If the Men’s Rights movement is looking for a celebrity endorser, I think I’ve found just the guy for them: the mixed martial arts fighter, and erstwhile porn actor, War Machine, currently sitting in jail on charges of brutally beating and attempting to kill his ex-girlfriend, porn star Christy Mack.
Men’s Rights activists should be able to look past these criminal charges; after all, as they remind us all the time, women are forever falsely accusing innocent men of all sorts of terrible things.
And in so many ways War Machine is perfect for them. An MMA fighter, he’s already only one letter away from being an MRA. A misogynistic asshole with rage issues, he’ll have no trouble fitting in with the Men’s Rights crowd. And, especialy important for a movement that has a lot of trouble getting any good PR, he’s a bit more comfortable on camera than the Paul Elams and Dean Esmays of the world, with experience on television (on the reality show The Ultimate Fighter: Team Hughes vs. Team Serra), and in seven films (albeit pornographic ones).
Best of all: he’ll need no ideological education from what A Voice for Men likes to call Fuck Shit Up University. War Machine – real name Jonathan Koppenhaver – is already an outspoken proponent of many of the Men’s Rights Movement’s core beliefs.
Consider these selections from a little Men’s Rights manifesto War Machine wrote a few years ago during a previous stint behind bars, serving time for felony assault after two bloody bar fights. His rant, which a friend posted to the internet, would fit right in with the sort of stuff we’ve seen regularly posted on the Men’s Rights subreddit, or The Spearhead, or A Voice for Men. I’ve bolded some of the Men’s Rightsiest bits:
The oppression of MEN is worse than oppression of Jews in Nazi germany, worse than the slavery of Blacks in early America…
There has always been the oppressor and always the oppressed. Before, it was blatant … NOW the oppressor has learned to disguise his evil. You can see man, but you can not see MEN. How easy it is to oppress a minority that is invisible to the eye! How genius of the oppressor! And what a better target too! …
Men challenge injustice from Government, MEN fight for their Constitutional rights, that are slowly being taken away every year. …
And they don’t just oppress us by making more laws and taking away more freedom, they are far more clever than that! Ask yourself what your REAL dream was?? If you gave up on this dream, why? Because of the brainwashing of the Government, that’s why! They taught you to “play it safe.” They told us a responsible man has ONE wife, a house, good credit, good job, and kids. How are you supposed to chase your dreams while maintaining all of that!?
Men are supposed to take risks and be aggressive! What accomplishments have ever come of a man scared to risk it all!? None!? Where would the world be? Still ‘flat!’ Still ‘Earth at the center of the universe!’
If any of you have your Men’s Rights Bingo cards out, I’m guessing you might already be close to scoring a bingo. We’ve got a comparison to slavery that could have come straight from the pages of A Voice for Men, a marriage-is-death-to-male-dreams rant that could have been borrowed from any MGTOW forum, and an evo-psych-esque argument that men are the true risk-takers and the world’s real innovators.
And I don’t think War Machine would have much trouble with Paul Elam’s “Bash a Violent Bitch Month,” either.
[I]t’s Christmas day and I’m laying in my bunk wondering “Why in the hell do American men get married!?” … If your wife is being a bitch you can’t slap her, if your wife is yelling at you, God forbid you yell back … Next thing you know it will be illegal to fuck your wife! LMAO! Maybe then, MEN in this country will get the fucking hint and MOVE! This country forces you to be a bitch!
In another online posting, War Machine touched on another Men’s Rights hobbyhorse, the notion that the justice system is stacked against men:
[L]ook at the prisons, they are FULL of MEN, not women. Are men “evil” and women not? Or do the laws target and attempt to restrict NATURAL MEN’S BEHAVIOR? How many of the HEROES in American history would avoid prison if they lived today? Davey Crockett? Thomas Jefferson? David Bowie? General Grant & General Lee? Shit, George Washington. … Laws target MEN and men’s behavior. Women want to bitch and cry about their rights and equality… LMAO! MEN are the ones locked away like animals, while women run free!
Someone might have to explain to War Machine that David Bowie is not actually a famous American HERO but a famously androgynous British musician who once recorded an album called “Heroes.” (Mr. Machine may be thinking of James Bowie, a well-known 19th century American frontiersman and slave trader, and the guy the Bowie Knife is named after.)
But other than that, he seems ready to go.
There is, of course, that whole attempted murder charge to deal with.
It’s true the Men’s Rights Movement has had few problems in the past rallying behind men with histories of violence. But War Machine might be a harder sell as a Men’s Rights hero. His alleged attack on Mack left her with a cracked rib, a ruptured liver, numerous broken bones, missing teeth and her eyes swollen shut. (See here for photos of her injuries; obviously this link is NSFW and could be triggering.)
