Now that he’s taken the Red Pill, the Reddittor who calls himself F9R recently announced, he’s “started seeing women as people rather than as magical beautiful goddess creatures.” That’s a good thing, right? Seeing women as actual human beings rather than some imaginary construct?
Well, not so much. Because it turns out that women are just terrible as human beings. No, it’s true! In a rambling comment in the Red Pill subreddit with more than 100 upvotes, F9R reports his scientific findings on the ladies of the world.
Now I’m disillusioned with them because women, for the most part, are boring people. 95% of them spend more time on their appearance than anything else, so as a result they never really have interesting hobbies or develop respectable skill in any particular area. This, in my opinion, could be one of the reasons that women have historically under-performed in almost every activity/industry.
Ah, that explains it! There haven’t been any women presidents, or Popes, or Chairmen of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, because the ladies are spending way too much time fussing with their lipstick and trying to find the exact right shade of eyeshadow.
There haven’t been more women inventors, not because women were denied education for thousands of years or because STEM fields are filled with angry manbabies who cry oppression whenever a woman comes near, but because women don’t have any fascinating, mentally stimulating hobbies like the Red Pillers of the world have. You know, like weight-lifting, or “Game,” or “saying terrible things about women online.”
So you swallow the pill, look around you, and see two groups of people. The first group, men, generally have no innate value and have had to work for everything in life. This is why the loser-winner spectrum is so broad for men; don’t work at all and you’ll end up homeless, work your ass off and you could make millions. The second group, women, have considerable innate value and don’t spend nearly as much time fighting to stay respectable, because they can always fall back on their female safety net; this is why there are almost no homeless women, but it’s rare to find a female CEO.
Ah, the old “female safety net.” You know, the free reserve of rent money and bon bons that all women have access to. Or does he mean “well, if worse comes to worst, you can always become a prostitute”
Not quite as easy to understand as the concept of an oppressive patriarchy, but demonstrably more accurate.
He’s got that right: it’s definitely not as easy to understand.
Tying this in with sex drive: an RP’er will have a hard time respecting plates or women they meet at the bar, because when looking at these women as people rather than as magical, mysterious women, the man will be underwhelmed by her bland personality and/or her obnoxious attempts to seem less bland by being a loud annoying cunt.
Still, if she’s got a nice pair of tits and a round ass, you can forgive her personality and lack of emotional development.
Gosh, I am shocked that a whiny manchild who refers to women as “plates” can’t find anything interesting about them besides their sexy bits.
But then let’s say you get her in bed, and you fuck her, and you’re having a good time. As soon as you finish and are in that refractory period, you look over at the person next to you and see them differently. The tits and ass lose a bit of their appeal since you just finished, and now you see the person next to you for the immature person they really are, and it’s like you’re lying in bed with a child.
Huh. Just a thought, but if you want to date mature women you might want to start by dating, you know, mature women, instead of creepily fixating on women and girls much younger than you are?
Or maybe what’s really happening is that when you look over at the woman you just had sex with, she’s looking at you with disgust, wondering how the hell she ended up in bed with such an asshole, and you rationalize away her disdain towards you as her being “immature.”
It’s weird as fuck and you start to question your life choices. Next time you go out to the bar, you remember that moment, and decide to raise your maturity standards a little. To your dismay, no women measure up.
I hate to tell you this, but I’m pretty sure there aren’t a lot of mature women who see your bitter, immature ass as much of a prize.
That’s the Catch-22 of the Red Pill. It gives you all the women you could ever want, but you see them for what they really are.
Yeah, I’m sure that’s the problem. You’re dizzy with success.
So you’ve got two choices: work on your game and improve yourself in order to keep fucking barely-sentient organic sex toys, or go your own way and focus on your life instead because the game just isn’t worth it to you.
The grapes barely-sentient organic sex toys are definitely sour.
