Is War Machine, the mixed martial arts fighter accused of brutally beating his ex, a Men's Rights Activist?

I guess it’s a misunderstanding, but I’m not sure how it came about. I’m a cis lesbian and I did not read any of these comments in a way that suggested I was obligated to have sex with trans women. I don’t even right now.

So, this is what Ally actually said:

I thought I made myself clear that I never advocated the violation of consent and boundaries of cis lesbians. I only pointed out the importance of recognizing that attraction can be influenced by privileged subjectivity and oppressive attitudes. Y’all get angry (and rightfully so!) at PUAs who complain about being pressured by feminists to have sex with “fat women”, so why the double standard? Don’t y’all understand that there is a difference between saying that “fat people” are entitled to sex from thin people and saying that there are unfair, fatphobic biases that tend to influence people’s attraction preferences? Why not apply the same reasoning to us trans lesbians?

No one — not Ally, certainly, but no one else here either — is saying that cis lesbians have to sleep with trans women to prove they aren’t bigots. Because we’re not manipulative assholes or rapists, and that is what manipulative asshole rapists do. I’ve had straight woman friends who were manipulated by lesbians who told them that if they were really feminists, they would only have sex with women, because they wanted to sleep with them. It’s for shit sure that assholes like Hugo Fucking Schwyzer have used feminism to pressure women to be more “sex positive” so that they can make their own boners happy. Is that an indictment of feminism? Nope. It’s a recognition that manipulative asshole rapists will use anything at hand to get what they want.

This is not a community filled with manipulative assholes, and I am very comfortable staying here, sorry as I am to lose the people who are leaving over this.

Sorry also to everyone who is just confused as hell. It’s clear that this is something that has been simmering for a long time, and trying to dredge up all the context and history or even to attempt to explain it is more than I have energy to deal with right now.

That’s okay Cloudia. You don’t have to explain anything. I’m sorry that people are leaving and I’m sorry that this has caused such a shit storm. Wherever you all go, I hope nothing but good things follow you.

By the last sentence of that first paragraph, I’m referring to the previous cotton ceiling shitstorm in the E-Day concert thread.

Shit, ninja’d by something way more serious than my semantic confusion.

I’ll try to restate the most important point of that paragraph: basically, the immediate dismissal of what oppressed people say is a mark of privilege, unexamined or otherwise. And it’s wrong because oppressed people always deserve extra consideration for what they say on the issues that affect them, even if they’re wrong. It’s not about allies agreeing unconditionally with oppressed people, but rather allies approaching these dialogues as allies rather than privileged people merely making assertions in the face of oppressed people calling something out.

…

But if you are privileged, my opinions on the oppression I face should be given more consideration than a terse, close-minded hypocrisy-fueled dismissal along the lines of “I don’t agree with you.” Not even a “I don’t understand how you think that’s transphobic; can you explain?” Just outright rejection of my objections. Like some feminists have said before, allyship is a process, not a status. Being an ally requires you to be self-critical and to reject the assumption that you will inevitably reach the point of being The Greatest Ally with little to no effort.

…

I wasn’t saying that anyone was trying to control my emotions by asking me not to use a phrase. I made a mistake in understanding what kinds of things are acceptable to say on WHTM, and I apologized. I simply stuck to arguing about the hypocrisy that was related to the whole thing. Being called out wasn’t something I really had any problem with at all. That’s why I immediately desisted without any complaints about being asked to do so.

…

You’re positing a false dichotomy here. I was talking more about a hostile bias that manifested itself in grudge-like attitudes and tendencies for people to snap at me for no good reason. It doesn’t have to be as overwhelming and incessant as you make it out to be.

Lastly, things like this are why I seriously consider leaving this place. The animosity I face here from time to time is becoming too much to bear, especially these days. What has happened in this thread is merely one example of said animosity. People can tell me that I’m being childish for leaving over “just a disagreement”, but y’all know that fundamental, bitter disagreements are always inimical to communal cohesion. My views are too personal for me to just push disagreements to the side, especially when so many people here are ones I have been fond of (or at least used to be fond of). I have literally had people here who saved me from a life-threatening situation with my abusive father, and now I have to deal with so many folks here having this disproportionately antagonistic attitude towards me. Maybe I deserve it, but either way it hurts.