While Mr. Machine denies attacking Mack, he joked to a TV host last year that if she were to leave him “I would just kill her” and get a tattoo saying “Rest In Peace” above the tattoo of her name he has on his neck.
And several hours after allegedly trying to murder her, War Machine tweeted this lovely message about his ex:
https://twitter.com/WarMachine170/statuses/497663075831787521
War Machine does seem to be at a low point in his life. Even aside from the charges he faces, and the time he seems likely to serve, his career in porn is almost certainly over. The “Alpha Male” clothing line he helped start wants nothing to do with him. Nobody but the prison system seems to want this guy.
In other words: Men’s Rights activists, this is your chance! War Machine may not be the, er, hero you want. But he’s certainly the hero you deserve.
Idk, they also both have a habit of just disappearing for awhile. Gods know I’ve done it enough myself too. But you might be right on that. Too bad, they’re awesome.
As for whether this conversation’s ever aimed at people besides cis women, not that I’ve seen either. For that matter, I’ve never seen us non-binaries on any side of it, besides various levels of frustration at the whole thing. Not aiming it at straight cis men does make a certain sense though, to a degree Ally was right — men can be terrifying, because they can be dangerous, particularly to trans women. So, compared to cis lesbians, they’re a far more dangerous group to try to question (about anything really, I’d come out of most of my various closets to a cis lesbian faster than to a straight man, the others, equal risk, in no case do I see her as more dangerous, so this could just be risk assessment)
Daintydougal — round up of cute? Hell yes! I don’t wanna miss Falconer’s twinsies! Stuff like this…idk how you’d even do it, besides to simply link to it as a sort of “if you regularly read the comments, you may want to see what happened here”.
Yeah, it was the interventions thread that made them leave. While I miss them, a LOT, I can’t agree with what they were saying and doing to other commenters in that thread.
Marie, Fade, if you yet lurk… I still love you both. I would be overjoyed to see your gravitars again.
I think you’ve nailed it here. Of course, straight men shouldn’t have to go outside of their sexual preferences either, but they’re never asked to. The sexual preferences of straight me are not only automatically accepted but catered to by every aspect of our society and media. Women are expected to give someone a chance if that person is nice enough or deserving enough. It’s definitely not a dynamic that should come up in social justice/progressive communities. I don’t think Ally was making that problematic argument in this thread but I do remember her arguments edging uncomfortably close to that in the other thread. I guess until this thread I didn’t realize there was still simmering resentments though.
Yes and this might be mean to say, but I think it’s for the best. In that thread they were implying (or maybe even outright saying. I don’t remember) that Robert was a bad parent for getting his son help. That really made me angry.
The thing is, I keep thinking, I’m not going to read the comments anymore, because I don’t want to get caught up in drama, but then I always do, cos there’s so often great stuff. But then something like this thread happens, where I was ‘involved’ at the beginning, but it turns out this thread has basically already happened but nothing was resolved. If you only looked at the threads sporadically you’d be like, where’s hellkell, and cassandra and ally and kittehs etc. I dunno. Even people that lurk will miss them.
I just wish people would call a spade a fucking spade. (I also wish racists hadn’t hijacked that saying)
WWTH, they were outright saying what he was doing was bad, and strongly implying he was an awful parent. While I know it was pain talking, that was way beyond the pale.
Cassandra, I never thanked you and Kittehs for what you did in that thread. It had to be called out there, and it was going to be ugly no matter how it happened.
So, if you lurk… Thanks for that.
I’m withdrawing from this thread permanently because I’m having some serious conflicting feelings here. I don’t think anyone here is evil and I’m sorry for all the pain you all have endured. I’m sorry for contributing to it, because I’m sure I did. I’m sorry I made any of you feel pain. I hope nothing but good things follow the people who leave this site. I hope this community can continue to flourish, even though it will never be the same again.
One last video.
The last comment I left on this thread was reactive, and after some thought, I regret it. The idea that I would be encouraging sexual coercion, particularly of girls and young women, is appalling to me, but that doesn’t mean it can’t be true.
I want to take seriously the fact that my beliefs would make people feel unsafe, particularly people I deeply like and feel connected to — Cassandra, if you’re reading, I don’t know if I have ever told you how instrumental your example has been as I have learned to love and respect myself as a bisexual woman.
Critically looking at myself and what I like has been a really positive experience for me. I can see how some of my sexual interests have been shaped by shame that I am a woman who has sexual urges and who enjoys sex. It has allowed me to recognize that I am uncomfortable with certain acts because I’ve formed a sense of them as obligations, not mutually-pleasurable activities that I am free to stop at any time. I still don’t engage in those acts (except for very rarely, when I am sure I want to), but exploring that has helped me articulate that women are not obligated to do certain things.
