Attention tiny ladies! Paul Elam wants you to know that if you attack him, he will totally punch you right back. And not in a satirical way, either. With his actual, non-satirical fists.
A Voice for Men’s maximum leader has long insisted that his notorious “Bash a Violent Bitch Month” post was nothing more than misunderstood “satire.” That is, when he argued that men who are abused by women would be totally justified if they “beat the living shit out of them. I don’t mean subdue them, or deliver an open handed pop on the face to get them to settle down. I mean literally to grab them by the hair and smack their face against the wall,” this was somehow a “Juvenalian” satire of some sort. There’s a famous quote from The Princess Bride that might be appropriate here.
Well, now Mr. Elam has announced to the world that every month is a potential “Bash a Violent Bitch Month” for him. Even if the “Violent Bitch” in question is less than half his size. In a post that he insists is super serious, he writes:
I want to offer a few words on this subject, and this time not in satire. I want to convey as honestly as possible, how I feel on the subject of violence between the sexes, from one man’s point of view.
I am 6’8” tall and 285 pounds. If a woman five feet tall and 110 pounds soaking wet hits me, I am going to hit her back.
Now, Elam does stop short of saying he would “beat the living shit” out of this hypothetical tiny woman, but, you know, in the heat of battle with someone less than half his size, he suggests that he might not be able to control his non-satirical fists:
I would do my best to return the violence proportionally, to just use enough force to stop the attack, but I can make no guarantees. Depending on the suddenness of the attack, the level of fear or threat I might feel, the impulse to self-defend in measured amounts is difficult, if not impossible to predict with any accuracy.
So, if there are any tiny ladies out there who might be considering jumping in a pool and then punching Paul Elam, I would suggest you not do that. Of course, I would suggest you not do that even if he weren’t going to hit back, because hitting people is generally a very bad thing.
Don’t worry, dudes – tiny or otherwise – Elam would totally punch you too!
It is the same reaction I would have to a man. No more and no less. The only way to prevent this and the consequences that may result is for people to keep their hands off me.
Presumably this would also apply to bears, giant squids, killer robots and anyone or anything else that tried to put its hands or paws or tentacles on him.
Now, if someone less than half my size were to attack me, and the situation weren’t life-threatening, I might, you know, back off and call the police instead. But apparently, this isn’t an option for men, because we’re all slaves, or something:
Most people who frequent this site know that men who call for help from police when being assaulted by female intimate partners are likely to be arrested for their troubles. … [T]here are prosecutors that will happily give the victim a criminal record and make them pay dearly for having been attacked.
This idea is completely insane on its face. Not only that, it is the closest thing we have today to the mentality of slave owners who could flog their slaves because they were property.
Never mind that women, who make up the vast majority of the victims of severe domestic violence, make up 20% of those arrested for DV. Never mind that even where there are mandatory arrest laws in effect, police still need probable or reasonable cause to show that domestic violence occurred – like physical evidence of injuries – before arresting a suspect. Never mind that even in states with “dual arrrest” policies, only about half of all domestic violence calls result in any arrests.
And never mind that if you use disproportionate force against someone less than half your size – as Elam suggests he very well might do – you deserve to go to jail, and for more than a night. “Beating the living shit” out of someone much smaller than you isn’t actually self-defense at all. It’s beating the living shit out of someone much smaller than you.
Now, Elam isn’t the only Men’s Rights Activist who seems to spend a lot of time imagining scenarios in which it would be ok for them to hit women. It’s a subject that comes up on the Men’s Rights subreddit all the time; the misogynistic douchebags who populate Reddit’s Videos subreddit are if anything even worse. And don’t ever do a Google image search for “equal rights equal lefts” unless you want to be really depressed.
The Men’s Rights movement: bravely fighting for the right of men to punch women half their size.