Or

find it highly hypocritical of some of the people here to insist that the word is benign because of the intent behind it, in spite of the history of literally every regular commenter on this blog criticizing MRA dudebros for saying the c-word while claiming that they aren’t misogynistic because they don’t intend to demean all women.
I chalk up this hypocrisy to privilege. Everyone calling me out in this thread is, as far as I can tell, white and cis. Despite claiming to be allies of trans people, it seems to me that the most important thing that informs your judgment is your own perspective. But being an ally requires you to stop privileging your own view of things. Am I right about literally everything about transmisogyny and white supremacy? Obviously not. But if you are privileged, my opinions on the oppression I face should be given more consideration than a terse, close-minded hypocrisy-fueled dismissal along the lines of “I don’t agree with you.” Not even a “I don’t understand how you think that’s transphobic; can you explain?” Just outright rejection of my objections. Like some feminists have said before, allyship is a process, not a status. Being an ally requires you to be self-critical and to reject the assumption that you will inevitably reach the point of being The Greatest Ally with little to no effort.
And this case, my opinions on that word should be given a great amount of consideration since I’ve been on the receiving end of a lot of transphobic language myself. Who has a better understanding of transphobic language: someone who has lived all her life as a trans girl or a cis woman who reads a few articles about transphobic language?
This behavior is appalling and not reflective of the tolerant, sensitive atmosphere that I thought would always be here ever since I started commenting. Clearly I was a fool. Note that this kind of shit has happened before in response to me saying that something is transphobic.
And about me venting about my fear of men: I find it strange that I have seen countless commenters, regular commenters, say “men” without any qualifier like “some” or “most” and they have never faced any criticism. Yet when I do likewise, people get upset at me. I can’t help but feel that this antipathy is rooted in some unconscious bias against trans women who express their fear of male aggression.

But this is all because of

@daintydougal
Can you please not use the word “scrotosphere”? I know you’re intending to use it in a way that highlights the male entitlement inherent in the manosphere, but it inevitably associates trans women with cis men on the basis of sharing reproductive organs.

Daintydougal:

Sorry, Ally, I’ve seen it used here a lot but not seen it been stopped. I try to be considerate but so much stuff just flies straight over my head. What you mentioned wouldn’t even have occurred to me. I will keep trying (if thats ok?)

But while we’re at it, I’m not overly comfortable with you saying ‘men are fucking terrifying’. We wouldn’t say that about any other blanket group like that.

Cassandrakitty:

Yeah, I’m not either. Knock it off.

Hellkell:

That’s not sitting well with me either. I get that in your experience, men have been terrifying and awful, and that’s valid. I don’t agree.
Also, I think you’re wrong about “scrotosphere.”

Ally:

I thought it was clear here that saying “men” doesn’t necessarily refer to all men, and I’ve seen people here use that term the same way I just did. But I apologize, and I’ll just say instead that a lot of men are terrifying.

Cassandrakitty:

So, generalization that has potential splash damage for you even though it wasn’t meant to include you = don’t do that, but generalization that has potential splash damage for other people even though it wasn’t meant to include them = totes cool?

Fibinachi:

Besides, change it to “male supremacy ideologoues are fucking terrifying” and you get the same picture perfect message across.
Anyhow, this is a prime example of why it took me so long to get back to martial arts. Superiorbros radiate a repulsor field.

Ally:

They aren’t equivalent. Generalizing about men is not oppressive because men are not oppressed, whereas using language that reinforces the notion of gendered bodies directly contributes to trans people’s oppression. That term I objected to wasn’t on based on me believing “But some women have scrotums” but rather on me believing “That language is transphobic even though that user is well-meaning.”
In any case, I made it clear that I wasn’t referring to all men. I have also said similar things about white people in the form of “White people are [insert negative trait]” but there are a lot of individual white people I like, many of whom are among the commenters here.

