If the Men’s Rights movement is looking for a celebrity endorser, I think I’ve found just the guy for them: the mixed martial arts fighter, and erstwhile porn actor, War Machine, currently sitting in jail on charges of brutally beating and attempting to kill his ex-girlfriend, porn star Christy Mack.
Men’s Rights activists should be able to look past these criminal charges; after all, as they remind us all the time, women are forever falsely accusing innocent men of all sorts of terrible things.
And in so many ways War Machine is perfect for them. An MMA fighter, he’s already only one letter away from being an MRA. A misogynistic asshole with rage issues, he’ll have no trouble fitting in with the Men’s Rights crowd. And, especialy important for a movement that has a lot of trouble getting any good PR, he’s a bit more comfortable on camera than the Paul Elams and Dean Esmays of the world, with experience on television (on the reality show The Ultimate Fighter: Team Hughes vs. Team Serra), and in seven films (albeit pornographic ones).
Best of all: he’ll need no ideological education from what A Voice for Men likes to call Fuck Shit Up University. War Machine – real name Jonathan Koppenhaver – is already an outspoken proponent of many of the Men’s Rights Movement’s core beliefs.
Consider these selections from a little Men’s Rights manifesto War Machine wrote a few years ago during a previous stint behind bars, serving time for felony assault after two bloody bar fights. His rant, which a friend posted to the internet, would fit right in with the sort of stuff we’ve seen regularly posted on the Men’s Rights subreddit, or The Spearhead, or A Voice for Men. I’ve bolded some of the Men’s Rightsiest bits:
The oppression of MEN is worse than oppression of Jews in Nazi germany, worse than the slavery of Blacks in early America…
There has always been the oppressor and always the oppressed. Before, it was blatant … NOW the oppressor has learned to disguise his evil. You can see man, but you can not see MEN. How easy it is to oppress a minority that is invisible to the eye! How genius of the oppressor! And what a better target too! …
Men challenge injustice from Government, MEN fight for their Constitutional rights, that are slowly being taken away every year. …
And they don’t just oppress us by making more laws and taking away more freedom, they are far more clever than that! Ask yourself what your REAL dream was?? If you gave up on this dream, why? Because of the brainwashing of the Government, that’s why! They taught you to “play it safe.” They told us a responsible man has ONE wife, a house, good credit, good job, and kids. How are you supposed to chase your dreams while maintaining all of that!?
Men are supposed to take risks and be aggressive! What accomplishments have ever come of a man scared to risk it all!? None!? Where would the world be? Still ‘flat!’ Still ‘Earth at the center of the universe!’
If any of you have your Men’s Rights Bingo cards out, I’m guessing you might already be close to scoring a bingo. We’ve got a comparison to slavery that could have come straight from the pages of A Voice for Men, a marriage-is-death-to-male-dreams rant that could have been borrowed from any MGTOW forum, and an evo-psych-esque argument that men are the true risk-takers and the world’s real innovators.
And I don’t think War Machine would have much trouble with Paul Elam’s “Bash a Violent Bitch Month,” either.
[I]t’s Christmas day and I’m laying in my bunk wondering “Why in the hell do American men get married!?” … If your wife is being a bitch you can’t slap her, if your wife is yelling at you, God forbid you yell back … Next thing you know it will be illegal to fuck your wife! LMAO! Maybe then, MEN in this country will get the fucking hint and MOVE! This country forces you to be a bitch!
In another online posting, War Machine touched on another Men’s Rights hobbyhorse, the notion that the justice system is stacked against men:
[L]ook at the prisons, they are FULL of MEN, not women. Are men “evil” and women not? Or do the laws target and attempt to restrict NATURAL MEN’S BEHAVIOR? How many of the HEROES in American history would avoid prison if they lived today? Davey Crockett? Thomas Jefferson? David Bowie? General Grant & General Lee? Shit, George Washington. … Laws target MEN and men’s behavior. Women want to bitch and cry about their rights and equality… LMAO! MEN are the ones locked away like animals, while women run free!
Someone might have to explain to War Machine that David Bowie is not actually a famous American HERO but a famously androgynous British musician who once recorded an album called “Heroes.” (Mr. Machine may be thinking of James Bowie, a well-known 19th century American frontiersman and slave trader, and the guy the Bowie Knife is named after.)
