fiasco is definitely the fault of Marvel editors… but since someone went to ask an explanation from Manara himself, we now know he’s a douchebag who thinks it makes perfect sense:

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2014/08/31/speaking-of-abuses-of-evolution/

Also, it’s just hilariously revealing that Marvel hired Milo Fucking Manara for the job. Might have been an inside joke, if they assumed that nobody knows him except core comic fans…and a couple hundred million Europeans.

idledillettante
6 years ago

It seems like the MRM wants to have their cake and eat it too when it comes to parenting rights. They ‘advocate’ for the right to get equal or primary custody of children, except they also want the right for men to disavow any children they decide they don’t want to care for/ pay child support for.

They say this is totes like what women can do already. In the former case the evil women are stealing their buxx by caring for the kids (post-divorce, inevitably) and demanding expensive child support payments, in the latter the evil women are dropping off their newborns at Safe Havens or getting abortions.

Which is it, huh? Do they all want to be superdads, or not dads at all? The comments thread mentions both of these issues.

Seems like no matter whether a woman chooses to or not to have children, it’s going to bug MRMs because they can’t control it. And it seems like divorce in the eyes of the MRM should be tantamount to throwing a woman out on the street to be homeless, like it was in Jesus’s day. That’s why the MRM is obsessed with the gold-digger as a thing all women do/are.

idledillettante
6 years ago

P.S. I’m referring to this comments thread, not present company.

-Caroline.

http://www.npr.org/2014/09/02/343970601/men-s-rights-movement

Kakanian
Kakanian
6 years ago

@Kim
From a link on that page:

One included a variant cover by Manara that we (and many others) took issue with for its blatant sexualization of a character on a title meant to be reaching out to women.

I remember people posting about the Emma Frost series that was supposed to reach an audience of teenage girls.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_small/0/3133/102784-18014-107661-2-emma-frost.jpg

Evidentely these companies are stocked with people who’re experts at trolling their main male audience, but they have absolutely nobody who’d know the first thing about any other target group.

Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
6 years ago

I’ve had more than one exceedingly frustrating conversation with guys who insist that the church has become “feminized”. There’s a particular author who has written several books and a whole website about the idea. And while he doesn’t stoop to the violent and obscene rhetoric that most MRA’s do, his ideas are roughly the same, and just as offensive.

Would that, by any chance, be Mark Driscoll of the Mars Hill Church in Bellevue/Seattle?

The Mark Driscoll who admitted to sockpuppeting on his own church’s forums under the name ‘William Wallace II’?

The Mark Driscoll who was accused of plagiarism, lifting sections of his books from work done by colleague Ron Wheeler?

The Mark Driscoll who is currently being pressured to step down after years of creating a culture of fear at his church where even some of the church elders who had argued against him were kicked out and shunned?

He’s smart enough to not show just how nasty and violent he can get in public, but that doesn’t mean he can’t be nasty to people he thinks won’t spread it about…

Fibinachi
6 years ago

That Emma Frost cover is hilarious.

I mean, it’s beautifully drawn. I wish I could do that. But it’s just so… I… the questions. The QUESTIONS.

How does that outfit stay on? It’s several different disconnected pieces of material, so none of those hold each other on her body, they’re all just pieces you put on like those long-sleeved gloves. They’d flap at all times and they’d be a hell of an nuisance. Why is wearing a random triangle of cloth around her neck? Is it some kind of future scarf? Did she come up with that herself? Why specifically that pyramid shape? It’s clear that the breast cups aren’t connected to the pyramid neck glove or the long sleeved arm things, so are they just cups duct taped to her breasts? Do they connect at her back? If so, how do they stay on? That must be the most restrictive, tight bit of fitting in the world, how does she breathe if that’s the case? Is her shorts literally bolted to her bellybutton? It’s the only bit of her outfit that seems to have a connection with her body, so is it some kind of plug? How does she maintain such perfectly glossy lips? How exactly is her neck transposed to such a far degree on her right side of the body? Is her spine equipped with an extra vertaebrae? Maybe the pyramid thing is connected to her breast cups, but that just raises even more questions, like did she design herself? That’s two round circles, a pyramid and a connecting bit of thread that she sort of just snaps on her self in the morning, then? That’s going to fall of instantanteously when you do a backflip. Is she playing around with fire while clearly having a good amount of hair gel in her freely flowing luxurious hair? That seems needlessly dangerous, did she not read the safety guidelines on her hairspray? Her kneesocks are unconnected with the rest of her outfit, but has no clear elasticity bands, so how do they stay on? In fact, maybe her outfit is not an outfit, it’s just part of her skin. The one on her left hand has the same lines as her hand, and the one around her neck is the only clear addition, the rest is paper thin material just lying on top of her skin, IS EMMA FROST A CYBORG? IS SHE A ROBOT? If she isn’t, this outfit is clearly fashioned from duct tape, will it stop bullets? That seems unlikely, is she aware of this? Why is Emma Frost setting fire to things? Her name is Frost, she should be freezing that card, is this a imposter Frost? Is the Imposter Frost wearing this improbable outfit because this is the front cover of a porno DVD meant to discredit the Frost superhero legacy? There must be a lot of knock off porno DVD’s in super hero worlds, there’s enough in ours? What would you call a dvd that features a simulacra Superman banging someone anyway? Man of Steel? Hey that’s an actual movie tittle, weird.