Men who choose the former are Red Pill alphas, and men who choose the latter are MGTOW. Blue Pillers just ignore the game and continue to get screwed over because they have no idea what they’re doing.
Keep telling yourself that.
And seriously, go your own fucking way already. Just do it. The further away, the better. If you think of women as barely sentient organic sex toys, stick with the non-organic, non-sentient variety of sex toy and leave the actual human beings alone.
Oh, and speaking of needlepoint, here’s my favorite song about crocheting. I know I’ve posted it before, but I don’t care. It’s not every day I have such a good excuse to post Julie Ruin.
It’s just one of those topics that always makes everyone angry.
When a man tells me that I’m anti-feminist if I don’t agree with him about a topic that affects women far more than it does men and implies that letting someone fuck me is no more intimate than making them a sandwich? Yeah, you’re damn right I’m going to be be angry.
Cassandra, all the YES THIS.
*Shrug* Suit yourself. I’m staying out of this.
One of the really important things is saying straight out, the idea is viscerally horrifying. The it’s-just-a-job idea skates horribly close (and no, I’m not saying this was your intent or even that you were aware of it, Shadow) to the you’re being too emotional shit. Unwanted penetration of my body, forced by desperation, is an utterly nauseating, terrifying idea, and like cassandra said, we’re not outliers for feeling this way!
So, I was not going to come back to this topic as per Kitteh’s wishes. However, seeing that my posts have created the impression to Cassandra (and perhaps others) that I believe things that I emphatically don’t, I need to clarify myself. Not because I’m feeling defensive at being misunderstood, but because I’ve been a part of this community for years, and have known a number of y’all for years and consider you friends, and I do not want my friends to think that I believe such things. Nor do I think I would be welcome in this community (rightfully so) if people thought that this is how I feel.
Firstly the antifeminist thing. My words were:
I was speaking about the stance that some feminists take, and that comes in practically any feminist discussion of sex work, which is that sex work is inherently antifeminist. I was not calling anyone antifeminist for not being pro-sex work. This is not something I would ever do, I will never try and define what is and what isn’t feminist. Again, “that selling sexual services commodifies sex and is inherently antifeminist” is the description of the stance, not an accusation of antifeminism at anyone.
Secondly
When I was taking about the beliefs of commodification, I was talking about the beliefs that some feminists have expressed that the commodification of sex in sex work will lead to sex becoming a commodified resource in relationships between men and women in society in general and in the interpersonal relationships between men and women outside of sexwork. This is why I used the restaraunt analogy, I was trying to say that just because we have made a commodity out of cooking when it comes to employment/business does not mean that the cooking that we do at home whether for ourselves or for others has lost value or has become commodified.
I emphatically DO NOT believe that women do not enter sex work just because of the stigma, and if the stigma was removed that women would be flocking to it. I emphatically DO NOT believe that every woman, or even most women, would be okay with being penetrated by strangers that they are not attracted to if sex work became safer/destigmatized. My version of safer sex work emphatically DOES NOT include women or men engaging in it out of desperation or through force. I emphatically DO believe that the minimum wage should be one such that people can afford all their basic needs for themselves and their families, and that no one should have to turn to sex work for money because they have no other option. My idea of safe sex work is one in which the people who are engaging in it do so because they enjoy the work or because they do not mind trading sexual favours for money. My idea of safe sex work is one in which those engaging in it have access to security to ensure that no client forces them into doing something that they do not agree to. My idea of safe sex work is one in which those engaging in it are free and secure to turn away any clients they do not wish to take on.
I am sorry that my posts were unclear, but I emphatically DO NOT believe that women’s sexuality is just responsive. What I do believe is that for some women, as with some men, sex work is something that they would like to do, and I believe in doing everything we can so that they may do so safely and securely, with the option to leave anytime they desire secure in the knowledge that there are other options available.
Also, if after the clarification people still think that the restaurant analogy is still offensive then I apologise for it and recant it
Thank you for the clarification, Shadow. I see the point of your restaurant analogy now; it wasn’t at all clear before.
