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Men's Rights Activists: Video gaming should be a "safe space" for male nerds.

No girls allowed!
Safe space! No girls allowed!

Though Men’s Rights activists devote an enormous amount of their time denouncing feminism – or at least the imaginary version of feminism that exists only in their own heads – they’re happy to appropriate feminist concepts when it suits them. One that many MRAs seem especially eager to claim for themselves is the idea of the “safe space.”

Of course, their version of the “safe space” bears only a slight resemblance to the feminist original. Feminists seek to create spaces for discussion in which say, rape survivors can discuss their experiences without being triggered by insensitive arguers and trolls and mansplainers in general.

When MRAs talk about “safe spaces,” by contrast, their goal is often to exclude women not just from discussion spaces but from full participation in society, essentially declaring giant arenas of work and play, from STEM fields to video games, to be places where feminists, and women in general, should fear to tread.

And so it’s hardly surprising that more than a few MRAs are arguing that the Zoe Quinn “scandal” proves that women and gaming don’t mix – or, at least, that they shouldn’t.

Consider the little manifesto recently “pinned” as the top post on the Men’s Rights subreddit, in which a fellow calling himself mradiscus lamented what he called “a pattern of female feminists migrating to formerly male spaces, demanding to be accommodated and eventually causing conflict and alienation.”

The “male spaces” he has in mind – the “hacking scene,” atheism, and the video game industry – won’t come as a shock to anyone familiar with the current state of nerdboy rage, but might trouble anyone who thinks that women are, you know, equal to men and have the same rights to choose their own careers and have their own interests and beliefs.

Not only that, but there is just a teensy bit of irony in that the way that MRAs and others are trying to drive off the feminist, er, invaders is by harassing them. That is, MRAs are appropriating the concept of “safe spaces” — designed to protect those in them from harassment and abuse — and using it as an excuse for … harassment and abuse.

But let’s step back a bit, because we still don’t have an answer as to why any of these “spaces” should be defined as male in the first place. How is atheism – the lack of a belief in god or gods – only a dude thing? When did guys get the right to call dibs on the gaming business?

Well, as mradiscus sees it, these “spaces” have traditionally been essentially nerdboy preserves, and should be protected from the pernicious influence of “female feminists” who, presumably, have no real interest in hacking or gaming or skepticism and whose real goal is just to make life hard for already beleaguered nerd dudes:

A scene predominantly populated by rather introverted young males becomes popular and attracts, among others, young women with a feminist mindset. Some of these women then go on and demand to be accommodated. Their demands are mostly met, and so we see the emergence of “gender awareness teams” at hacking conferences, no-means-no campaigns at anime conventions and a whole lot of conference panel slots devoted to “feminist this” and “gender that”.

Mradiscus then offers what I can only call a “revisionist” history of the harassment of feminist women from Rebecca Watson to Zoe Quinn:

What we also see is a whole lot of scandals. What seems to spark them most of the time is a overreaction to a minor offense, blown way out of proportion by a semi-popular feminist and her fan base who then proceed to launch an attack on the whole “misogynistic” scene. The young men feel cornered and unfairly attacked and retaliate with inappropriate and infelicitous measures which only leads to the feminists seeing their prejudices confirmed. Rape threat allegations are launched, there’s doxxing and name-calling all-around and new-found fame for a brave and courageous young feminist who may or may not proceed to make a career out of her struggle.

I should point out that none of the women who have allegedly “made … career[s] out of [their] struggles” actually asked to be harassed and demonized. If the harassers are angry that their harassment allowed Anita Sarkeesian to raise a lot more money than she asked for, they really have only themselves to blame.

Mradiscus ends with an ominous prediction-slash-threat that young men aren’t going to remain “patient” for much longer – and that things could get much worse for feminists venturing into these “male spaces.”

I wouldn’t be surprised, however, if the patience of these young nerdy men turns out to be a shallow well that’s drawing to a close. I sense quite a bit of alienation in the hacking and gaming sub-cultures when it comes to feminist topics. What do you think?