Cassandrakitty:

So if it’s not oppressive you’re entitled to do if even if people tell you not to? I’m not sure why you feel that it’s OK to say things like that, but again, you are being asked to desist.

Hellkell:

Ally, you’re being a gigantic hypocrite, please stop.

Kirbywarp:

@Ally:
No, saying “men are fucking terrifying” is not oppressive, nor is it equivalent with transphobic remarks. That doesn’t mean its a good thing, or something we should be fully ok with saying.

Ally:

That’s not what I implied. I just said those two things aren’t comparable. And I said that in order to address the accusation that I’m being a hypocrite by supporting one generalization and condemning another.
Anyway, I’ll desist.

Fibinachi:

The thing is, this is not strictly speaking correct. Generalizibg about anyone is generally impolite. That’s it. It’s not about the embedded power structures aided by unconscious discourse as it relates to the public perception of virtue, power dynamics and stereotypes. It’s about not being rude.
I get a little “eeeeh” when you do the “white people are x” or “men are y” too, because it’s kind of bothersomely generally untrue. That’s it.
So… Maybe don’t.

ARE WE HAVING DIFFEREN CONVERSATIONS? AM I HALLUCINATING AGAIN? HAVE THE BEES RETURNED HOME TO ROOST FROM THE TREE OF SOUNDS?

Wait, no, that last one is irrelevant. Seriously, what the hell? I thought we just talking about words and stuff. And like impressions and things. But there were 4 replies to that original men thing, 5 if you count Kittehserf on page 3, and while I agree that maybe the wording got a little tense, I don’t see how that necessarily mandates a

And about me venting about my fear of men: I find it strange that I have seen countless commenters, regular commenters, say “men” without any qualifier like “some” or “most” and they have never faced any criticism. Yet when I do likewise, people get upset at me. I can’t help but feel that this antipathy is rooted in some unconscious bias against trans women who express their fear of male aggression.

Psychological evaluation of the basis for making the claim. I’m seriously sorry if I got flippant, and that was somehow a co-factor in that. I realize my reply was 4 minutes later than everyone else, because again, I’m viewing the world through a thin layer of soup and my head is too small for my eyes right now and everything hurts, so yeah, okay, but what? What? What?
I didn’t make a false dichotomy on purpose. Ally wrote, literally wrote that:

. The animosity I face here from time to time is becoming too much to bear, especially these days. What has happened in this thread is merely one example of said animosity. People can tell me that I’m being childish for leaving over “just a disagreement”, but y’all know that fundamental, bitter disagreements are always inimical to communal cohesion

And

This behavior is appalling and not reflective of the tolerant, sensitive atmosphere that I thought would always be here ever since I started commenting. Clearly I was a fool. Note that this kind of shit has happened before in response to me saying that something is transphobic.

which literally, again, means people are being insensitive, intolerant and full of animosity towards their every position and that this community lacks cohesion. Did I misunderstand that too? I don’t understand anything any more. We’re really having a different conversation than I assumed we were having.

Yet when I do likewise, people get upset at me. I can’t help but feel that this antipathy is rooted in some unconscious bias against trans women who express their fear of male aggression.

You’re positing a false dichotomy here. I was talking more about a hostile bias that manifested itself in grudge-like attitudes and tendencies for people to snap at me for no good reason. It doesn’t have to be as overwhelming and incessant as you make it out to be.

Eeeeeh. I didn’t make anything about to be incessant or overwhelming! I used the words Ally was using. Because that’s the words that was the… thing.. .The agaagah.

I’m just going to quote Historophilia now.

Yeah I am also going to say that I really don’t see what the issue is with Ally’s comments, and it sets my teeth on edge to see people jumping on a teenage trans girl who has been through horrendous abuse at the hands of men to police how she reacts to examples of male violence.
Women like Ally are the people that Feminism should be fighting hardest to protect and instead a group of us are telling her that she is being super mean for generalising men and telling her that “it is not about you”. Do we support trans girls or do we only support them when they are polite and palatable and nice?
We need to support them in their anger and their fear and their pain. They bear the brunt of male violence and they are 100% entitled to be scared of and angry at men because of this.
I think that people have treated her very poorly in this thread and it needs a little less policing of oppressed and abused peoples reaction to really scary things and a little more understanding that in the grand scheme of things comments like Ally’s do exactly squat to harm anyone but that toxic masculinity and male violence kills untold numbers of people.

