Though Men’s Rights activists devote an enormous amount of their time denouncing feminism – or at least the imaginary version of feminism that exists only in their own heads – they’re happy to appropriate feminist concepts when it suits them. One that many MRAs seem especially eager to claim for themselves is the idea of the “safe space.”
Of course, their version of the “safe space” bears only a slight resemblance to the feminist original. Feminists seek to create spaces for discussion in which say, rape survivors can discuss their experiences without being triggered by insensitive arguers and trolls and mansplainers in general.
When MRAs talk about “safe spaces,” by contrast, their goal is often to exclude women not just from discussion spaces but from full participation in society, essentially declaring giant arenas of work and play, from STEM fields to video games, to be places where feminists, and women in general, should fear to tread.
And so it’s hardly surprising that more than a few MRAs are arguing that the Zoe Quinn “scandal” proves that women and gaming don’t mix – or, at least, that they shouldn’t.
Consider the little manifesto recently “pinned” as the top post on the Men’s Rights subreddit, in which a fellow calling himself mradiscus lamented what he called “a pattern of female feminists migrating to formerly male spaces, demanding to be accommodated and eventually causing conflict and alienation.”
The “male spaces” he has in mind – the “hacking scene,” atheism, and the video game industry – won’t come as a shock to anyone familiar with the current state of nerdboy rage, but might trouble anyone who thinks that women are, you know, equal to men and have the same rights to choose their own careers and have their own interests and beliefs.
Not only that, but there is just a teensy bit of irony in that the way that MRAs and others are trying to drive off the feminist, er, invaders is by harassing them. That is, MRAs are appropriating the concept of “safe spaces” — designed to protect those in them from harassment and abuse — and using it as an excuse for … harassment and abuse.
But let’s step back a bit, because we still don’t have an answer as to why any of these “spaces” should be defined as male in the first place. How is atheism – the lack of a belief in god or gods – only a dude thing? When did guys get the right to call dibs on the gaming business?
Well, as mradiscus sees it, these “spaces” have traditionally been essentially nerdboy preserves, and should be protected from the pernicious influence of “female feminists” who, presumably, have no real interest in hacking or gaming or skepticism and whose real goal is just to make life hard for already beleaguered nerd dudes:
A scene predominantly populated by rather introverted young males becomes popular and attracts, among others, young women with a feminist mindset. Some of these women then go on and demand to be accommodated. Their demands are mostly met, and so we see the emergence of “gender awareness teams” at hacking conferences, no-means-no campaigns at anime conventions and a whole lot of conference panel slots devoted to “feminist this” and “gender that”.
Mradiscus then offers what I can only call a “revisionist” history of the harassment of feminist women from Rebecca Watson to Zoe Quinn:
What we also see is a whole lot of scandals. What seems to spark them most of the time is a overreaction to a minor offense, blown way out of proportion by a semi-popular feminist and her fan base who then proceed to launch an attack on the whole “misogynistic” scene. The young men feel cornered and unfairly attacked and retaliate with inappropriate and infelicitous measures which only leads to the feminists seeing their prejudices confirmed. Rape threat allegations are launched, there’s doxxing and name-calling all-around and new-found fame for a brave and courageous young feminist who may or may not proceed to make a career out of her struggle.
I should point out that none of the women who have allegedly “made … career[s] out of [their] struggles” actually asked to be harassed and demonized. If the harassers are angry that their harassment allowed Anita Sarkeesian to raise a lot more money than she asked for, they really have only themselves to blame.
Mradiscus ends with an ominous prediction-slash-threat that young men aren’t going to remain “patient” for much longer – and that things could get much worse for feminists venturing into these “male spaces.”
I wouldn’t be surprised, however, if the patience of these young nerdy men turns out to be a shallow well that’s drawing to a close. I sense quite a bit of alienation in the hacking and gaming sub-cultures when it comes to feminist topics. What do you think?
I think that you have a very strange notion of “patience.”
Naturally, MRAs being MRAs, mradiscus’ little manifesto – dripping with unexamined misogynistic assumptions and a quiet, curiously passive-aggressive rage – won praise and more than one hundred upvotes from the subreddit regulars.
The most extraordinary response to mradiscus’ rant was also the top-ranked comment, a long screed from a fellow calling himself a0i that argued, with complete seriousness (and occasional very confused references to the theories of Italian Marxist theorist Antonio Gramsci), that
The logic of how feminists target predominantly male spaces is very similar to the pattern of locust swarms.
Yep. Feminists are LOCUSTS.
Wherever there are men, there are targets for false accusations, male scapegoats, and fake victims. False accusations can’t happen without men, and neither can feminism. When there are too many women somewhere, you can’t claim that the environment is dominated by men, and feminists have nothing left to justify their presence. Feminists can’t thrive because they lack a scapegoat. They seek out a place where men are, and fabricate outrage at finding too many men in once place, at one time.