I think that you have a very strange notion of “patience.”

Naturally, MRAs being MRAs, mradiscus’ little manifesto – dripping with unexamined misogynistic assumptions and a quiet, curiously passive-aggressive rage – won praise and more than one hundred upvotes from the subreddit regulars.

The most extraordinary response to mradiscus’ rant was also the top-ranked comment, a long screed from a fellow calling himself a0i that argued, with complete seriousness (and occasional very confused references to the theories of Italian Marxist theorist Antonio Gramsci), that

The logic of how feminists target predominantly male spaces is very similar to the pattern of locust swarms.

Yep. Feminists are LOCUSTS.

Wherever there are men, there are targets for false accusations, male scapegoats, and fake victims. False accusations can’t happen without men, and neither can feminism. When there are too many women somewhere, you can’t claim that the environment is dominated by men, and feminists have nothing left to justify their presence. Feminists can’t thrive because they lack a scapegoat. They seek out a place where men are, and fabricate outrage at finding too many men in once place, at one time.

They have to find fresh environments with concentrations of male majorities, for “structures of misogyny” to pretend-struggle against. Thus, nerd culture being targeted, video games being targeted, Anita Sarkeesian making up being attacked, etc.

Yep, apparently all those hundreds of thousands of comments you might have seen attacking Sarkeesian all over the internet are nothing but a mirage.  That Flash game in which you could cover her face in bruises? You must have dreamed it.

It’s telling that a major feminist concern is for “women’s exclusive space”, while another feminist concern is for “women’s inclusion in male-dominated spaces”. They fight to get in, just to kick the men out.

Feminists demand unlimited access for women, as proof of men’s commitment to equality, but demand limited access for men, to prove men’s concern for safety.

Wat? I’m pretty sure no feminists are talking about excluding men from video gaming.

This works, despite the irony that — if you believed in their equality, you wouldn’t make special accommodations for their safety.

Uh, no, because if one group faces systematic oppression because of prejudice, the only way to ensure an egalitarian society is by making “special accommodations for their safety.” That’s why we have hate crime laws.

In the case of gaming, and atheism and tech in general, the only “special accommodations” feminists have asked for have been, you know, protection from sexual harassment and assault. Protections that also apply to men.

If there is one principle to understand about the tactics used to engineer women’s privilege over men in society, it is this:

  • what you intend to do to an opponent, you must accuse them of doing to you”

Frame your victim as your victimizer, put them in a position to want to prove themselves innocent. Frame your attacks as self-defense, frame your transgressions as righteous. Frame the enemy as using propaganda, make this part of your propaganda. Frame the enemy as a threat, before you launch your attack. Pretend to be a victim, while attacking the accused.

Apparently MRAs are utterly oblivious to irony.

 

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pallygirl
pallygirl
6 years ago

I disagreed with you and gave a reason, plus sought clarity to make sure I was correct in my interpretation of acceptable language on this blog – which was answered directly to me as I was the one asking the question – and you think I’m being dismissive and also passive aggressive?

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

Incognita,
If you’re still lurking, we just nearly had a mass exodus because so many people felt policed and silenced by one member. Everybody is on a hair trigger right now. It’s not a surprise that you got some pushback when complaining about an insult that we all use all the time. I don’t recall seeing you in that other thread so you can’t be expected to know about the drama but I just thought I’d let you know that it’s a really bad time to be seen as tone policing.

We do tend to feed trolls until they burst here and that includes insulting them. If you aren’t comfortable with that, maybe this isn’t the place for you. But if it’s all a miscommunication happening here I hope you stay.

Fibinachi
6 years ago

Yeah, that’s a bit confusing.

You know, for what it’s worth, I agree with Incognita Secunda. I don’t think Insanitybytes22 is stupid either. Or necessarily an idiot.

I think she’s very well aware of what she’s doing, and is coherent on another plane, a plane unattached to any understanding of conversation, logic, ethics, history, biology, astrophysics, mathematics, computational logic, cooking, sexual relations, economics and fashion design that I have, which renders her ideas and the way she expresses them just sort of…

Mindbogglingly strange.