@YoullNeverGuess: Exactly! Plus, my husband eats breakfast on the couch every morning, so with a blanket, I can just pull that sucker off, give it a gentle shake, and then vacuum the floor instead of having to vacuum all the couch-crevices constantly 😀 I still do like having fancy pillows, though; I’m trying to decide what kind of fabric to use to do new cases for our old ones – they’re currently a navy velvet, but I’m not a fan of the red/blue combo.
“Wasnt Elam a ANGER COUNCILOR for shits sake?
fucking disgusting.
@wolverine…Substance-abuse counselor in the 80’s, when you didn’t need much other than a low-level certification to be one, no bachelor’s, no master’s.
…So Elam would have been working in an environment that was (a) heavily female,since women tend to go into counseling a lot…
(b) he would have been very underqualified as compared to said women.
…Considering the arrogance of his personality, he was probably experiencing a lot of women, on a really regular basis, telling him he was full of crap.
(I hate that I haven’t figured out how to blockquote yet. Please bear with me…)
This whole thing of concocting scenarios where it’s okay to hurt people really calls to mind the way “Stand Your Ground” laws have been used and abused in the USA. People seem to be coming up with situations where the “self-defence” arguments are more and more tenuous, and the rationale for shooting someone dead becomes weaker and weaker…
A few months back some guy set up an elaborate trap where he hid in his own house with the lights off and left the garage door open with valuables visible. When two people did try to steal some stuff he killed them, coldly, with dehumanising comments and almost supervillian-level detachment…
Anyway. That’s what gets called to my mind with this crap. The desire to do harm comes first, and then the bullshit rationalisations come after. If someone tries to hurt me – bigger and stronger or smaller and weaker or my clone from a parallel universe – I’m going to use exactly as much force as I need to either stop them from hurting me so I can talk some sense into them, or to get the hell away from them.
I don’t entertain scenarios in which I’d be “justified” for causing major harm to another person. I guess that makes me a mangina in the MRA’s books.
@Save the Queen : I clicked on Phonecian’s link and saw that it was going to Rick Astley. Rickrolled in two thousand-freaking-fourteen. Gave me a chuckle.
So about once a year from now on seems appropriate…
Oi. I had just moved to Toronto when that trial happened. One of the people I worked with at my first job here went to high school with him (and noted that everybody she knew thought he was a creep even back then).
The biggest thing I remember was his lawyer, who had already done ethically and legally problematic things for that Paul (specifically going to the house, picking up the hidden video tapes that the police had missed, and removing them from the crime scene) eventually quitting and handing over all the evidence he had collected. Why? Because he knew from Holmolka’s trial that there was absolutely no way Bernardo was walking free; there was too much evidence against him even without the tapes. He kept trying to get Bernardo to plea bargain. Bernardo refused to accept that. He was way to much into that ‘I am smarter than everybody else’ arrogance that some people get into. He’d managed to get away with everything he’d done so far, playing everybody else for fools; he was sure he could get away with this, too.
The lawyer eventually just walked away, saying he couldn’t work with his client anymore, and handed over all the evidence the police would have needed to put Benardo away even if his girlfriend hadn’t already turned Crown’s evidence.
Interesting: in order to criticize David they have to dredge up and completely misrepresent something from many years ago. To criticize them, all David has to do is copy and paste from their current material.
The criticism I’ve always had about the “Bash a Violent Bitch Month” article was Elam’s advocacy of disproportional violence. In his latest article, it’s telling that he explicitly talks about proportional violence:
As if that makes it okay. You can’t ignore the circumstances and height and weight differentials and set up a universal rule that applies to all situations. “(B)ut I can make no guarantees” is his rageboner talking.
@Haribo Lector
Your joke made me uncomfortable. It was reminiscent of the rape scene in “Gone with the Wind”. Picking up a woman and kissing her without her consent is wrong even as a joke.
You know, if a woman slaps a man, and he slaps her back with the same level of force — I’m not going to praise him, but that’s at least an understandable, human reaction. But it is really fucking clear that is not what Elam is talking about. The only reason it is relevant for him to mention the relative sizes of the two people involved in this hypothetical scenario is to make it really clear that one person is going to suffer disproportionately from the exchange of violence.
