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Paul Elam: "If a woman five feet tall and 110 pounds soaking wet hits me, I am going to hit her back."

Should these books be required reading for MRAs?
Should these books be required reading for MRAs?

Attention tiny ladies! Paul Elam wants you to know that if you attack him, he will totally punch you right back. And not in a satirical way, either. With his actual, non-satirical fists.

A Voice for Men’s maximum leader has long insisted that his notorious “Bash a Violent Bitch Month” post was nothing more than misunderstood “satire.” That is, when he argued that men who are abused by women would be totally justified if they “beat the living shit out of them. I don’t mean subdue them, or deliver an open handed pop on the face to get them to settle down. I mean literally to grab them by the hair and smack their face against the wall,” this was somehow a “Juvenalian” satire of some sort. There’s a famous quote from The Princess Bride that might be appropriate here.

Well, now Mr. Elam has announced to the world that every month is a potential “Bash a Violent Bitch Month” for him. Even if the “Violent Bitch” in question is less than half his size. In a post that he insists is super serious, he writes:

I want to offer a few words on this subject, and this time not in satire. I want to convey as honestly as possible, how I feel on the subject of violence between the sexes, from one man’s point of view.

I am 6’8” tall and 285 pounds. If a woman five feet tall and 110 pounds soaking wet hits me, I am going to hit her back.

Now, Elam does stop short of saying he would “beat the living shit” out of this hypothetical tiny woman, but, you know, in the heat of battle with someone less than half his size, he suggests that he might not be able to control his non-satirical fists:

I would do my best to return the violence proportionally, to just use enough force to stop the attack, but I can make no guarantees. Depending on the suddenness of the attack, the level of fear or threat I might feel, the impulse to self-defend in measured amounts is difficult, if not impossible to predict with any accuracy.

So, if there are any tiny ladies out there who might be considering jumping in a pool and then punching Paul Elam, I would suggest you not do that. Of course, I would suggest you not do that even if he weren’t going to hit back, because hitting people is generally a very bad thing.

Don’t worry, dudes – tiny or otherwise – Elam would totally punch you too!

It is the same reaction I would have to a man. No more and no less. The only way to prevent this and the consequences that may result is for people to keep their hands off me.

Presumably this would also apply to bears, giant squids, killer robots and anyone or anything else that tried to put its hands or paws or tentacles on him.

Now, if someone less than half my size were to attack me, and the situation weren’t life-threatening, I might, you know, back off and call the police instead. But apparently, this isn’t an option for men, because we’re all slaves, or something:

Most people who frequent this site know that men who call for help from police when being assaulted by female intimate partners are likely to be arrested for their troubles. … [T]here are prosecutors that will happily give the victim a criminal record and make them pay dearly for having been attacked.

This idea is completely insane on its face. Not only that, it is the closest thing we have today to the mentality of slave owners who could flog their slaves because they were property.

Never mind that women, who make up the vast majority of the victims of severe domestic violence, make up 20% of those arrested for DV. Never mind that even where there are mandatory arrest laws in effect, police still need probable or reasonable cause to show that domestic violence occurred – like physical evidence of injuries – before arresting a suspect. Never mind that even in states with “dual arrrest” policies, only about half of all domestic violence calls result in any arrests.

And never mind that if you use disproportionate force against someone less than half your size – as Elam suggests he very well might do – you deserve to go to jail, and for more than a night. “Beating the living shit” out of someone much smaller than you isn’t actually self-defense at all. It’s beating the living shit out of someone much smaller than you.

Now, Elam isn’t the only Men’s Rights Activist who seems to spend a lot of time imagining scenarios in which it would be ok for them to hit women. It’s a subject that comes up on the Men’s Rights subreddit all the time; the misogynistic douchebags who populate Reddit’s Videos subreddit are if anything even worse. And don’t ever do a Google image search for “equal rights equal lefts” unless you want to be really depressed.

