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Men Going Their Own Way agree: "The economic of Sex for women is at 0%"

The price of ladies is plummeting!
The price of ladies is plummeting!

Some thoughts on the economics of sex from the fellas over at MGTOWHQ.com.

It’s not looking good for the ladies, at least according to the guys who’ve decided they’re totally over women, honest, but who somehow can’t stop talking about how totally over women they are, honest.

A fellow called TheShaman offers some thoughts on the complete worthlessness of women after they hit the proverbial “wall” somewhere shy of age 40 and are suddenly transformed from swans back into ugly ducklings. He starts off with an idea cribbed directly from good old Warren Farrell before moving on to more advanced Cock Carousel Theory (CCT):

A woman, traditionally, would have used her youth and beauty as a down-payment to a man, to secure his loyalty so that he would stay with her for what could be as long as 50 years of Post-Wall woman.

Nowadays women squander their SMV wealth on bad boys, giving away all their value to Alpha Fucks, and then expect that Beta’s to provide the bucks to settle their massive debts. Especially women in the West- all of the sweetness once expected from women is gone- no ability to cook, no desire to please, no willingness to make a man’s life better. These cock carousel riders only feel like settling down and getting married when they have maybe 1-3 years of decent youth left to her.

A woman truly only has, maybe, 20 good years to her. Afterward, she becomes an aging monster, increasingly bitter over the fact that her best years are behind her.

Women- NEVER BUY.

Not all of the assembled MGTOWers are willing to agree with TheShaman’s radical proposition – that is, that women ever have any value.

As Hank Moody sees it, women are worthless long before they hit the wall:

The economic of Sex for women is at 0%. Its over for cunts, the cat is out of the bag. No sane man will pay for some used slut.

Wallkeeper, meanwhile, reminds the fellas that they’re the real prize. Hooray for fellas!

men must realize that we’re the prize, women are just a sexual fantasy, an accessory, a luxury.
a man can live without sex and without women, a woman cannot live without men.

In return for these valuable insights, I would like to offer all Men Going Their Own Way some concrete suggestions on where exactly they might go. How about one of these lovely islands, all conveniently devoid of women and other humans?

 

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weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

I’m pretty happy to be unworthy of misogynists. May their boners forever be sad.

Robert
Robert
6 years ago

My husband and I hyphenated when we got married. Years later, when I became an officer at my Masonic lodge, the invitation we received was addressed to
Mr. and Mr. Robert Mylastname-Hislastname. I found that delightful

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

Robert, you’re an illuminati member? I had no idea :O

I kid.

BigMomma
BigMomma
6 years ago

I married Mr BigMomma after 14 years together, a mortgage and one kid. I kept my name because it’s my name and I’ve never had another. And because I feel pretty strongly about not symbolically submerging my identity. People still assume that I changed my name despite my repeated polite corrections. My father-in-law was quietly horrified that I didn’t change my name but respected me enough to not make an issue of it. We briefly discussed my husband taking my name but then he’d have the exact same name as my dad. Both kids have his surname. I chose that, it’s a nicer name than mine.

BigMomma
BigMomma
6 years ago

Pish, the italic gremlin, distant cousin to blockquote monster dropped by to say hi.

cloudiah
6 years ago

I’m actually up late enough to wave at BigMomma!

:: waves goofily ::

Kat
Kat
6 years ago

So, I’m still confused about this.

“Nowadays women squander their SMV wealth on bad boys, giving away all their value to Alpha Fucks, and then expect that Beta’s to provide the bucks to settle their massive debts.”

I thought these people considered themselves the “alphas”? Or is it a difference between MGTOWs and the other misogynist groups? What am I missing? Someone halp.

emilygoddess - MOD
emilygoddess - MOD
6 years ago

In a prefect world, the future fiancee and I would both hyphenate. But n this imperfect world, his last name is already a hyphenate, and one of his is even harder to spell than mine.

I kept my name because it’s my name and I’ve never had another. And because I feel pretty strongly about not symbolically submerging my identity.