But other than that, he seems ready to go.
There is, of course, that whole attempted murder charge to deal with.
It’s true the Men’s Rights Movement has had few problems in the past rallying behind men with histories of violence. But War Machine might be a harder sell as a Men’s Rights hero. His alleged attack on Mack left her with a cracked rib, a ruptured liver, numerous broken bones, missing teeth and her eyes swollen shut. (See here for photos of her injuries; obviously this link is NSFW and could be triggering.)
While Mr. Machine denies attacking Mack, he joked to a TV host last year that if she were to leave him “I would just kill her” and get a tattoo saying “Rest In Peace” above the tattoo of her name he has on his neck.
And several hours after allegedly trying to murder her, War Machine tweeted this lovely message about his ex:
https://twitter.com/WarMachine170/statuses/497663075831787521
War Machine does seem to be at a low point in his life. Even aside from the charges he faces, and the time he seems likely to serve, his career in porn is almost certainly over. The “Alpha Male” clothing line he helped start wants nothing to do with him. Nobody but the prison system seems to want this guy.
In other words: Men’s Rights activists, this is your chance! War Machine may not be the, er, hero you want. But he’s certainly the hero you deserve.
“(Soon to be) dear little neotenous amphibian” — I’m on break between hoods, the axolotl mesh cover is all cut and patched with mesh with a gap just big enough for the various airline tubes and such. Next up…*drum roll* I GOT AN LED LIGHT FOR THE BIG TANK!! That hood has driven me up a wall daily for over a year now, it just refuses to simply turn on, flickers, dies, flickers, dies, repeat, seem to stay on, die…etc. tried replacing the ballast (the bulb was replaced when I moved back here) — no luck, but a hood that size was just as expensive as switching to glass and LEDs…NO MORE TANK BULB DRAMA!
Yes, I am this excited over LEDs. Yes, I am avoiding the topic at hand by talking about aquatic critters. No, I have no intention of ever changing my ways, I am, after all, part fish.
Puddlegum — good point! And me? I got “it’s a keeper!” when I was born, always been part fish 🙂
QI, then back to fish work for me!
Argenti, I’m perfectly happy that you are part fish. I’m very excited for your axolotl, though.
Little salamanders are adorable.
Oh sweet fuck what the hell is going on?!? I’ve been looking forward to coming back for so long and I get here to find that half the people whose voices I was missing so much are leaving? I just tuned in and ended up on this thread and I’ve been sobbing as I read things spiraling down. I have no words, except to say that I will feel bereft not to hear from the people who are leaving, and I hope to manage a connection to those of you who are leaving because thinking of you, I’m trying not to be dramatic, but I mean this in all perfect honesty, keeping your voices in my head, some of your turns of phrase and jokes and perspectives, it’s kept me going at a time when each moment feels almost unbearable.
I once read what was actually a pretty compelling defense of political lesbianism – until she got to the point where, while addressing the question of “what if I’m not attracted to women?”, she basically said that the idea of women desiring sex was a patriarchal lie. She did it in the second person, too, because telling your readers what they do and don’t experience is sure to win them over.
Yes, thank you. I know Cathy Brennan is living in a land of paranoid fantasy, and I don’t think a 7-person conference was worth turning into an international meme. But I also don’t think referring to people’s (cotton) underwear as a “barrier” to “overcome” was a good choice or words on the part of the organizers.
And the fear of that label is exactly why a lot of people felt they couldn’t object.
I don’t think anyone here has ever supported the notion of pressuring women to examine their preferences. At this point we’re discussing the broader conversation as we’ve seen it play out elsewhere.
School started for the daughter, and then I had a week of nocturnal crises that left me a hausfrau zombie, so I wasn’t keeping up with most of the threads. I spent snatches of the day reading this one, and I just now finished.
Damn.
I’ve typed and erased about five or six different comments, and I just can’t find the words for what I want to say. I’m so, so sorry to see everyone going, be it short-term or for good. I think WHTM will be a lot poorer for losing you. I’ve only been actively commenting for a few months, but I was a long-time lurker and I’ve greatly enjoyed what everyone has brought to the table.