They have to find fresh environments with concentrations of male majorities, for “structures of misogyny” to pretend-struggle against. Thus, nerd culture being targeted, video games being targeted, Anita Sarkeesian making up being attacked, etc.
Yep, apparently all those hundreds of thousands of comments you might have seen attacking Sarkeesian all over the internet are nothing but a mirage. That Flash game in which you could cover her face in bruises? You must have dreamed it.
It’s telling that a major feminist concern is for “women’s exclusive space”, while another feminist concern is for “women’s inclusion in male-dominated spaces”. They fight to get in, just to kick the men out. …
Feminists demand unlimited access for women, as proof of men’s commitment to equality, but demand limited access for men, to prove men’s concern for safety.
Wat? I’m pretty sure no feminists are talking about excluding men from video gaming.
This works, despite the irony that — if you believed in their equality, you wouldn’t make special accommodations for their safety.
Uh, no, because if one group faces systematic oppression because of prejudice, the only way to ensure an egalitarian society is by making “special accommodations for their safety.” That’s why we have hate crime laws.
In the case of gaming, and atheism and tech in general, the only “special accommodations” feminists have asked for have been, you know, protection from sexual harassment and assault. Protections that also apply to men.
If there is one principle to understand about the tactics used to engineer women’s privilege over men in society, it is this:
- “what you intend to do to an opponent, you must accuse them of doing to you” …
Frame your victim as your victimizer, put them in a position to want to prove themselves innocent. Frame your attacks as self-defense, frame your transgressions as righteous. Frame the enemy as using propaganda, make this part of your propaganda. Frame the enemy as a threat, before you launch your attack. Pretend to be a victim, while attacking the accused.
Apparently MRAs are utterly oblivious to irony.
( I should point out that last sentence is paraphrasing Insanitybytes22 earlier appearence here )
So, Inanity is suggesting that nerd spaces should all be sex segregated because…why? I grew up around hard core nerds because that’s what my best friend and neighbor’s parents are. Their gaming parties had both genders. The ren fest crowd was both genders. We girls played video games. Women have always been in nerd spaces. The c9ntention that they are male is a myth and it’s a fairly new one. Why do women suddenly have to segregate themselves because some of the men are sexist assholes. What the fuck?
Hey, is misogynybytes married? If not maybe we should set them up.
@kirbywarp, That splitting the country in half thing was Antz.
” If feminists didn’t want to take over the male nerd world, they’d be off starting a nerd world of their very own.”
Why should I have to reinvent the wheel any time I want to do something? Is it so hard for you to imagine that most of us are playing games because we say… enjoy playing games… rather than some secret, dark motive to be assholes to the poor beleaguered nerdy men? Should I reinvent everything I dare lay my dirty mitts on, lest some guy feel put upon by me liking something he likes?
And it isn’t as if women haven’t contributed to gaming… it isn’t as if we haven’t supported the community. Men are not hurt if I play WoW or *gasp* enjoy it. Men are not hurt if I say that it would be nice for a sizable demographic of the gaming world to be acknowledged and maybe even thrown a bone or two every now and then. Video gaming was NEVER just a male only thing… nor was being nerdy.
(High) Heels were invented for men… go invent your own shoes. Stockings and hose were originally worn by men, go invent your own garments! If women hadn’t wanted to steal the clothing industry from men, they would have made their own separate clothing industry.
@insanitybytes22:
“You seem to be defining “society” as if it were an exclusively male thing.”
Nope. What I am doing is pointing out that *you* are defining current nerd culture as “an exclusively male thing” and portraying women as somehow infiltrating it when, in fact, women were among the architects of nerd culture and have always been part of it. Not at all the same thing. I was also pointing out that the geek subculture is a part of society at large, rather than some sort of Manosphere Bubble–and, therefore, not a venue in which women should simply expect to be treated as lesser beings.
“Women gamers and nerds are more than free to go start their own nerd society. The fact that we so seldom do that, but instead seek out male dominated spaces, is evidence of women’s tendency to flock towards men. Personally, I don’t see anything wrong with that, but it seems somewhat deceptive to pretend that’s not what’s happening.”
Sorry–again, nope. We are not “[seeking] out male dominated spaces.” We are participating in a culture because we enjoy significant elements of it that do not have anything to do with how many dudes like it. What you’re advocating for here is that we engage in a form of segregation along gender lines and just concede mainstream geek culture to the guys, setting up some kind of “Separate But Equal” geek encampment in the slightly more run-down convention center across town. Many of us are unwilling to do that, because–here’s the thing–geek culture Does. Not. Belong. To. Men. It belongs to all of us.