This and this. Emily MyLastName is my name. I’ve answered to it for 30 years.

It’s also my dad’s and brother’s name, and I feel like I’d lose that connection to my family. And yeah, I know that historically marriage has often meant the woman moving from one family to another and changing her name to reflect that, but it’s just not for me.

Also, the phrase “Mr and Mrs HisName” has never not creeped me the fuck out. I kinda don’t want to take his name just out of sheer contrariness.

We briefly discussed my husband taking my name but then he’d have the exact same name as my dad.

Hah. The only reason I’ve even considered changing my name is because my brother married a woman named Emily, so now we’re both Emily MyLastName. At least he has the grace to call me “Emily 1” 😉

teacat
teacat
6 years ago

I changed my name when I got married and yes, it was mostly because my maiden name is a pain to spell and teach people how to pronounce. The worst part is that the word that makes the best pronunciation guide for the first part of it is also a word people always confound with another word that is one letter off but sounds completely different >:/.

Recently, two friends got married and they picked a really cool new last name based on a German word that had a lot of personal meaning for them. It made me wish we would’ve been creative with the appropriate level of not-silliness to come up with a meaningful new last name (Westeros came into those brainstorming sessions a bit too much), but that just wasn’t us.

What I mean to say is: Do what ya gotta do and whatever works best for both of you, marrieds and marrieds-to-be!

…either way, I really wish I’d just changed my name personally/professionally and left it as is legally. I wish I’d known that wasn’t so complicated a thing to pull off before I wrote the new name on the marriage license and sent in for the new SS card.

BigMomma
BigMomma
6 years ago

*waves back at Cloudiah* I’m procrastinating at work and reading WHTM rather than writing case plans.

teacat
teacat
6 years ago

Though I guess that wouldn’t have fixed the having to spell my maiden name on the phone thing as much, heh.

cloudiah
6 years ago

Procrastinating at work? I’ve never done that! I never would do that!

:: does that all the time ::

dustedeste
dustedeste
6 years ago

Well, since the surname conversation has come up, I’m going to give my reasoning for my changing my last name:

1. I wanted a way to ceremonially sever ties with my family. They’re conservative buttholes, and my parents were abusive. Changing my last name was something that was significant to me, but because they expected me to do it, I didn’t have to deal with their whining and moaning and arguing about it. It was a covert rebellion.

2. I thought my husband’s surname would be easier for people to spell and pronounce. “Thought” being the operative word – turns out it confuses the fuck out of people and I have to spell it out and correct pronunciation even more than with my old surname – oh well, joke’s on me.

3. Directly after marrying, I was applying to immigrate to Canada via a family visa (based on my new marital ties). I thought that changing my name would strengthen the likelihood of my application being considered low-risk and strong, and that it might minimize my chances of having to go through an inconvenient interview process. Yes, these expectations that I hoped to fulfill are patriarchal, but we live in a patriarchal world, and sometimes it’s just not worth the risk to stick it to the man.

4. I kept my old surname as a second middle name. This isn’t really a reason, of course, but I didn’t just kick it to the curb. The new name incorporates my old name, and was, again, a ceremonially significant change signifying to myself my finally-attained physical and mental distance from my controlling family.

5. Hyphenating would have resulted in a five-syllable, eighteen-character last name with three capitalized letters and an odd space. I also found the faux-German plus very-Italian mix to be grating, personally.

6. I didn’t actually discuss this with my fiancé-now-husband. I just made my decision and informed him of it, and then went about my business of changing my name. When I told him, he was actually really surprised, and told me that he had expected that I would either just not change my name, or would ask him to change his, which he would have probably done, after considering it. But the point is that it was my decision, and he didn’t get a vote on it: I did this for my reasons, and not at anyone else’s urging.

Do I think that these are feminist reasons for changing my surname, or that changing it was a feminist act? No, not really, but they are a feminist’s reasons, and being a feminist does not entail that all one’s actions be explicitly feminist. What I do think is that I made a decision that was right for me.