This has just wiped me out. I think I’m going to do as Puddleglum and keep quiet for a bit until I’ve stopped reeling.
Contrapangloss — me too! I’m debating if I want to get it tomorrow, or what. I mean, the tank is set up, but it hit nearly 90 today I think I maybe better test my cooling system before I risk it. I’m thrilled though, and I already have frozen fish food sized fish for it, and most of the recommended pellets are also loach food, and already in stock at Argenti Aquarium anyways 🙂 (lol, this is, if you count the snails and brine shrimp, tank number 6…and R keeps trying to talk me into a reef tank, to which I say — you pay for it, and set it up at your house, and I will happily maintain it…but I’m not dumping that kind of money into a tank here when I have a few species tanks in mind and No More Room)
Cooling system test. Your adorable little buddy should be able to be at the right temp.
You have no idea how excited I am about your salamander. Totally living vicariously through you lot talking about pets. I can’t have pets of my own ’til I have a stable non-fire department home, and I won’t get to go home and visit mine (aka my parents pups) until December.
Your salamander will be so adorable! And the tank sounds like he or she or xie will be a happy, very happy little amphibian when they get settled in.
🙂
I’ve been kind of in and out a lot and haven’t read all the comments on all the threads. I was very confused by what happened on this one mostly because I missed the discussion in the original thread. I agree with Alex. People can’t help who they’re attracted to and no one has the right to tell anyone they ‘ought’ to be attracted to anyone else because reasons.
I haven’t been here very long, but I really love the comments and posts on this blog. I hope (for selfish reasons) most of you don’t go or don’t go for long. I don’t think I know anyone well enough to email, but I enjoy your perspectives and snark (hellkell and Cassandrakitty are especially adept at this). I appreciate Kitteh and her thoughtfulness. Marinerachel has some excellent comments as well. I’ve enjoyed many of Ally’s posts too. I don’t have much else to add. It is totally up to you if you stay or go and you certainly have that right, especially if you feel unwelcome or unwanted. For what it’s worth, I consider your presence to be an asset to the community. I wish I could make you feel welcome and valued.
Much appreciated, Argenti. I did manage to get my computer out when I left, so my copies are safe. Not that I need them anymore. He was prosecuted for DV assault and there’s a criminal no contact order. If he comes near me, just that is enough for him to go back to jail. Feel free to delete. As soon as I fix my computer, I’ll be doing the same.
“Cis queer women not wanting to fuck trans women is transmisogynistic.”
Bearing in mind that was never what Ally actually said.
So, as a trans lesbian, I think I know where that idea is coming from. I’ve seen it too, and I cringe a little, because I think “well, no, we’re all entitled to sexual autonomy.” So I want to offer what seems to make sense from my perspective, bearing in mind that not all of this will interact with every trans person the same way:
1) We have significantly reduced dating pools, regardless of who we’re attracted to.
2) We’re much more likely to come with crippling body image issues and the depression that is co-morbid to them, which is First Date Repellent if I’ve ever seen it.
3) Lesbians are defined by same-sex attraction, and…
4) We hate our own genitals, so being rejected on those grounds “twists the knife,” so to speak. It reminds us, or me at least, of my self-hate, and makes me feel like my lesbianism is being withheld or revoked–even though I’m logically aware that there are no bouncers blocking access to the lesbian club, regardless of what Brennan or Dworkin believe, and a cis lesbian wouldn’t stop being a lesbian just because she can’t get laid. And I suspect a similar mode of thinking is what motivates the angry dudebros who aren’t getting laid either–their sexuality is a component of their self-esteem that is going unvalidated.
That’s not to say the feelings are constructive, or ethically sound. It’s certainly not the responsibility of anyone to validate anyone else through sexual acts. But the frustration of being put down for that fucking flap of skin, that gross mistake of nature you had no control over, time and time again, constantly being reminded that it’s there every time you’re misgendered, or socially snubbed as a lesbian, or lose your job and your security nets ’cause your boss is “weirded out,” or find out your close friends are transphobic and end up losing them, and top it off by skinning yourself shaving because you’re trying to dig out the gristle on your chin–it builds up a lot of frustration. And if we can pin it on one thing, well, that just tickles our evolutionary baggage back when antagonizing another tribe meant survival.