Especially when, in some attempt to catch someone out in a faux pass, they change their assumed stand point to something else and do the jester dance of hardi-har-har-har-harr, YOU ARE ACTUALLY THE DEMONS.

Last time, she posted up a fancy blog post that sums her sojourn up as “I might not have made any progress in talking to you, and you might have clever out-argued me at every turn, but you spent 2 hours arguing with someone who calls themselves insanitybytes 22. On the internet.

So who’s really the bigger loser, HUH?!”

It’s like some kind of attempt at a introspective dialogue wherein someone questions someone else until the actual motivations beneath their aspirations are laid bare as the hideous monstrous cancers nesting in otherwise pristine thought they actually are, but Insanitybytes22 isn’t good enough at that to make it work, and has already also decided that feminists are monsters. So she’s not questioning anything, she’s poking for holes in an attempt to make her angle fit.

So, yeah. Hardly stupid, but certainly a stupid idiot, or at least one with idiotic ideas, or, I should say, a stupid, appalling way of framing her anti-feminism. I don’t know her personally, so as to her level of actual intelligence, I can’t say a word. And rather don’t intend to.

But she’s certainly acting in a consistently stupid manner, by which I mean dumb, by which I mean directly at odds with itself.
——

Anyhow, tempers running a little high. I think people are just accidentally miscommunicating, perhaps?

( Oh, and the point about not automatically assuming that people who have stupid ideas are themselves stupid, and thus in some sense worthy of their ideas and the only kind of stupid idiotic people who could ever fall for something so clearly stupid is, yeah, rather important.

But I also think many, many, many people mean stupid as I do, where what I use the word to convey is someone taking careful aim with their own hammer at their own thumbs and hammering away. Bloody stupid. Not necessarily unintelligent, but certainly doing damage to themselves and better served by just taking a step back that they, in their stupid arrogance, refuse to take )

Julie (ᴍᴄ) Galliard (@mcjulie)

Kootiepatra — right there with you. I didn’t realize I was a nerd until junior high. Didn’t all families sit down together to watch weekly Star Trek reruns?

Video games didn’t really stick with me as an adult interest, but when I was a kid, my brothers and I played our share of pong and home centipede. I’m the only one who’s noticeably nerdy as an adult. You really can’t tell me nerdiness is a boy thing and expect me to do anything other than laugh.

tcwill00
tcwill00
6 years ago

The first game that I was obsessed with was an AD&D game called Curse of the Azure Bonds. I loved it so much. This is a screenshot of the amazing graphics.

Oh man, I’m hip-deep in the first AD&D game SSI put out, Pool of Radiance. (Curse of the Azure Bonds is the second.) There are so many tiny frustrations in that game. Like my clerics have to make do with cure light wounds all through the game because cure serious wounds is a 4th level spell and the game doesn’t go above 3rd level spells.

And there’s nothing much to spend money on. You can get silvered armor and weapons, but they don’t seem to do anything. They don’t affect undead and there are no werewolves in the game. The only things I have found to spend money on are training, healing spells, and buying a special bow that allows my characters to add their Strength bonuses to damage (at 25,000 gp a pop).

Also, money is counted towards encumbrance, so I find myself having to leave piles of coin behind. At least it all counts for XP up front.

James Spasticus Nimmons

That Redditer is so moronic. His arguments or argument seeds- for lack of a better term- are ridiculously weak. How could anyone take him seriously? I spend tons of time fighting “the stupid” on the internet and i dont even want to argue with that sad sad person. It wouldn’t be a challenge. Kudos to anyone who wishes to argue with that wall. This is one of those cases where reality will put the burn on his utterly stupid and reachy ( i just made that up) goal (because its not a lofty one) of alienating women from games and those other spheres. Has the IQ of a wet tree stump that one.

cloudiah
6 years ago

@James, The ableism in your first and last sentences will not be received well here. Please try to avoid phrases like that.

ikanreed
ikanreed
6 years ago

Really, cloudiah? Do you genuinely mean that?