(Sorry for the teal deer, it is a thing I spent a lot of time thinking about! Also I feel weird every time it comes up in feminist circles, because I feel like there’s a good bit of side-eye for women who changed their names, especially if they weren’t heavily coerced into doing it.)

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

Personally, I have no desire to change my name if I ever marry. Changing names is a huge pain. I observed that when my mother changed back to her old name after my parents divorced. It took years to get everything sorted particularly my grandparent’s estate when they died because they never changed her name in all the paperwork that made her and my aunt their heirs. I never want to go through that. Also of course, there’s the wife as property being transferred from father to husband quality that I dislike. My last name is already 9 letters long so hyphenating doesn’t sound appealing either.

That said, I don’t judge what others choose to do. Dustedeste, your reasons sound perfectly reasonable to me and I hope other feminists don’t give you a hard time about it.

BigMomma
BigMomma
6 years ago

@dustedeste, no side eye from me. Sorry if it I sounded as if I was criticising, even by implication. Your decisions were as personal and as thought out as mine. It’s fascinating though that we all have a story and a detailed reasoning process as to why we did or didn’t change our names.

dustedeste
dustedeste
6 years ago

Oh I didn’t mean I felt like anyone specific here was going to give me the evil eye over the whole thing! More that I feel self-conscious about it and feel that there is that kind of sentiment in feminism at large – as if women should be blamed for adhering to an idea that is, at least on the most surface-level, admittedly quite patriarchal, and as if, even if they had other reasons beyond the surface-level patriarchal ones to do so, it is a betrayal of the cause to change one’s name. If that makes sense?

BigMomma
BigMomma
6 years ago

dustedeste, no, I get what you are saying. Feels a bit ‘damned if you do, damned if you don’t’ because I definitely got the side eye from my father-in-law, along with all the assumptions. And the flip side of it is as you describe, where you have to justify why you changed your name if you want tor retain your feminist access all areas pass. It’s really nobody’s business and I generally assume people have their reasons either way that have nothing to do with me.

Wetherby
Wetherby
6 years ago

Fibinachi:

My guess is you’ve had some bad experiences with that phrase and fools, in a gloriously sad combination, but Wetherby’s cool (and did in fact go on to say that if name-changing had been required, he’d have changed the name himself, and his wife would not, so there you go).

And I made that point specifically to forestall the kind of knee-jerk response that my comment ended up getting anyway!

Cloudiah:

My sister always said she wanted to change her name when she got married because our last name can sound like sexual innuendo if you don’t enunciate carefully.

My wife’s first married name was the very definition of sexual innuendo (and without any careless enunciation required either), and I’m frankly amazed that anyone with her ear for unfortunate double meanings not only changed to it in the first place but sported it for so long, although she dropped it almost immediately after the divorce came through.

But one of the reasons she was quite happy to change her name three times over a decade is that, like your sister, she never liked her birth name, which is why she wanted an excuse to change it in the first place and didn’t want to revert to it when she wanted to ditch her second name. An ex of mine felt the same way, and reverted to her first married name after separating from her second husband, purely because she preferred the sound. (She was right: that was easily the name that tripped off the tongue most mellifluously.)

But I cannot stress enough that these were all individual personal decisions that are in no way intended to represent women in general. In fact, my original point was that people can go along with “the 90%” for entirely personal reasons that have nothing to do with giving into social pressure – and since the two women mentioned above are about as tungsten-willed when it comes to other matters as it’s possible to imagine, the notion that they’d meekly cave in over something like this is hilarious.

My husband and I hyphenated when we got married. Years later, when I became an officer at my Masonic lodge, the invitation we received was addressed to
Mr. and Mr. Robert Mylastname-Hislastname. I found that delightful.

When a friend of mine married, he ended up hyphenating his surname with his husband’s, although his husband retained his original surname. As with the other examples above, it was their choice and their rules.

Kim
Kim
6 years ago

Also, the phrase “Mr and Mrs HisName” has never not creeped me the fuck out.