ARGH MY BRAIN

Malitia
Malitia
6 years ago

I have the hypothesis that the most common superheroine power is a very very limited tactile telekinesis ( http://powerlisting.wikia.com/wiki/Tactile_Telekinesis ) which is used to keep on the most ridiculous outfits and provide the basic protection those don’t.

vaiyt
6 years ago

How does she maintain such perfectly glossy lips?

That’s airbrushing. Just look at the blurry shine on her skin, somebody’s been using Playboy pinups as a coloring reference.

blockquote>IS EMMA FROST A CYBORG?
Maybe she is. It’s superhero comics, the possibility is always there.

Her name is Frost, she should be freezing that card

Look, I know superhero comics are known for their anvilicious naming patterns, but Emma Frost doesn’t and hasn’t ever had ice-related powers. She’s a telepath.

Anarchonist
Anarchonist
6 years ago

Emma Frost’s ridiculous outfit is put together to form an “X” (as in X-Men) from the bared parts of her torso. No, really. The “clothes” are there to provide the outline. It’s a huge “look over here” pointing at her boobs.

I’m growing really tired of the “well, she uses her sexuality to get men to lower their guard” argument. On top of being based on misogynistic tropes about women’s sexuality, it ignores the fact that one can easily act, talk and dress seductively without using a ridiculous amount of double-sided tape to put the outfit on in the morning. Comics are a visul medium, but come the fuck on.

And one more thing: Emma Frost is a telepath, for crying out loud. Why dress like the fantasy of a pre-teen boy when you’re easily able to take control of people’s fantasies and make them see what they want to see with your frickin’ mind?

Ugggh. I need some sleep.

Nova
Nova
6 years ago

Wow, Mars Hill is in the spotlight again. I used to go there when I had cancer, as it was one of the few churches I could get to. It’s not a totally terrible church. In fact, the congregants and elders are incredibly nice people, who were very good to me when I was going through treatment.

I attended church there for about 6 months, but never saw Driscoll preach in person and was never able to meet him. The associate pastors handled the rest of the service and his sermons were videotaped and piped in.

He is huge on church discipline and the rules are very rigid. Too rigid for me, as I believe that the choices I make in my personal life are nobody else’s business. There’s also a very rigid Christian manly man atmosphere, which kind of creeps me out. In order to join, you have to sign stuff about submitting to church discipline and giving the church way too much control over your life. I didn’t feel comfortable, so I returned to my Orthodox church.

It wasn’t a bad place to be, as Driscoll has very little presence in most of the churches but… I can see where a lot of the complaints are coming from.

Kootiepatra
Kootiepatra
6 years ago

@Jenora Feuer – He’s one of the loudest voices on it, but not the only one (and actually not the “particular author” I was referring to). But yeah, he illustrates the toxicity of that stuff pretty handily.

Ledasmom
Ledasmom
6 years ago

kittehserf: One reason among many that Ledasmom does not have a dashcam. Some of the others involve the helpful words and gestures that Ledasmom has been known to direct at drivers who do not appear to be entirely aware of the rules of the road, for the purpose of improving them.

katz
6 years ago

Driscoll’s the worst because he’s the loudest, angriest, meanest, and – let’s face it – stupidest. But he’s part of a group that all have the same toxic views. Which one were you talking about, Kootiepatra? John Piper?

Kootiepatra
Kootiepatra
6 years ago

katz: I was thinking of David Murrow, actually. He’s probably the most brazen I’ve seen regarding the idea that women are hurting the church by being female all over it.

katz
6 years ago

Not familiar with David Murrow, actually. He must come from a different strain of terrible Christians.

vaiyt
6 years ago

it ignores the fact that one can easily act, talk and dress seductively without using a ridiculous amount of double-sided tape to put the outfit on in the morning.

Escalation. When the “normal” characters are already all scantily clad and posing like porn actresses all over the place, how do you get across that this one is actually trying? That’s how we get Emma Frost and Starfire.

itsabeast
itsabeast
6 years ago

Is it just that 5 minute thing, or is that just part of a larger piece?

Kim
Kim
6 years ago

So I googled “gender swapped superhero comics” and found this, which I think is pretty awesome

http://wac.450f.edgecastcdn.net/80450F/comicsalliance.com/files/2010/03/genderswap06.jpg

Of the stuff on the same page (http://comicsalliance.com/gender-swapped-superheroes/) It was the only one that wasn’t gross.

Aunt Edna
Aunt Edna
6 years ago

In contrast with this NPR almost puff piece on MRA, SPLC’s “Intelligence Report” (fall issue that’s just come out) presents a more accurate picture of MRA in the article “War on Women:”

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2014/fall/War-on-Women

The print issue of IR also has an insert, not available online from what I see, titled “Misogynistic Murders: A Sampling,” discussing the cases of Marc Lepine, Darren Roy Mack, George Sodini, Anders Breivik, and Scott Evans Dekraai.

Aunt Edna
Aunt Edna
6 years ago

@littlefish:

“In response to (EqualityEd)”

EqualityEd also goes by the handle edtastic (and Divided Line, if I’m correct). His misogynistic, inverted-feminism (“men have been oppressed by women since forever!”) comments on Huffington Post way back when were my first introduction to MRA and their ilk. I remember my reaction of incredulity, thinking that ed was either pulling our leg or perhaps had just landed on Earth from another planet. Surely no person with their eyes open can think this way…?

Ah, themz good ol’ innocent times…

Sun
Sun
5 years ago

This made my day. *cue the violin* David Futile. XD