If transmisogyny didn’t exist, would I have a larger dating pool? Probably. But it does exist, as does misogyny, racism, ableism, etc. And we are all combined products of biology and upbringing… to say that a prevalent component of our culture has not coloured our perception of people is to severely underestimate what the human brain is capable of absorbing. But the precise mechanics of that are not well understood, and until they are, blanket statements like the above are neither useful nor accurate. The truth is probably closer to “some people who can enjoy/tolerate gender variance are probably swung away from it by a culture that stigmatizes gender variance” but that’s a lot more syllables and can’t fit on a slogan sign. It’s not true for all lesbians, but I think the concession the transfolk are gunning for here is that it probably accounts for *a few* cases, occurring at currently unknown frequencies, and they’re especially painful for people whose egos have been obliterated forwards and backwards.
Such a concession is NOT a demand for you to fuck us, but rather an attempt to mitigate the damage done to lesbian solidarity (imaginary, self-fulfilling, or otherwise) by the god damn penises we happen to have. Capiche?
I hope that makes sense. I’m going to bed.
I see it every day on Tumblr. Every day.
Argenti, you must get the axolotl post-haste because you said you would give me one of the babies.
@ mildlymagnificent
Yeah, you’re right, it should be as simple “no is a complete sentence”, but the problem is that this specific kind of “no but! have you considered a and b and also by the way you’re kind of a horrible person if you have this preference that you have, not that I’m saying that you can’t have that preference, but…” has been going on within queer circles for quite some time, and it seems to be escalating rather than people backing off and just letting everyone have whatever preferences they have. I’m concerned because the people worst impacted so far are young lesbians, who can be seen all over sites like Tumblr asking questions like “OK, so I’ve examined and all that, and I’m still just not sexually attracted to women who have penises, is that OK?” and the response they’re getting is mostly “LOL that makes you a transmisogynist, you’re gross, don’t talk to me”. Which, hey, people can feel however they want about other people’s preferences, but can we seriously not see how cruel and manipulative a thing that is to do to young women? I’ve seen rape victims told that PTSD from rape trauma isn’t a valid reason for not wanting to sleep with people with penises. This is really, really not OK.
And no, I’m not and never was saying that Ally was a rapist ffs. What I’m saying is that, in addition to all the above, framing this issue this way gives the actual predators (who exist within every community and every demographic) social license to operate. And that, also, is not OK.
Also, on the issue of why this argument is never aimed at straight men, yes, definitely fear may be part of that, because the risk of a physically violent response is higher. However, notice how in the other thread there were lots of people arguing against the points I and others have been making here and insisting again and again that, well, preferences are partially shaped by society, so why not examine? You really should. On and on in an endless loop of social pressure which is partly based on the assumption that women’s sexuality is more fluid than men’s, which is a. misogynistic as hell and b. a crock of shit.
And then Shadow came in and stated that he isn’t interested in having sex with anyone with a penis either, no matter how pretty he might otherwise think they are, and what happened? Nobody tried the “yeah but socialization and you should examine if you’re a good person” argument on him. Did anyone think Shadow was going to lash out physically? No, that’s ridiculous, we know him better than that. But men get to just have whatever sexual preferences they have without this constant picking and social pressure to mold their sexuality around other people’s needs and attempt to chip away at their boundaries.
And that, folks, is misogyny in action. Not Shadow, he did nothing wrong, the responses he got versus the responses the women saying the same things got. That’s why I was, and am, angry about how all this is playing out here.
Okay, by now I’ve written and deleted so much text trying to figure out exactly why I am so distressed by all of this that I may have written more than I did for my master’s thesis. I confess that I am more than a little shocked at how quickly everything escalated, but more than that I am stunned? horrified? nauseated? at how much anger, suspicion and bile got flung around so quickly, particularly as it seemed to be flung at people with a long history of demonstrated good will.
I know that some folks maybe want to leave this behind and move on as quickly as possible, but I just can’t. Maybe I’m in the wrong, it wouldn’t be the first time. Maybe my comments are unhelpful and out of place, again, it wouldn’t be the first time, and if so, David or kittehs or emilygoddess can feel free to purge the entire herd of teal deer, but here goes…
I’ve read through this thread a couple of times now, and I can’t tell whether adding something would be a good idea or no. I have strong feelings, but I’ve also been away for quite a bit and even before then I wasn’t exactly a regular, so I’m just not sure that anything I say could be of value, but I guess I need to say this and see what happens to see if I feel comfortable with where things are.