I don’t think there are any applicable analogies to sex, so anything one comes up with is going to be problematic and likely offensive. The intimacy, or rather abuse of intimacy, involved is not like any other work.
I think there’s a hell of a lot of commodification of sex – just look at the toxic views of the MRM and mainstream misogynists – which sex work is part of, maybe a reflection of. Women as things to be bought is hardly a rare thought.
Well that’s a relief, since I’d really rather not think of friends as believing things that are the way those comments initially read to me. I’m still not thrilled with the restaurant analogy mostly because there are lots of people who really do think that sex shouldn’t be seen as any more intimate or personal than something like waiting tables (the “it’s like any other service job” argument that they were talking about in the Der Speigel article), which has resulted in attempts to get women who apply for benefits in places where sex work is legal to take jobs in the industry on the principle that, hey, just like any other service job. And I’ve been told flat-out by male feminists before that I’m not allowed to call myself a feminist unless I’m willing to do sex work, so sorry if I assumed that’s where you were going with your argument. It is unfortunately one that I’ve heard before.
I disagree with the idea that the existence of the sex industry doesn’t have an impact on the way relationships between men and women go in general though, partly because I’ve lived both in places where it’s everywhere and places where it’s almost invisible. In my experience in places where the sex industry is big and woven into people’s everyday lives it does produce a commodifiying effect on the way men relate to women, and everything I’ve ever seen about the habitual customers indicates an attitude towards women from them that’s more sexist, more hostile, and generally less respectful towards women than the general population. Whether the purchasing of sex is the chicken or the egg in that scenario is less clear, but my guess would be that it’s a bit of both, and I really don’t believe that the knowledge that prostitution exists doesn’t have an impact on the way that men are conditioned to see women as a whole. I have a friend who lives in Hamburg, and she’s has all kinds of things to say about the way in which the deeply embedded sex industry there impacts the way she as a woman is treated by the men around her.
Fuck, I remember that.
To put it more simply – every place I’ve ever lived where the sex industry was a saturated thing that you can’t get away from if you walk down the street I’ve felt an attitude from men that’s more sexually aggressive, more inclined to assume that any given woman they see will have sex with them if they offer her money, quicker to anger when women won’t go along with that assumption, a higher prevalence of relationships that are sort of quasi-prostitution of the sort you see with a lot of sex tourists who eventually settle in the place they originally visited as a sex tourist, an assumption that men will pay for sex even when married and there’s not a damn thing their wives can do about it, sexual coercion of wives and girlfriends based on the threat of just hiring a sex worker if the wife/girlfriend won’t do what the man wants in bed, and so on. So to say that there’s no connection between the existence of the industry and commodification of sexual relationships in general just doesn’t ring true to me.
One thing I haven’t seen in this comment section is an actual sex worker. I work as a full service provider in a brothel, in Australia (where it is legalized). Do you know how I view my job? As a JOB. I was not ‘desperate’ or in any way coerced, I felt like I needed a job change, and you know what – this job gets paid more, with great hours, flexibility and I can do the work (and cope with the work), so I started looking into the best places then went in for an interview. No trafficking, no pimps – seriously guys? – just a job that happens to involve sex.
By the way, I’m asexual. Sex does not interest me at all, and I am not attracted to my clients in that way. It’s not a big deal for me. Some people it would be, I understand. These people should probably not go into sex work.
There’s too much t respond to so I’m just going to leave this here. If you have any questions, I will try to answer them.
About trafficking, here is an article that is less biased than ‘BAD SEX WORK IS BAD’
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/03/27/lies-damned-lies-and-sex-work-statistics/
Even when it’s not as blatant as that, the commodification of sex is seen everywhere in out society. Look at advertising, if you can stomach it. Look at the still prevalent notion that marriage is a man buying sex, that women only give it up in return for material gain. Look at the bog-standard idea that buying a woman a drink or a meal means a deal has been made and she owes the man sex. Look at the woman being “given away” at the altar by a man! Commodification of sex is as old as the hills and prostitution is part of that. They feed into each other, I would think. If buying sex was considered unacceptable, how much prostitution would there be?