But that is a private process that I’ve entered into on my own, and at a time when I am not looking for a partner. I don’t know if I fully considered how these sorts of thoughts could be used to manipulate or coerce single or polyamorous people.
i haven’t been commenting here much lately, and I’ve been half a day behind in this thread since it got contentious, so I’m just now caught up. I’m so sad about how this happened, but I don’t really feel good about commenting here anymore either. I’ll be emailing two or three of you this evening when I get a chance.
This thread looks like it died out yesterday, but I have a few points that I feel need to be made and just haven’t been in the right headspace to do it, for various reasons.
The original topic of the post is extremely triggering to me. Argenti may still have the pics that I sent zir for safekeeping and Pecunium and LBT may have seen them too. A year ago, I had an extremely dangerous, extremely abusive ex that could have easily put me in the same position as Christy Mack. I had no viable way to get out, except to rely on certain people who have shown themselves to be highly unreliable in the past.
I am out of the situation, have dealt with the unreliable people and have a relatively safe situation now. However, hearing about this messes me up, triggers me to no end and, quite often, I have to step out of the discussion or risk lashing out. Even though its been 6 months since I’ve seen my ex, the pain can be very acute when I’m triggered. I didn’t post or even lurk here for a while because of it.
Perhaps it’s the same with some other posters here. However, even when triggered, it’s important to know when to step out of the conversation, rather than to insist that everyone dons the kid gloves. While I hope that we all wish to be inclusive of non troll posters and respectful of others, this is clearly not a safe space. This is also a space populated by a variety of diverse people who have their individual reasons for being here, their own pasts, trauma and triggers. If anyone is unable to allow others their opinions, formed from their own indivudual experiences, or respectfully disagree, this is not a safe space for them, just as it was not a safe space for me, while dealing with the fallout of my abuse. Maybe that sounds harsh, but I don’t know how else to say it.
I will not address the issue of sexual inclusiveness regarding trans people, as it’s been hashed out by posters who are much more in touch with the issue.
What I will say is that I genuinely value and respect everyone who posts here. This blog has helped me in so many ways and taught me so much. When I found this blog, I had no idea that a sexual spectrum was a thing, that some people don’t fit into the male or female gender binary, or even what the term queer even meant. I thought that multuple personality disorder was a disease and that everybody can only have one to be normal. The only experience I’d ever had with a trans* person was what I saw on tv.
I learned and grew so much as a person because of all of the different individuals here, who’s comments enlightened me, expanded my incredibly narrow view of life and corrected me multuple times, explaining why my comments or ideas maybe weren’t the best. Not only have I become more accepting and understanding of others, but I’ve destroyed a lot of destructive ideas about myself, explored more about who I am and how the world works outside of my tiny sphere of experience.
And, I had no idea how caring, compassionate and truly awesome peopke could be. When I was trying desperately to escape my abuser, posters here did everything they could to help and support me through it, as the shelter system was too overloaded to help.
So, to everyone, regardless of which side of whatever debate, thank you. Thank you for sharing your perspectives and lives in a not safe space and allowing others the chance to learn and grow. Thank you for being active activists who will help others in need. And thank you to David for providing the venue for all of this to happen.
Where ever we all end up going, I’m grateful that our paths have crossed.
@lindwormlady – Just to say I quite appreciated your candour in this thread. At about the same time that the E-day thread was going, I was following a discussion about how a cis gay man was calling out (in an irritating sort of Real Gay Men Would way) other cis gay men who had trans partners but wouldn’t expand beyond the usual gay repertoire.
PS: I sincerely thought that today was the 26th.
And I also apologize if my wording is a bit off. I’ve had an exhausting month and am operating on 3 hours of sleep.
This is one of the things I meant when I said cassandrakitty has always had the right of it. In the original thread, where the argument seemed to be that people who were not sexually attracted to people of other races were being racist, I’m pretty sure I was on the wrong side of that. As a mostly-ace person, I have to work to be sexually attracted to anybody, and I just Did. Not. Get cassandrakitty’s argument for the longest time.
When I did, I was pretty appalled with myself.
I am finding, in a lot of on-line social justice communities, more and more of this policing and judgement. Oh, if you don’t open yourself to being attracted to that person, you’re racist, or transphobic, or homophobic. Oh, if you wear a bindi (even at the suggestion of an Indian person), you’re being appropriative.