I will say, just in case she is out there reading, that I admire and value and wish the best for Ally, and that she will always be in my thoughts. I have deeply valued her perspective, and (especially as someone who enjoys engaging with theory) her close reading on many issues.
Let me be clear on the overt points that I’m on board with not using ‘scrotosphere’ because I get the anti argument and while I personally agree with the ‘vulvosphere’ framing (argh, whose was that? mai branez, they iz borked), I certainly won’t put my feelings ahead of someone who feels denigrated by that use. And I’m also perfectly willing to sotto voce my “not all men” response to “men are fucking terrifying” up there, precisely because I know that yes, all transfolk have legitimate fear based on real clear and present dangers. On both of those points, I would have been called to examine what I was doing and thinking, and find myself in agreement with her, and I would have changed my behavior. This opportunity is one of the reasons I have so deeply valued this community.
However (and I wish I had been here to say this in the moment, though I can’t imagine it would have helped, and even now I am unsure whether there is any value to posting now) I have the strong sense that none of this was really about those points, at least not completely.
I am profoundly uncomfortable with the way Ally framed the pushback against some of her statements and especially the way she insisted that intent doesn’t matter, while at the same time also repeatedly focusing on imputing extremely negative (ie transmisogynist) motives to those who disagreed with her.
Yes, cloudiah, she did state that no one should be coerced via shame. However, she also went from
which I read as pretty uncontroversial here, even when you swap in ‘transphobic’, to
and kept returning to the assertion of bias as a response to pushback for basically everything else she said.
To the best of my recollection, everyone has faced pushback at one time or another, even David, who (one would tend to think) could have a legitimate claim to being the final arbiter of what is published under his URL. The reflexive “you’re all just man-hating b*tchez” isn’t acceptable as a response to that pushback, so why is a reflexive accusation of transmisogyny (especially on the part of long time commenters with a demonstrated history of good interaction and support) and the threat of being classified as a TERF? How is this not a silencing tactic?
When I see something like
I find it hard to read that as anything other than an inability to countenance dissent, no matter how honest and genuine its basis. Yes, I do agree that Ally speaks from an experience that few of us here completely inhabit, but I am extremely uncomfortable with the framing of dissent as a lack of insight or understanding, a lack of patience with dissident opinions, or a reflexive (‘automatic’) disagreement, especially on the part of folks who have carefully articulated and supported reasonings behind their disagreement and who have also repeatedly and fulsomely demonstrated that they are good allies.
Because this sounds right and good
but it comes immediately after this
which certainly does sound like “you don’t have to agree with me, but you’d better not disagree because I will always know better (even when I don’t).” We all speak from the bubble of our perspective and we all think that we are 1. completely clear in all of our statements and 2. pretty much always not only correct but justified and virtuous in our correctness. What Ally was calling for, repeatedly if sometimes partially subtextually, was not that disagreement be phrased less accusatively or more constructively (both of which would have made sense, as it could easily have felt like a dogpile from the perspective of being on the bottom), but that hers be respected as the only possible acceptable perspective.
Because as nauseated as I am by the whole “cotton ceiling” debate as framed by the TERFs
well, it rankles. Because “I’m not saying your lack of sexual attraction *IS* bigoted, I’m just saying that it could be” isn’t any better really, it’s still an attempt to police the correctness of other’s (primarily other women’s) sexuality. And because the presence of transmisogynistic bias in attraction (or the lack thereof) was insisted on again and again and again and again in this thread, and it isn’t just a straw man assertion when people are very much using the assertion of subconscious bias and bigotry as a means of coercion (sometimes, as cassandrakitty pointed out, for purely sexual reasons and in other cases simply to silence disagreement).
And, furthermore, a queer woman should know that using the word ‘preferences’ for attraction, as for identity, is highly problematic. Sexual attraction is not like taste; it is not a marker of educated sensibility or a learned recognition and appreciation of what is socially valued. It’s not like choosing Mozart over Debussy or Gainsborough over Duchamp, Goya or Breton. It’s imprecise and can be messy and disruptive and impolitic and yes, socially inflected.