I find it particularly creepy when it’s Mrs HisFirstName HisLastName. Like, even when she’s by herself she has no identity of her own. Thank goodness this seems to be out of favour – I don’t think I’ve heard it outside of period piece tv/movies, but it creeps me out when I do hear it. Just the thought that it was ever the done thing.

Wetherby
Wetherby
6 years ago

I find it particularly creepy when it’s Mrs HisFirstName HisLastName. Like, even when she’s by herself she has no identity of her own. Thank goodness this seems to be out of favour – I don’t think I’ve heard it outside of period piece tv/movies, but it creeps me out when I do hear it. Just the thought that it was ever the done thing.

The Hungarian equivalent is even creepier. You don’t just get “Mrs Béla Bartók”, you get “Bartók Bélané” – in other words, their equivalent of “Mrs” isn’t just a detachable suffix, it fuses with the husband’s first name and completely erases the wife’s in the process.

I’ve even seen this on film credits – in fact, I first noticed the practice when I wondered why a film with plenty of female characters seemingly had no overtly female names in the credits. I initially assumed that names like Gáborné and Jánosné were the female equivalent of Gábor and János (a reasonable supposition for someone ignorant of the culture) until I did a bit more digging and found out the truth.

And since this practice dates back centuries, it’s created a headache for historians:

It is unfortunate that we don’t have many records of women’s names. To date, in fact, I have seen only a dozen Hungarian feminine given names dated prior to 1500. Why is this? Certainly there must have been women present in Hungary before this time, so why isn’t there a record of them?

The answer lies partly in the nature of the source material in which we find early Hungarian names. Most of these are official documents or census reports, and so will mention the heads of households and estates. In most cases, these are men.

Additionally, a woman’s official use name is constructed from her husband’s name by adding the suffix -ne to his given name. As an example, a woman named Anna who is married to Tar Jakab (bald Jacob), would be recorded in official documents and would introduce herself in polite company as Tar Jakabne (bald Jacob’s wife). This is similar to the English practice of using Mrs..

This does not mean that women did not have and did not use their own given names, but because they were seldom written down, we have far less information about feminine names than masculine ones. Most of our records of Hungarian feminine given names come from the 16th century, and are combined with bynames in the same general patterns of construction as masculine names.

kittehserf
6 years ago

I wouldn’t change my name again, I think, ‘cos I paid good money to change it the first time – from my birth name (which was reasonably easy to spell) to my mum’s surname (which isn’t). But the birth name was my father’s adoptive surname, so meant zilch to me.

Were Mr K here in earth-flesh I might change my name to his, or more likely hyphenate them to be really posh, though there’d be no end of stupid alcohol jokes (Bourbon).

NonServiam
6 years ago

If I get married, I think I’ll keep the name I have now. It means Wolf in old, old Irish – so like, beat that. Maybe if the other possible name was Dragonheart or something, I’d consider.

Wetherby
Wetherby
6 years ago

My sister married a man named Smith. She kept her original name.

(I suspect she’d have done so anyway, but there really wasn’t much incentive there!)

Bina
Bina
6 years ago

I’m pretty happy to be unworthy of misogynists. May their boners forever be sad.

Likewise. I couldn’t be happier to be Sexually Invisible to them.

GrumpyOldNurse
GrumpyOldNurse
6 years ago

I’m actually just shacked up, so changing my name to his was not really on the table. I honestly prefer Mr. Grump’s nice, plain English surname over my Germanic, too many words surname. On the other hand, it’s loads of fun to see the looks on certain people’s faces when they’ve read my Germanic sounding name, and then meet not at all German looking me! Boom go the ethnic expectations!

What’s funny to me is how the name change expectation seems to be tied to class. I’ve known a few doctors, and the women hardly ever change their names on marriage. I know one couple who hyphenated and both changed their names, and can only think of one doctor-doctor pairing where she took his name. That caused a bit of confusion with overhead paging at the hospital!