I’m pretty sure “moronic” has drifted outside the medical vernacular, and almost exclusively refers to more conventional human stupidity. You know the kinds of ignorance that hurts people. And while I get not wanting to dismiss peoples’ beliefs because of their IQ, it’s not exactly “ableism”, to suggest someone is of low intelligence when they say something stupid.

Honestly, I’d have to say I think genuinely disabled people are hurt more by trying to extend concern for discrimination against them to assholes who say poorly thought out things.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
6 years ago

@ikanreed:

And while I get not wanting to dismiss peoples’ beliefs because of their IQ, it’s not exactly “ableism”, to suggest someone is of low intelligence when they say something stupid.

That’s exactly what ableism is. Especially ironic is your use of IQ in relation to intelligence when IQ is a notoriously poor measure of it.

Even if you don’t agree with the idea, you can at least buy into the idea of being polite, right? There are so many ways to insult people for what causes what they do without causing splash damage. Call a sexist a sexist.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
6 years ago

@ikanreed:

Honestly, I’d have to say I think genuinely disabled people are hurt more by trying to extend concern for discrimination against them to assholes who say poorly thought out things.

Meanwhile it is totally not offensive to disabled people to use that disability as a label for assholes.

cloudiah
6 years ago

Those two sentences combined made me feel like I should say something. Maybe others will disagree. :: shrugs ::

In any case, what’s really at issue here is the misogyny, IMO.

blahlistic (@blahlistic)

Might I suggest there’s a difference between being intellectually challenged and willfully sticking one’s head up one’s butt?
The former’s pretty offensive to make fun of, but as willful ignorance is voluntary…well…

So one should clarify, I suppose.

pallygirl
pallygirl
6 years ago

I’m with you cloudiah and kirbywarp. This whole situation just feels weird. Literally (hooray I get to use that word!) on the same page of comments, addressing the whole acceptable terms for people who say/do silly things, we have had both extremes:
– one person not happy with the language that is used on the blog and wanting it changed so that currently used words are unacceptable
– one person not happy with the language that is used on the blog and wanting it changed so that currently not used words are acceptable.

I don’t think I have seen such a juxtaposition before.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
6 years ago

Bleh, came out guns blazing, before remembering that everyone just got finished with another long painful discussion on terminology…

Basically, my idea is this; our culture has a habit of calling murderers and the like “crazy,” because if they kill people obviously they must not be sane, right? Wrong. Perfectly sane people can do terrible things.

Likewise, the smartest people in the world can say bigoted and sexist things. Look at Richard Dawkins. The correct response is not to question their intelligence, that makes it seem as if smart people couldn’t possibly hold the sexist viewpoint. Seems to me we should just tell it like it is.

That’s my personal framing on things like ablism, anyway. I realize that “stupid” is not considered a forbidden insult on this blog, so it’s more of a personal rule I’ve been trying to follow. Still, there is a point where you can go overboard, and I feel like James’s post went there.

hellkell
hellkell
6 years ago

NWO was here and I missed it? Damn.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
6 years ago

@hellkell:

Sadly, he didn’t stay long. I was pretty excited too. I wonder if he’s thinking of coming back as a regular troll?

Athywren
Athywren
6 years ago

Weird… I was about to say “Really, Cloudiah?” too… except for the exact opposite reason.
Pretty sure it hurts disabled people whenever the slurs used to degrade them are thrown around – even when they’re used against assholes who say poorly thought out things. Look at it this way – would you think it’s ok to call those assholes a bunch of girly, cunting whores?

ANYWAY! Really, Cloudiah? Seems like stupid and idiot are fine, at least according to another thread I was reading earlier, but they’re not really that much better that what James said. Sure, it’s less bad, but it’s still insensitive.
I mean, the way I look at things, if someone says something hurts them, and if it doesn’t really mean much to you, you should drop it. Obviously you don’t drop everything just because someone says so – I’m not going to stop using the word “irrational” just because some conspiracy theorist is offended by it, but… you know… stuff.