No deception here. If you, personally, or other women, personally, “[tend] to flock towards men” for the sake simply of flocking manwards, well, okay. But I don’t think most of us think “Oh, hey, where are there likely to be loads of dudes so I can go hang out there and be all girly and winky and get dudepoints?” If some women do that, that’s okay, but do not presume that you understand the motivations of all women who happen to end up in spaces that have a higher ratio of male than female participants on the basis of that kind of behavior. I don’t go down to the pool hall and throw darts on the weekends because I don’t enjoy throwing darts. I do participate in geek culture because I enjoy many geeky things. It’s really pretty damn simple.
Java was invented by a dude: if women want to be programmers, they should invent their own programming language.
Windows, Mac, and Linux, and the internet were all started by dudes. If women want to be on the internet and use computers, they should invent their own operating system and network.
Men who never made a language or created an OS like myself? Eh, we’re fine to take advantage of existing tools.
Huh, this is getting interestingly close to a “we hunted the mammoth” type argument. Neat!
@kirbywarp: Actually… Programming was invented by woman. And woman made up the majority of the first programmers. If MEN want to be programmers, they need to invent their own language paradigms, not steal from the ones invented by women. XD
“Why should I have to reinvent the wheel any time I want to do something?”
Why, when you can just feel entitled to come into somebody else’s space and demand they conform to your needs, you mean?
“If women hadn’t wanted to steal the clothing industry from men, they would have made their own separate clothing industry.”
The entire fashion industry is dominated nearly exclusively by men. Unless you’re suggesting that half starved models and clothes designed for little boys in drag came from the realm of women?
Not exactly a shining ray of positivity, this one, is she?
@insanitybytes22: Men felt entitled to the female space of programming, and took it from them.
I know men don’t do passive aggressive snarky irony humor at all, because we’re big brutish hulking men who don’t do subtletly, so I can’t possibly do the next thing I’m going to do here:
“Oooooh? Coming into someone’s space and demanding they conform to your needs incessantly and if they don’t do so they are bad wrong bad people who are no good meanies is some sort of entitled thing to do, Insanitybytes 22? I wouldn’t knooooooooooowww if that was the kind of thing someone diiiiiiiiiiid”
@cassandrakitty – What bothered me the most about the ending of Pacific Rim was that, after everything you mentioned, they went and made Mako…ineffective. All through the movie, she’s been established as highly-trained and (accident in The Drift aside) hyper-competent. We don’t know her actual rank, but she’s Stacker’s right hand, and you know she knows how to handle anything that goes on in that base.
So White Male Hero is down and appears to be dead. Here’s a chance to break a few cliches and make her stand out. Does she peel off his breastplate and start CPR?
…nope. She begs him “Don’t leave me” until he comes back on his own (’cause nothing she was doing was any help, that’s for sure) as has been done in a million movies before. And this when their romantic relationship is embryonic at best.
What an insulting waste.
IB: why don’t you take your own advice (and having typed that I just got deja vu all over again):
I started learning to program in 1984. I have liked D&D type games since I became aware of them in 1982. I first played on a videogame console in 1976 (Pong!). I’m currently studying in a second STEM field. I have gamer and geek and nerd credentials.
This IS my space, there’s misogynist dudebros cluttering the place up like those drunk people who turn up to parties advertised on FB and then make the party all about them and their bad behaviour. They came into MY space and proceeded to tell people like me that I wasn’t supposed to be there any more. THEY can fuck off.
@insanitybytes22, you’re having a very difficult time with the concept that geek culture is not an exclusively, inherently, rightfully, originally male space, aren’t you? I mean, despite the fact that this thread is full of women who are geeks and have been geeks all of their lives, you’re just absolutely hellbent on deciding that we have no place in geek culture, unless we either sit down in the back and let the boys make the rules or set up our own separate enclave, where we don’t impinge on a single geekboy’s need to continually treat women as props or ego fluffers.
If you are personally satisfied with being told to look pretty and shut up, well, there are plenty of dudes who will be plenty happy to create such an environment for you. If you want to create a Girl Geek enclave that has nothing whatsoever to do with men, well, okay then. Carry on. But don’t tell the rest of us where we do and do not belong. It’s no more your right to tell us what our place is than it is the right of misogynistic geek dudes.
“Men felt entitled to the female space of programming, and took it from them.”
So take it back. Write more code, programs, games. The fact that women so seldom go out create their own spaces independent of men, makes it pretty obvious that seeking the presence of men has a great deal to do with it.
How many people have now told Inanity that women have always been in nerd cultures? Why is it not sinking in?
IB, please provide evidence that nerd culture belongs exclusively to men or GTFO. Your entire argument hinges on a wrong assumption.
This is her attempting irony, right?
@insanitybytes22–Okay, I see what’s going on here. You’re just going to repeat yourself, regardless of what is actually said to you. In other words, you’re just here for the trolling. All righty, then. Troll away. Troll on into the vacuum, if need be.