Anyhow, I really think that trying to police people on that level of very personal choice is so inappropriate! Mind yer own business! (Not actually suggesting that anyone here isn’t doing that, more a general invictive against busy-bodies).

idledillettante
6 years ago

To clarify to the regulars: I’m sorry if I offended anybody by bringing up the topic of surname changes. I wanted to use it to exemplify how marriage (contrary to the MGTOW fairy tale) has been (and in many ways) still is about men.

I don’t want anybody to feel self-conscious for choosing to change their names when they married; that’s obviously personal and should be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. After all, it’s your name; and I have no idea whether or not I’ll change my name if I marry or not. It would depend on what name it is and a bunch of other factors, like everyone described above.

It’s a kind of traditionalism, to be sure; but I don’t think it makes anyone a “bad feminist” to change their names when they marry. If I implied or stated that to anyone (including Wetherby), I apologize. I also don’t think it makes a woman a “bad feminist” to stay home and raise her children instead of work a paying job, or that feminism is somehow incompatible with domesticity or traditionally feminine work. In fact I think any ‘feminist’ who thinks that is the actually bad feminist in the bunch.

And Wetherby – It’s not the content, it’s the mansplaining. I’m sure there were plenty of good reasonable reasons your wife changed her name… in fact, you explained them at length. But to do so you kind of had to hold her up for discussion and evaluation to the rest of us; so that you could discuss something you didn’t do and a thing which men aren’t expected to do.

You said your wife’s strong-willed, and I don’t doubt that; but to start speaking on her behalf robs her of agency, and puts you in the driver’s seat of explaining why she does things. I’ve no idea whether she knows we’re talking about her; or whether she’s cool w/ what’s being said. And that would seem to put her in an unfair position.

FWIW I hope we can see past this disagreement, because I realize I was a little too harsh with you above. There’s probably loads I have to learn about feminist thought before I can write it like DF.

-Caroline.

Wetherby
Wetherby
6 years ago

And Wetherby – It’s not the content, it’s the mansplaining.

But I don’t think that I was “mansplaining”. For me, the term pretty much requires an element of condescension for it to be valid, and I genuinely don’t think it’s present at all in my original post.

And while it’s all too clear both from your original response and this follow-up that you were divining it in some form, it absolutely wasn’t intended on my part – as was recognised by the people who came to my defence even before I had a chance to read your original response.

I’m sure there were plenty of good reasonable reasons your wife changed her name… in fact, you explained them at length. But to do so you kind of had to hold her up for discussion and evaluation to the rest of us; so that you could discuss something you didn’t do and a thing which men aren’t expected to do.

…but which I said in my original post I’d have been quite prepared to do, had things panned out not especially differently.

Indeed, had my wife not been so determined to ditch her third surname, I’d have actively considered adopting it myself – the regulars here will know that we’ve spent much of our married life questioning traditional roles (just to cite one example, because I can work from home and she can’t, I’m the primary childcarer), so this wouldn’t have been a particularly huge stretch on my part.

You said your wife’s strong-willed, and I don’t doubt that; but to start speaking on her behalf robs her of agency, and puts you in the driver’s seat of explaining why she does things. I’ve no idea whether she knows we’re talking about her; or whether she’s cool w/ what’s being said. And that would seem to put her in an unfair position.

But you in turn are putting me in an unfair position, not least by just cherry-picking the bits of my post that annoyed you instead of reading the whole thing properly and thereby realising that I don’t comfortably fit the pigeonhole that you were determined to force me into. Or at least picking up a strong hint that there might be some chafing involved.

Quite aside from anything else, people post about their significant others all the time round here, including the vast majority of the regulars. It’s one of the reasons this is such a friendly and welcoming space: our offline lives aren’t considered off-topic.

FWIW I hope we can see past this disagreement, because I realize I was a little too harsh with you above.

I’m very happy to – and am equally happy to acknowledge that you said as much even before my original response. Which in retrospect I should have acknowledged at the time, so apologies for that.