Athywren
Athywren
6 years ago

Oh… no wonder I couldn’t find that other page… it’s this one… ah.

cloudiah
6 years ago

@Athywren, apparently it has been decreed by other folks that those are all fine; I have a dissenting opinion. I don’t like “stupid” or “idiot” either, and try not to use them (though I sometimes slip up).

Incognita Secunda
6 years ago

So, okay: this is at least the second, maybe the third time I’ve said ths, and I am wrestling with myself about bothering, but I will try again. I did not, at any point here, say that a oarticular term or usage should be off limits. I am not a moderator, and I am not trying to act like one. I am not telling anyone what she can or cannot say here.

I said that seeing people called stupid/idiots/dumb because they were espousing MRA/PUA ideology and making poor arguments made me uncomfortable because (1) I’m not convinced that’s accurate, because I think the desire to say these things comes from a psychological need to reinforce sexist norms, rather than a lack of intelligence and (2) I think characterizing people who make those arguments in that way tends to lead us to underestimate our opponents, which is strategically dangerous.

Now, if you disagree with me, okay, fine. Disagree with me and do your thing. I can opt to keep reading or not. But please stop portraying me as policing language when I am not doing that.

Athywren
Athywren
6 years ago

@Cloudiah
Well fair enough, I also slip up.
Anyway, I don’t want to restart the fight that I apparently missed, so I’ll just register also having a dissenting opinion, make a quiet comment, and then bite my tongue about it.

When someone tells you that a certain behaviour hurts them, and you refuse to change that, you are saying, metaphorically, that this is a hill you’re willing to die on. Seems like there needs to be a good reason for that.

Tongue biting commences… now.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

FWIW, I do agree that stupidity is not what makes people become MRAs. Someone can be extremely intelligent and still be a raging misogynist, a fact that Richard Dawkins seems to be determined to provide weekly proof of.

Alex
6 years ago

Well, stupidity does not a misogynist make, but “stupid” is still a pretty good descriptor for a poorly thought out comment, right? Or for people who make a lot of said comments.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

As a description for a stupid comment than stupid is indeed just fine, imo. I hadn’t read the earlier part of this thread and ugh, please not another huge fight so soon after the last one.

Athywren
Athywren
6 years ago

*release*
Ridiculous, laughable, absurd, nonsensical, bizzare, fishy, cool story bro, irrational, weapons grade bullshit…
*chomp*

Athywren
Athywren
6 years ago

….speaking of weapons grade bullshit… I live near fields. Yesterday I went on a pleasant walk between a row of fields to the next village/suburb over for purposes. I picked the wrong field to be downwind of. YEESCH!

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

Lol! Fishy always makes me go “so? Fish are awesome!” That’s neither here nor there really, but, you know, somebody said fish and thus summoned me.

Athywren
Athywren
6 years ago

Psh, fish are always giving it the side eye. They’re up to something, I’m tellin’ ya!

Kestrel
Kestrel
6 years ago

I have never been able to understand why my asking to be treated as an equal human being is so threatening to some men. I just want to be able to play my favorite RPGs, while playing a female character, and not look like a sex worker. I frequently play fighters. There is no warrior worth their salt who wants to tank in a chain mail bikini.

If the MRA gamers need a safe space to game without wimmin they are free to go create it.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Armor that actually protects your vital organs really doesn’t seem like too much to ask for.

Tracy
Tracy
6 years ago

I just want to be able to play my favorite RPGs, while playing a female character, and not look like a sex worker. I frequently play fighters. There is no warrior worth their salt who wants to tank in a chain mail bikini.

QFT! I’m not melee fighting with a bare midriff, or forearms even.

I wonder if those who complain about women ‘invading’ gaming have any idea how long gaming has been around? I mean just in terms of electronic gaming, I started out on a TRS80 computer in the early 80’s (complete with a tape deck to load games! and a dot matrix printer!) playing text-based adventure games, and playing games in arcades – with guys and girls. Atari at my best friend’s house. Then, Nintendo… and long hours of gaming alone, or with friends (mostly girls) or with boyfriends.