And I do think it’s very easy to slide from examining my own prejudices with a view to being a better human being, to expecting that everyone else ignore their own reality, regardless of how their preferences and attractions came about, in order to be more fair to others.
I also think that Ally is interacting with real-life trans people for the first time away from her abusive father. She may be going through that shiny-new-enthusastic-evangelistic phase. I do appreciate it when she points out that I’m using hurtful words unthinkingly.
However, I’m not a trans activist. Wanting to be supportive, and wanting to not be an asshole to marginalized people, does not mean I’m able or willing to take up the whole fight on behalf of marginalized people.
As we tell the trolls all the time, this site is for mocking misogyny. We’ve formed a really supportive community, but I don’t think it’s fair to co-opt the community for specific causes, even if they’re important, and even if they’re closely related to mocking misogyny.
Nova, just so you know, I do still have your photos, and I don’t think I shared them with pecunium even. And I am so so glad you’re free of your ex.
Everyone here who’s stepping off WWTH but is part of the Borg, please feel free to email me if you have anything Borg related to say, or, really, anything to say. You have my email, so don’t be strangers!
In completely random things, I hate mosquitoes. I love doing my coding outside, and R’s aunt has a lovely porch with an electrical outlet so he and I can work out there and not devolve into cleaning the living room and playing with wind up lobsters (don’t ask). But dear gods, am I a mosquito magnet! I need a trained pet bat, though I guess a small reptile would make more sense huh? (You know, like pirates have parrots? Well, parrots don’t eat mosquitoes)
Argenti:
That’s misandrous to male mosquitoes everywhere. It’s really only female mosquitoes who want to suck your blood. The males just pollinate grass and help the female mosquitoes make more tiny little mosquitoes to suck your blood and pollinate your grasses…
… okay, never mind. Looking forward to mosquitoes hibernating here in a couple months.
No-see-ums are even worse.
Hi, Argenti!
Daintydougal:
Amusingly, I once had this feeling while working with a literal spade. There were some Finns and a couple Russians talking in English, someone didn’t know the tool’s name so they used the Finnish name, and nobody else “corrected” it for politeness reasons 🙂
Hi back at you Arctic Ape!
contrapangloss — we don’t seem to get them around here, certainly not like the mosquitoes anyways, and they don’t find me as delicious as mosquitoes do anyways. The mosquitoes are bad enough that my carnivores got some live larvae when I left some seashells to soak for a few days before scrubbing them and goddamnit I got to confirm there were mosquitoes in the house! Though, Puff thought they were the best thing ever, one of the gobies even sucked one down somehow, damned things are nearly as big as the gobies are!
I got my Doctor Foster’s order today btw, so I’m hoping to set up the last of the axolotl tank once it cool down some and I can bear the thought of moving.
Ps, spend a week plus topping out at like 78, I think maybe I can get the axolotl before the fan comes in and POOF, it’s 82 in my tanks and feels more like 90 out of them. Oh well, I should have the fan set up once I can cut the metal screen without perishing at the thought of tools. (Don’t worry, I have mesh screen I’m going to patch the gap with so no little fingers can get sliced)
Wow, I go on vacation for a week, and the commentariat implodes! 🙁
Cassandrakitty, kittyserf, hellkell, LBT, & cloudiah were the people whose comments made me feel thrilled to have found this blog several years ago. I’m sad that this issue is dividing up my fav people (not all of whom I’ve mentioned here, I was just reminded of who I first read & liked). Unfortunately I’m probably one of the evil people (well, it is on my gravatar), so after this post I’m probably go back to lurking, and see who’s actually here when the dust settles. Then I’ll know if I’m welcome here too.
Argenti wrote:
I think that’s rooted in the fact that gender makes no fucking sense to us.
@Cassandrakitty,
I was trying to understand what the whole “cotton ceiling” was, but I’ve made up my mind now, and that^ is why. I can’t promise I’ll be around often enough, but when I am, I’ll happily back you up on that point.
I’m straight, myself, and I have to say one of the things that drove me away from one radfem space I was in was that one lady started going on about how female heterosexuality was actually bullshit. When I said otherwise, she told me there was nothing a man could do that a dildo couldn’t. Obviously I have straight privilege and plenty mainstream approval to back up me being attracted to men, but even still it was condescending and dismissive for her to claim my attraction didn’t exist. I mean, she was supposed to be on my side. I know it’s even worse for LBGA people to be told shit like that.
People can’t help who they’re attracted to. Attraction can change over time. Mainstream media and culture can change that causes new generations to grow up with different attractions, but you can’t put it on a group of individuals (especially a group that’s oppressed) to change their attraction just because another group (even if that group is also oppressed) is finding it hard to get sex. It’s just too reminiscent of omega/beta/incel type bullshit, even if the intent isn’t the same.