In the words of an icon of the geek culture which I apparently have no right to participate in on my own merits and in my own way, but to which I constantly flock because of The Menz:
“Bored now.”
Fucking hell…
Gaming should be a safe space for men? Fuck off. An entire sector of entertainment? Male safe space? Ridiculous. But typical of a privileged mindset.
“They’ve got a closet! Why don’t we have an entire city?”*
No, that’s not how it works. If you want a misogynist safe space (because that’s what you’re really looking for) then that’s fine. Set up a meetup group, a private LAN party, or a forum, or whatever the hell reasonable thing you like. Set yourself some entry rules, fine. But you don’t get to claim gaming as yours. Especially since it isn’t, and never has been.
And atheism? Seriously? So we’re giving up on the idea of atheism as a rationalist position? So many of the problems of religion come from segregation, and now we’re supposed to implement segregation in atheist circles? No. Fuck off. We are supposed to be skeptics, rationalists, free thinkers. We are not your private army of woman-hating losers.
MRAs are among the most egregiously irrational, blinkered, biased groups of fools I’ve ever encountered. And I spent my formative years arguing with creationists on youtube. Creationists who parroted Kent fucking Hovind. Think about that.
If atheism or skepticism need to be safe spaces, they need to be safe spaces from irrationality. That means you, MRAs. MRAs, anti-vaxers, 9/11 truthers, creationists… we don’t need any of you making a mockery of enlightenment ideals. You are not rationalists. Stop pretending that your ability to figure out that religions are dodgy makes you a skeptic or that it makes you any smarter than those who still believe in their gods.
Policy of Madness
My token MRA friend made a comment about this on facebook recently. He was complaining, yet again, that he’s accused of being in receipt of extra respect to that which is expected by basic humans, but that he doesn’t feel respected! He also had a little go at the “FEMINISTS ARE NAAAAAAZZIIIIIIS!” thing without outright stating it… fun! Two years since he introduced me to the MRM, expecting me to be swayed by their bullshit, and he’s still failed to do the most basic research on what feminism is or what feminists say. And to think, I once respected him as a skeptic. It’s not even like there’s much left to engage with him about, because he’s all about ever-so-subtle digs are the monster in his closet that he’s mistaken for feminism.
Me? Yes, I have privilege. It sucks, and I wish I lived in a world where everyone was actually equal, but I don’t, and whining about how much it sucks that I was bullied as a kid, or that particular kinds of people like to scream incoherent rants at me for having long hair at them won’t change the fact that I still have a vast suite of benefits that are blocked from others. Yes, they’re basic rights, mostly, but they’re basic rights that other people do not have, or only have partial access to. Pretending not to notice that fact is inexcusable.
insanitybytes22
o.O
You know that male humans and female humans are both humans, right? We’re the same species. Women aren’t flocking toward men… they’re just being the same species at each other. That’s not some weird thing, it’s called being the same species. Why would you expect women to run off and set up their own society away from men entirely? That’s nonsense.
*The only time I see an expectation for mere equality in these things is when they already have the whole city.
“Black history month? What about white history month?!” Oh, you mean every single other month?
Hey insanitybytes, do you have any hobbies? Legit question, despite being asked in order to make a point. I know you’re a blogger, anything else?
I don’t think anyone else pointed out the complete lack of comprehension/utter lack of intellectual integrity (aka, The Idiot/Liar Conundrum–I don’t know which she is, and fortunately, I don’t have to care to regard her as utterly dismissable) of this line, so I’ll snag it.
You ‘pointed out’ that you believe that men are oblivious to irony, and that it’s a woman thing, because women are innately more subtle or some bullshit like that. We’re claiming, with evidence in the form of quotes, that MRAs, including those of the FeMRA persuasion such are yourself, are lacking in irony-comprehension skills.
IB – even IF that was a justifiable position to take, when women do that, they are harassed anyway. Zoe Quinn is facing horrendous harassment for creating her own game. Where should she have gone to create it? Hidden away from men everywhere, somehow?
[CN: mental illness and mention of rape]
These same type of dudes seem to think their big checkmate on feminism is that it isn’t sufficiently concerned with male victims of rape and depression, and men who commit suicide.
So which is it? Women don’t care enough about men, or women are obsessed with men and taking their toys away?
“IB, please provide evidence that nerd culture belongs exclusively to men or GTFO. Your entire argument hinges on a wrong assumption.”
Why do you even assume that something like “nerd culture” can be owned, as if it were a piece of property or something? This particular mra nerd was complaining about the actions of some feminists and how people come in and force men to start complying with their agenda, hence the gender awareness workshops.
Forcing men to surrender what you perceive as territory, as property you designate “nerd culture,” is clearly the goal or else you wouldn’t be involved in this debate at all.
If women demanded their own women’s-only enclaves for anything we’d be pilloried for that too.