Cut to today and I’m 39, and still gaming. I’ve been here a long time, and it wasn’t a men-only space when I got here… so what’s the fuss? I mean, no-one ever ‘owned’ the space to begin with, except the ppl playing games.

Speaking of which, AC Black Flag is calling & I am grinding for wealth, though I should be diving for my elite plans but I hate the diving missions. (Anyone else play?)

Nitram
6 years ago

Claim: we need “safe space” from feeemal wrecking the dudebro ribbing with their PC crap. Go create your own feeemale space, no one’s stopping you!

Translation:
I suffer from privilege blindness therefore every space is a male space by default.

Robert
Robert
6 years ago

I don’t need gaming to be a male-only space*. What is so viscerally unpleasant about interacting with women that these men are this distressed by their presence? I think I know, but it doesn’t say anything very positive about the men involved.

Shut up, Woody.

*I have my home life for that.

blahlistic (@blahlistic)

I said that seeing people called stupid/idiots/dumb because they were espousing MRA/PUA ideology and making poor arguments made me uncomfortable because (1) I’m not convinced that’s accurate, because I think the desire to say these things comes from a psychological need to reinforce sexist norms, rather than a lack of intelligence and (2) I think characterizing people who make those arguments in that way tends to lead us to underestimate our opponents, which is strategically dangerous.

I find nothing to disagree with.

GrumpyOldMan
6 years ago

First, historically, the terms “moron”, “imbecile”, and “idiot” were used to classify degrees of mental retardation, so it would seem like they are all ableist (if any is). I am not the one who disparaged ableist language; indeed I throw it around quite liberally in other places. However, I am just trying to abide by the standards of this community while I am here. (And, on that point, is “deranged” acceptable?)

Second, regarding insanitybytes, I believe she is playing a game in which we are all the foils.
“Have women always been there or have women just arrived and are demanding inclusion?”
There was very general agreement here that women have always been “there” and her implication that our arguments were conflicting was clearly advanced in very bad faith. I do not think she is one bit stupid or at all confused about what she is doing. She comes here making straw-woman comments about feminism, pushes some peoples’ buttons. engages in some fol-de-rol in which she exhibits the logical equivalent of the proverbial greased pig, and then goes back to her blog to recount how she stymied the mean feminists and totally defeated them with her calm reasonableness and blinding wit. Rather than calling her names, we need to point out where she is playing fast-and-loose with her arguments and, most of the time, arguing in bad faith.

kittehserf
6 years ago

Well congratulations, another person driven from the site by fucking word-policing straight after the previous policer of words nearly caused an exodus.

Fucking well done, brilliant, yay. What the hell are we, Shakesville Lite?

Blahlistic said it best about stupid, for me:

Might I suggest there’s a difference between being intellectually challenged and willfully sticking one’s head up one’s butt?
The former’s pretty offensive to make fun of, but as willful ignorance is voluntary…well…

GrumpyOldMan
6 years ago

Sorry, kittehserf, I am just trying to make sure that I don’t use offensive language. I tend to be a clumsy oaf at times, both physically and verbally, and at the present time I am trying (as a result of having been involved in the scrotosphere issue with very negative consequences) to decide whether it is really appropriate for me to continue to comment on this blog. (I plan to continue to lurk in any case.)

blahlistic (@blahlistic)

(And, on that point, is “deranged” acceptable?)

Home, home of deranged…

I don’t find it irksome, I think when someone starts slapping diagnoses on people, that’s kinda hurtful.
…I’ve met schizophrenics in cyberspace who seem far nicer and more screwed into reality than many MRM peeps…

kittehserf
6 years ago

GrumpyOldMan, if anyone uses a really offensive word, it’ll get called out. I’d hate to see you go, I enjoy your comments. I’m also sick to death of the residual policing going on, which smacks all too much of the daily updates on what words or ideas we could talk about, according to one person.