Also I’m too sleepy now to dig out the three sets of figures, but if you look at the parts of the world where it’s just kind of assumed that a very high percentage of men will pay for sex and line the countries that score high on that metric up next to the countries with a high level of gender inequality in general, and with stats on rape and other forms of sexual violence, oh hey, lots of overlap. Again impossible to cleanly separate chicken and egg, but having lived in a couple of those places and knowing people (like Mr C) who’ve lived in others I’m really not convinced that the widespread purchasing of sex and the idea that that’s an acceptable thing for men to do isn’t having a negative impact on the way men view the women in their lives and the way women’s role in society is framed in a more general sense.
@kitteh’s and Cassandra
I’m glad.
Re; Commodification
It’s not that I disagree that sex work is interacting with the misogyny of current society to affect how men see women. I just feel that, considering the level of misogyny that already exists, that it’s hard to say that this is something that is inherent to sex work. Part of the reason I feel this way is that I have never heard anyone finding that this is a trend found in gay communities, or that this is a trend found with women who engage sex workers. As far as I can see, this is pretty much solely a problem with how men are interacting with/viewing women. Of course this could also be because most of the focus is on men who buy sex from women, what with them being the overwhelming majority of clients (again thanks to sexism), and maybe this is a trend that has been found with people who buy sex in general. If it’s only a trend in sexist men, however, I do believe that the problem is not with the availabilty of sex workers, but with the misogynistic attitudes in society and these men, and that therefore it will become lesser and lesser as misogyny in society reduces.
That being said, it’s 5 and I need to get some sleep. I also think I should bow back out of this conversation. I don’t think I have enough of a stake in this to be aware of when I may be stepping out of line, and it’s not worth risking hurting feelings or enraging people.
Night all
@Cassandra
This was definitely not my intention. I am used to the “just like any other service job” argument from the side of my friends who do sex work, as well as other sex workers online, who are constantly combatting the idea that the fact that they work in the sex industry means that their lives, and life decisions, outside of work are defined by that. The angle of “It’s just like any other service job so get out there and do it if you need money” didn’t occur to me, and I’m perfectly happy to refrain from making that kind of comparison
I followed the sex toy/dog toy link (10/15 – go me!) and ended up down a rabbit hole.
These made me laugh out loud – http://metro.co.uk/2014/08/10/office-challenge-youve-got-the-whole-week-ahead-of-you-to-beat-these-desk-safari-efforts-4826740/
Kim, those are a hoot! I think the woman/Afghan hound is the winner – she picked something her hair blended with. 😀
He stops asking people to pull his finger?
There actually have been and continue to be LOTS of female (and PoC) inventors. Lots and lots. Being systematically erased from history and having for example your scientific discoveries named after a white dude who got there literally hundreds of years later is just what almost always happens to them.
Here’s a list of just 19 things invented by women, and a list of modern female inventors (plenty of overlap, since both are relatively modern inventions and inventors only). Then there are the tumblr posts floating around with very young women of color who are doing amazing things RIGHT NOW, all of them in their teens, making them one of the most universally and nonsensically reviled groups in the world. (Ew, teen girls, so vapid!)
And seriously, this stuff doesn’t stop when you go back further in time, it’s just that it was and remains very hard for women, most especially women of color, to get credit for anything. The Western assumption is that women were uneducated until the early 19th century, in all countries, for all of human history, and is kind of totally not true at all.
Women were some of the first inventors, the first scientists, the first mathematicians, the first astronomers. The world’s first doctor was probably this African woman.