Look at the amount of support? People clearly care. A lot. Which is great! And that’s amazing. And I don’t understand what they’re caring about, because I don’t see why that would be required here, but maybe that’s because I am one of the most well-of person on this planet, and my ability to perceive actual suffering is so blinkered as to be laughable and I just don’t have the mental facilities to actually understand.

Because this cannot be just about asking people not to use phrase that other people find uncomfortable. This can’t be it. There’s something more here. Could someone maybe take a minute to explain what that actually is? Because I’ve re-read this entire thread three times now, and I still don’t get it. I don’t understand the fuck is happening.

Hellkell and Cassandra, I’ve been very glad to know you both and to have learned from you both. I’m sorry to see you go. Cassandra, I don’t think your representation of Ally’s position (or mine) is at all accurate. Nobody is saying anybody has to have sex with anybody else. Anyone who does is scum. I wish you both well and I will miss you.

Yeah, things got really weird.
One of my dissociation triggers is arguments, so I’ve been trying to figure out what was going wrong, fix it, and get my brain out of that damn blender…

Crap, I haven’t been following this thread due to a fever and now several of the best posters are bowing out? Fucking hell.

Without breaking down all the responses to Ally, I did think someone called her a “hypocrite”, which was over the top and very insulting. I’d be really pissed too. This is a comment board and every post isn’t going to be a winner, people shouldn’t jump on someone for an appearent stumble (if it was even that).

@Cassandra

I get where you’re coming from and I appreciate you standing up for sexual autonomy (not the best phrasing but I’m a bit headspinny). I have no problem with women, trans or otherwise, discussing relationships, sexuality or even getting laid. That was pretty common stuff at the alt sex get-togethers when I young and still figuring things out.

I do have a huge problem when people tell women, especially young women, that they need to “examine” how express their sexual preferences. Their is this insidious idea that all women’s sexuality is fluid like putty and other people should feel free to see it gets molded more to their liking. Young men freak out over being forced to discuss rape, but young women nervously feel the need to ask strangers on the internet if their sexuality is “wrong”. Worse, people are telling them yup, it is wrong and they should change it, and yes, this dynamic opens the door to sexual predators.

This dynamic isn’t new, I have heard people say stupid shit about lesbians for decades. Gay men probably have as well, but I doubt it involved sexual propositions, innuendo, criticisms and weird theories about who and how I have sex. For me feminism was key in my ability to push back against the sexual coercive bullshit directed at women and that includes pompous lectures from so-called progressives telling women that they don’t understand their own sexuality and should be open to bullshit suggestions and shaming tactics. The freedom for women to have or not have the consensual sex they chose without shame is sacrosanct to me and anyone who describes other women’s sexuality as “problematic” is, at best, way out of line.

the sexual coercive bullshit directed at women and that includes pompous lectures from so-called progressives telling women that they don’t understand their own sexuality and should be open to bullshit suggestions and shaming tactics.

None of which I have ever advocated, as can be clearly seen in this very thread.

I think this was way out of line:

Thank you for comparing me to a fucking rapist.

@Ally

You haven’t advocated anything like that in any thread that I’ve seen.

I’m also aware that their are transphobic women who designate themselves the lesbian police who think they get to decide who gets to call themselves a lesbian and something you will have to deal with. (Sorry if this is only making this more depressing, all the sexual policing of young women of all persuasions enrages me to no end and it’s cropping up everywhere.)

That said there are places where this debate has gotten ugly, the worst oddly enough often coming from people who are not lesbians or trans (of any sexual orientation). It’s not a TERF false flag, it’s just a new variation of a very old phenomenon.

FYI, I’m not going to leave. I’m just going to lurk a lot more and reduce my commenting significantly.