But, ultimately, this is not just about an academic notation of the possibility that underlying social forces can influence attraction, and I’m not convinced, per coffee, that a negotiation and concession of some amount of transmisogyny at play in the complex constellation of forces at work in sexual attraction would suffice or indeed do anything but produce further fracture and wounding, especially as lesbians (and those of us who are bi) already experience an enormous amount of pressure to ‘correct’ the scope of our attraction. Such pressure can only be perceived as deeply, achingly personal, and no amount of bracketing can wave away the attack embedded within. And despite all of Ally’s assertions that her comments were solely about the notion, theoretical possibility, of transmisogynistic bias, there is no eliding the fact that she was also, at the very same time, personalizing all dissent and invalidating it based purely on her authority as a transwoman.
TL;DR, maybe I’m wrong and what I need to do is just sit here in my wrongness and be wrong and get used to it. Again, it wouldn’t be the first time.
I don’t think Ally, or anyone here, said any other person should be coerced or shamed into being interested in having sex with someone they aren’t interested in having sex with, or doing anything they don’t want to do sexually. In fact, people were pretty clear that that wasn’t what they were arguing. Yet somehow it keeps coming up.
I know people on one side feel like they are unfairly being accused of being transphobic/transmisogynistic; can you not see that people on the other side are being unfairly accused of being coercive/rapey, even though they’re not talking about individual choices but societal bias, and its effects?
Maybe it’s just not possible to have this conversation. I continue to think that if we can be both kind and fair, the discussion is possible, but I no longer believe it’s possible to have here. 🙁
I’m going to sleep.
@gillyrosebee
I agree and wrote something in support of what you wrote but after cloudiah’s comment, maybe I’d better shut up. I saved it just in case.
I feel like there’s an elephant in the room. People are beginning to poke at the underlying issues a bit but it’s not safe enough to address in a straightforward manner in case Ally is reading.
@cloudiah
It goes way beyond the point you mentioned.
Cloudiah, even if we assume good intentions, the idea is still coercive and not OK.
@ Aunt Alias
Ugh, this is exactly what’s making me want to bail. You have something to say, there are other people who want to read it, but nope, apparently that’s not allowed.
So there was some integral concept that I was missing, and the entire conversation was about something other than what I was actually reading.
Thank you, world. That helps clear it all up and make me much, much less terribly confused at it all.
Anyhow, I’m with @gillyrosebee. That’s essentially what I didn’t say, but wanted to. Good thing no one can see all the really snarky stuff I decided to just delete, written under the influence of painkillers and sleep deprivation.
Also, apparently I have more feels. Can I just say how incredibly frustrating it is to see straight women telling queer women that we should be centering this discussion on whether or not Ally screwed up (irrelevant to at least part of the conversation, since Ally did not come up with the idea that started this mess, that idea is being promoted all over the place), when at least some of us are attempting to have a conversation about the actual idea?
@ Fibi
You can always just email the snark directly to me, I’m certainly frustrated enough to fully appreciate it.
@cassandra: emailing David and the mods (that still sounds like a 60s rock band name to me) to get my email address passed to you.
There is a particular angle I would like to get educated on. I typed stuff here that I have deleted as I don’t want to trigger anyone (and it would possibly trigger people not yet triggered in this thread /sigh).
@cassandrakitty
Here’s a portion of what I wrote.
Now I’m not the brightest bulb when it comes to trans issues but having read Cassandrakitty’s comments multiple times, I see no insinuation that Ally is comparable to a rapist or a rape apologist. I believe her point was about the potentially coercive effect of Ally’s statements, even though that wasn’t Ally’s intent.
Of everything that went down, those last two quotes were the most objectionable, from my perspective.
I’m actually much more concerned about the fact that people don’t feel like they can talk about stuff than about Ally yelling at me. If she wants to yell at me, fine, whatever, it’s the fact that people are creeping around going “shit, can I even mention this thing that’s been bothering me?” that’s the real problem, imo.
(Though thank you for seeing past my Maleficant costume.)
It’s a great costume. That’s got to count for something.