So… yeah. Basically I’m writing all this to say,
a.) women have not always been denied education, because not every society since the dawn of time has been sexist. Indeed, it’s generally accepted that before agriculture, all societies were egalitarian, and through the rest of human history there have continued to be societies that were more egalitarian than 19th century America.
b.) even where they were, it didn’t stop them from inventing things. The real trouble is that the history we are taught is both deeply sexist and deeply white supremacist (and claims as white, either explicitly or by omission, MANY MANY PEOPLE AND CULTURES THAT WERE NOT).
A huge amount of our current history was written (or, more accurately, rewritten) by white men from the 1700s onwards, and they brought their biases into everything. From the tombs where skeletons were assigned gender based on our stereotypes (that one tomb recently, for example, where genetic testing proved the skeleton buried with the weapon was a woman and the one with a necklace was a man? Previously just assumed to be the other way around for no goddamned reason beyond sexism), to the very use of words like “dark ages” to describe a time when Europe floundered but the Middle East fucking flourished, or ignoring the fact that that flourishing and a great deal of Islamic effort to bring Europe their knowledge is WHY the “renaissance” “happened”.
This is a great post, and I love this site, but yeah. The phrasing really gives faaaaar too much credence to the red piller’s sexism. Women (and people of color of both genders) haven’t, actually, underperformed. The reason why it seems like white men invented damn near everything is that a great deal of effort has been gone to in order to perpetuate that illusion.
The story of the cotton gin’s invention is my favorite. Not only did a woman bankroll the venture, but she developed the final piece that made the whole thing work (the comb that removed the seeds). So, she paid for it, and her ingenuity made it work, but history still puts Eli Whitney’s name on it.
Not only that, but when the mixup was discovered, the sword that was interred “with” the man as a symbol of power suddenly was now “between” them as a symbol of union.
…but they don’t hate women, they’re not misogynists. It’s just that women are monsters, you see.
That’s hilarious. When someone is this cluelessly horrible, you just know they’re a libertarian.
It’s also funny that he complains that women worry too much with their appearance, then says that their looks are all that matter to him. He whines that women are too boring, but when they speak they are “loud c*nts” and they’re still not interesting.
I’d wager this guy is telling the truth about the awkward silence after sex with him. I just don’t think he’s being honest with us or himself about why the women who take him home don’t have much to say to him after sex. We’ve read about what “red pillers” think good sex is like. I can only imagine the disappointment and awkwardness as his casual partner tries to politely suggest that the evening is over, no she doesn’t want to hear more about how awesome he is and how I’d be thinking “kthanksby. No, don’t leave your number. You’ve wasted enough of my time.”
Bwahahahahahaaaaaa! Suuuuure.
Men who don’t accept this idiotic drivel don’t need a stupid label. They’re just plain ‘ol men and they A. Aren’t all straight and B. See the world far more clearly than the whiny, angry manbabies of the manosphere. The fragility of these misogynists is so obvious. For all of their claims of being “Alpha” and having the world all figured out, they’re really so muddled and scared. Men who don’t hate women enough are all getting “screwed over”? That’s demonstrably untrue. Hating, lying, raping, abusing and having your head wedged firmly in your bigoted ass is not winning. It’s a horrible way to go through life. I’d pity them, if it wasn’t exactly what these asshats deserve. I wish they would all just go their own way and leave the rest of the world alone.
hold the fuck up a minute…. one second women who spend more time on their character or education than their appearance are a bunch of hideous bitches who should be burned at the stake and these “redpillers” are happy to remind them that their only worth is physical attractiveness, another second women are a bunch of shallow harlots who dare to spend all their time gettin’ pretty and not being interesting or smart. WHICH ONE IS IT? WHAT DO YOU WANT? IS THERE ANY WAY WOMEN CAN ACT THAT ISN’T WRONG? I’m starting to think that this ‘red pill thinking’ is a bunch of directionless bilge and these guys are trying to find any and every reason to leigitimize their innate hatred of women?