That mindset of responding to violence with retaliatory violence — in the absence of any other justification, like self defense or the immediate defense of another person — is just so foreign to me.
I’m a 5’8 woman, and if a 5′ woman hit me, I would get the hell away from her. If I couldn’t get the hell away from her, and she wasn’t continuing to hit me, I would use my words not my fists. If she was continuing to hit me, and I couldn’t get away, and I couldn’t restrain her or get help from bystanders, I would use the minimum level of force necessary to protect myself.
…And furthermore, do any of us think Elam REALLY empathizes with battered men?
Or are they just another stalking horse to him?
He also stated that he didn’t like to actually work. Much better to ask – demand his minions to dig deep and sent in.
send, not sent
@cloudiah: You know, if a woman slaps a man, and he slaps her back with the same level of force — I’m not going to praise him, but that’s at least an understandable, human reaction. But it is really fucking clear that is not what Elam is talking about.
No, he’s talking about an excuse for his own violence, rather than a way to stop her violence.
(chaos-engineer)
Ill take it slow.
I have read the message board a year in advance,
off and on.
Inapropriate behaviour? I srsly think asuming that I
am pro abuse … without even asking me who I am is rude…
or calling me a troll – – (ur relationship to ur trolls has nothing to do with me ive done nothing trolly.)
fyi I used the word spam (with a smiley) cause I posted a quote (with some opinions of the text and a somewhat of a sexist online meeting with the manosphere I felt like sharing) here -https://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/2014/08/06/are-street-harassers-the-real-victims-of-street-harassment-one-mens-rights-redditor-says-yes/
and I wanted to continue the discussion in todays thread, IF ANYONE WAS INTERESTED.
so I want u to rly know – spam referd to something u havent even read (which comes with opinions of mine) not to the quote itself. I thought maybe its a little long but then i rememberd – the internet is big.
lol i got defensive?! r u serious? I am not allowed to get defensive
when — if u dont understand this, well srsly im sure that u do understand
if u look at the picture/scene and also try on ma perspective.
“make changes 2 suite me” WTF – tell me, how have I done (demanded!) this?
“Anyway, welcome to ‘We Hunted the Mammoth’! Please try to do better next time.”
Well ofc I dont feel welcome – try to be kind to –new-?- people next time –
—
kirbywarp
no I didnt but yesterday is long gone.
no that is not what happend i didnt bounce in saying that please if ur gonna have opinions of me atleast dont cutpace what i say
“Sorry, not everything you say is going to trigger great conversation. Sometimes there are flops.”
ur statement is so rude and it has nothing to do with me i have not demanded anything but to not be belittled, insulted and misinturperated but i did express a desire of this when asked
i dont say hi, its not cool. (please note i use irony)
——————
but that u r trying to tell me how i can express myself without beeing bullied
by beeing “valuble”, “silent listening” and “ontopic” (whatever that rly means)
is, and ofc this is my opinion, ——-ridicolous——–
***
Hey contrapangloss ofc i think ur suggestion of starting over is wonderfull ty
now u force me to describe myself ;), i am not comfortbale with this but i will give some words. I come from (and live! in — ^^) sweden – i have lurked around gender forums silently watching occationaly talking and also moderated for many years. I am a poet and i tend to write and talk from that part of my brain—: http://objekt3.blogspot.com/ well lets just give u all a face (and a real nick this one is just by accident)
i am not interested in good formats, i am however very interested in kindness — especially my own ^^. I am not interested in others rules, i am interested in beeing who i am, expressing myself the way i do, but i am not into, and i say it again with different words, beeing mean in anyway and it is very wierd that for me to be able to have a conversation here u are telling me that i am to follow some kind of imagined conduct of expression and that – i find opressive – dont box ma language (me) like that.
well ending ending
i can i guess do this 2 ways none of them with words cause i am out of good once for a short while
1. http://www.vice.com/en_se/read/the-women-of-the-mens-rights-movement-804 (this is THE link, ive heard third times a charm 😉 )
2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjCzeUGT0gA (this is something greenhaired and a long time ago, maybe not good anymore, but charming)
Peace
o3
[quote]
I don’t entertain scenarios in which I’d be “justified” for causing major harm to another person.