TBoggs has written about this on Raw Story with a nod to David. In the comments, TBoggs said:
First, count me in as one of those selfish people who are selfishly hoping that those who are leaving would reconsider, or at least, just make it a temporary break. But I know that people have to do what is best for themselves and take care of themselves. So, if any of you are still lurking: You will all be deeply, deeply missed.
Cassandrakitty, you in particular I’ve looked to as a mentor. You always have a way of putting things that cuts through all the bullshit and gets to the heart of the matter.
marinerachel and hellkell, I’m going to miss your snark so much. All the best to both of you.
kitteh, I hope you ultimately decide to say, because I don’t know what this place would be without you!
And Ally, if your still lurking, I’m disagreeing with some if the stuff you’ve said here, but I also still think you are incredibly smart and strong young woman and I wish you the best also.
If I’m parsing this correctly, the problem here is that there’s a world of difference between saying, “(1)Cis lesbian women who refuse to sleep with trans lesbian women are transmisogynistic” and “(2)”That some cis lesbian women won’t consider trans lesbian women as sexual partners is indicative of trans lesbian women not being seen as ‘real women’ or ‘real women,'” and “(3)Trans people are seen as gross unfuckable freaks and misgendered by the culture in which we live, and this is wrong and should be fought against.” The first statement is pure ooginess, because, no, people get to decide who they will or will not sleep with, and their reasons for not sleeping with someone should never be up for debate. Ever. Even if we don’t like the reasons why and we even if the reason why comes from prejudice. We live in a rape culture in which women are not seen as sexual agents and their “no’s” are not respected. I see respecting women’s “no’s” and their sexual agency as a central tenant if feminism that should be up for debate. The third sentence up there is true. It is speaking to a wider societal problem and how society views trans people rather than focusing on certain people’s or a certain groups sexual preferences. The second sentence is where it seems to me the current conflict is being sparked by. Because, yes, it is a wrong thing for lesbian trans women not to be seen as “real women” or “real lesbians.” But it is also a wrong thing, a very wrong thing, to lay that at the feet if cis lesbian women and expect them to examine their sexual preferences. And I think that’s the reason why people are objecting to this.
So now I’m rambling, but I’m glad this discussion happened/is happening, because I personally think letting stuff like this fester is a bad idea and just ends up blowing up later.
Argenti, whenever you mention your dear little neotenous amphibians, I remember the parody poem from MAD magazine, “I wandered lonely as a clod”. I can’t link, but search for mad axolotl poem and it should come up.
Also, I am among the selfish people who wish we were all getting along like peasants at a wedding* My sincere hopes for everyone involved to reach their highest good, especially if it involves continuing to feel comfortable here. I will continue to read and post myself, as long as I don’t make anyone uncomfortable by doing so.
*Not intended as classist, I’ve just always liked that expression.
So I’ve managed to calm down completely and I have to agree that this conversation was going into a sex critical area. That does bother me. To be frank the name ‘cotton ceiling’ does bother me, and for the women who ran the work shop that was shitty terminology on their part. This topic was distressing for a lot of people. For me it was distressing because I was afraid TERF ideas were invading this community, but on closer inspection there are legitimate criticisms of that work shop. It was hard to see that through my own distress and anger. It’s one thing to have a conversation about how transmisogyny affects beauty ideals and one thing to discuss how queer trans women can navigate their own relationships. It’s quite another to suggest that a cis queer woman is transmisogynist for not having sexual relationships with a trans woman or not consenting to certain sexual acts. That’s not right. I also understand that it’s as common as sunlight hitting my skin for queer women to have their sexuality policed. That’s part of why I reacted so strongly, because I’ve been policed.
However, it was callous of me to put my own personal feelings above those of other queer women. I’m pretty sure that’s how I came off. I know I said earlier that I would disengage permanently, but I need to grow the fuck up. This is my problem too, and I do feel that this discussion is valuable. I also want to apologize again for making anyone feel unsafe.
@DLG Thank you, but I feel like I fucked up in this thread. I might have seemed calm or polite, but I was honestly distressed and I’m sure that came out. I’m sure that came out and I hurt other people in the process.
In my opinion, everyone here (including Ally) agreed that the first two topics were a-okay, and that the last topic is wrong, wrong, wrong. Both here, and in the original thread where this was discussed.(If you read through to the end, you’ll see that Ally realized she was stating things poorly, and in ways that didn’t reflect her actual position, so she apologized and clarified her position.)
Certainly, if I’ve said anything that implies support for a different position, I apologize for that.