Anyone who’s lurked or commented here any time at all knows (or should) to try to avoid ableist terms – crazy, ret*rded (not sure if that gets filtered) and so on. But when it gets to the point where saying a troll or MRA or whoever is stupid gets treated as ableism, that strikes me as just precious. What next, jokes about cherry blossoms are not allowed? (Shakesville reference.)

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

I think the best word for the MRA mindset is “petulant”, honestly.

kittehserf
6 years ago

Bratrage.

Athywren
Athywren
6 years ago

Doing a really bad job of biting my tongue, but…

But when it gets to the point where saying a troll or MRA or whoever is stupid gets treated as ableism, that strikes me as just precious.

Are we ok to call them whiny little bitches then?

kittehserf
6 years ago

Knock it OFF, Athywren. Stupid isn’t a fucking slur.

You happy, coming back to the blog and helping push pallygirl off? Because that’s what’s happened.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

You might want to try biting a bit harder, dude, either that or have a rethink about whether or not “if you don’t agree with me I’m going to try to prove my point by using misogynistic terms on an anti-misogyny blog” is likely to be a winning strategy.

kittehserf
6 years ago

Hey, Athywren: did you read the shit that came about from Ally’s language policing here and how much it’d been stressing people out? It’s in the first War Machine thread. If you haven’t read it, go and do so. We’ve had about enough of this crap lately and you are not helping.

strivingally
6 years ago

I don’t even know what’s going on here. A couple of weeks ago, this blog was full of people who took one another’s good intentions as a given, even if there was occasional friction and spirited discussion on one point or another. Now it feels a little like the assumption of good faith (between regulars, I mean, not obvious trolls) has gone out the window. I think rules against slurs are a great idea, but when they stop being used as an insulative way to make a space slightly safer and start being used as a bludgeon, that doesn’t sit well with me. I know pretty much all the regulars here have good intentions and no intentions of kicking down on the oppressed. To see the opposite being suggested bewilders and saddens me.

contrapangloss
6 years ago

Strivingally, you and me both.

You can hide under my “only posting silly things until things settle to preserve my brain” rock too, if you’d like.

Athywren
Athywren
6 years ago

I’m sorry, but seriously? Stupid is a hill that people are willing to die on?
Look, if somebody tells me that a word I’m using hurts them, if that word’s not vital to communicating and they’re not just making shit up to screw with me, then I’m going to drop it. I don’t understand what’s so important about the word that it’s something people are going to run away over criticisms of it. What possible reasoning is there to justify hurting people with our laziness? I don’t care if the OED, SPLC, or just this group defines it as not a slur, I don’t see the value in hurting people because I couldn’t just think of a different word.

I know I wasn’t here for this big fight, I know I’ve only just come back, so maybe I’m missing something, and I’m sorry to have caused trouble but running away because people are talking about how stupid isn’t a great word, or in Incognita’s case that it’s simply inaccurate and opens us up to criticism? That kinda seems a bit of an entitled reaction to me.

You might want to try biting a bit harder, dude, either that or have a rethink about whether or not “if you don’t agree with me I’m going to try to prove my point by using misogynistic terms on an anti-misogyny blog” is likely to be a winning strategy.

Why wouldn’t it be a winning strategy? How is it not just as precious to treat misogynist comments against MRAs as misogyny as it is to treat ableist comments as ableism? What’s the distinction? Do we just care about one more than the other?

Fine, though, other than this comment, and unless you want to discuss this, I’ll just keep quiet about it from now on.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

To be clearer – the idea that “stupid” is a slur is contentious, and we appear to have people on both sides of that argument here. The suggestion that it’s a slur in as clear and obvious a way as “bitch”, and that this is therefore a valid comparison to make when attempting to convince people who disagree with you to adopt your viewpoint, when those people are feminists, and you are on a feminist blog…well, I’m not annoyed so much as sitting here with raised eyebrows going “really? that seemed like a good idea?”.

Athywren
Athywren
6 years ago

I don’t avoid “bitch” because it’s been demonstrated to me that it’s a slur. I avoid it because I see its use hurt people, and because I don’t have to use it.

Anyway, looking up the war machine thread now, and otherwise shutting up.