-strivingally [/quote]
I do,*looks a bit embarrassed* but I was traumatized starting at 4.
So my personal heuristic is that people are really dangerous and I might need to defend myself.
beegee, I agree that smaller people, whatever gender, can be dangerous. I guess what I was trying to get across was that, as Cloudiah notes. all of Elam’s punching women scenarious involve the fantasy of beating someone smaller and weaker.
In his short story, there is no fight, the hero punches a woman he’s angry at (an ex portrayed in a ridiculously overblown way as a terrible person), breaks her nose.
In his “beat a violent bitch month” post the man is assumed to be able to “beat the shit” out of a woman who hits him.
And in his post today he makes clear that the only way he could avoid hurting this hypothetical 5 ft woman is if he’s able to hold himself back … though he might not be able to.
At no point in any of these fantasies is the woman a real physical threat.
Then you are not going to have a happy fun time here. Every place you go has a code of conduct, this board is no different.
This does not mean you’re being oppressed, it means you’re being asked to follow community standards if you want to have a productive stay. If you want to shit on the rug, that’s up to you, but no one else has to like it.
Umm, no offense, khamzin, but this is really how you’re coming across:
khamzin: Don’t tell me what to dooooo!
khamzin: Behave how I tell you!
So, um, if you don’t appreciate people giving you examples of how to communicate in a way that will be understood and well-received on this site (your intent is not magic, here; none of us can read your mind to tell what you mean; all we have to go on here is your literal written words and our history with other commentors), perhaps do not compound the issue by demanding that they behave in ways you don’t find “mean” or whatever. If you won’t take the advice of the commentariat here, whatever makes you think that they’ll take kindly to your whinging demands?
Actually, strike that “no offense.” Yes, offense. Because I can tell you’re going to take it so, regardless.
@Khamzin:
No, it wasn’t rude, it was an explanation. And an attempt at finding common ground. I’ve made posts that were ignored as well, it happens.
No one here is belittling or insulting you. Maybe you feel you’re being misnterpreted, but that comes with the territory of talking to strangers on the internet. However, as dustedeste mentioned, you are coming across as demanding.
So again, settle down, start over, and maybe we can all get off on the right foot this time.
Along with what David said, yeah, these are not actual complaints about not being able to defend yourself. These are fantasies of being powerful and demonstrating how powerful you are to some would-be agressor, to the chagrin of whoevere it is that says “women can hit you, but you can’t hit women.”
In my mind, Elam used a woman much smaller than him as an example because he wanted to demonstrate just how little he cared about women. Even if someone posed little threat to him (on account of being much smaller), he would let loose because he feels like he should be able to.
@blahlistic
Hi. Have a Welcome package
It says in there how to do blockquotes 🙂
Mr. Elam may not be aware that as little as 8 pounds of pressure can break his knee. But those who study the traditional martial arts are…
And once a man’s down it does not matter how big he is. ( I wonder if he’s familiar with the idea of “ground and pound”?)
Not that I recommend grounding and pounding; you will probably go to jail for it. My point is that Mr. E. doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
MRA’s collectively wanking to fantasies about beating up women? Must be a day that ends in Y. Keep on helping those men, fellas.
I’m behind on this thread and I’m sure cosmicrays has been thoroughly schooled but I badly need to point and laugh at one of their comments.
What have you done David? In the name of all that’s holy what have you, feminist theory and, to a lesser extent, patriarchy done?
I’m only on the first page and this tread is already rolling thanks to internet tough guy mythago, boyz!
http://youtu.be/VBEcLxnXVAc
Unfortunately for mythago school is out for the summer, but not forever. Don’t forget to read Steinbeck’s Mice and Men mythago, it’s on the summer reading list.