The Men’s Rights movement: bravely fighting for the right of men to punch women half their size.

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cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Were you alcohol tested for every job you’ve worked?

Oh, good, I wasn’t the only one rolling my eyes at the comment that included booze in the list of drugs that can disrupt a person’s work performance that failed to note that oh, hey, we don’t test for that at all.

I’m still boggling at the fact that beegee dropped a comment about how patronizing it is to tell men not to hit women in a thread about a guy who’s looking for any excuse he can find to give women half his size a beatdown. What is context, dumbass?

blahlistic (@blahlistic)

I live on less than $10,000 a year! Seriously, SIXTEEN YEARS of keeping me alive costs less than a fucking year’s salary for these guys? Seriously? And yet I’M the one who’s bankrupting America and needs to get drug-tested and pushed through hoops to get housing?

…When I was on foodstamps (it’s been about 18 years, I think, memory’s fuzzy ), I expressed guilt about taking assistance to this one guy.

He said something like: ” Don’t you worry about it, you go on and take that money. That’s a little less money they can use to make bombs to kill people with.”

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

Cassandra,
There’s also the inconvenient fact that marijuana is the only narcotic that has a long half life and stays in the system for a while. For everything else you only need to be sober while you’re peeing and you should be fine. So the harmless drug is what gets punished. So stupid.

Regarding ebt: Does anyone remember when there was a glitch in the system and for a while a Wal-Mart in Louisiana was allowing unlimited ebt purposes. A bunch of people took advantage. The media of course came down hard on them. I just love that when someone like Mitt Romney finds a loophole and takes advantage of it, it’s an intelligent business decision but when the poor do the same it’s mooching off of taxpayers.

Fuck!

PS: Sorry if I’m getting increasingly ranty. I’ve been drinking wine.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

Purchases, not purposes. Ugh!

blahlistic (@blahlistic)

You’d know, of course, that the word “privilege” means “private law.”
There’s private law for the well-heeled and the public law for the rest of us.
And I get off work in less than an hour, at which point I will actually…stop…posting…

contrapangloss
6 years ago

WWTH:

You meant purchases, wrote purposes, and I read porpoises. I think it’s just one of those nights…

Typos, they happen. I have no excuse for the cetaceans, though.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

Is this a good time to repost the link to Clarence Darrow’s address to prisoners at Cook County jail?
http://www.bopsecrets.org/CF/darrow.htm

There’s a reason I named my cat after him <3

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Yeah, beegee was going on about needing to test for coke and meth, and both of those clear your system a lot faster than weed. And I can’t see why someone being stoned would be a huge problem that must be stopped at work unless their job involved driving, or access to food that they could potentially eat all of when an attack of the munchies hit, thus leaving none for customers.

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
6 years ago

I have no excuse for the cetaceans, though.

Miscetaceanry!

WHAT ABOUT TEH CETACEANS

blahlistic (@blahlistic)

I have no excuse for the cetaceans, though.

Miscetaceanry!

WHAT ABOUT TEH CETACEANS

…Some of us are still looking for our life’s porpoises…

katz
6 years ago

I have no excuse for the cetaceans, though.

Miscetaceanry!

WHAT ABOUT TEH CETACEANS

…Some of us are still looking for our life’s porpoises…

Cetacean needed.

blahlistic (@blahlistic)

Ok…another 12 hour shift over, g’night.

contrapangloss
6 years ago

Cetacean needed

Whale, I’ll get right on it!

katz
6 years ago

Whale, I’ll get right on it!

Thanks for baleen me out!

contrapangloss
6 years ago

It was totally a fluke.

katz
6 years ago

I sei what you did there.

pallygirl
pallygirl
6 years ago

Once I get over this writer’s hump, back at ya!

contrapangloss
6 years ago

Don’t hector me too much if I have to dive deep to find flipper puns…

pallygirl
pallygirl
6 years ago

That will be the last tail you tell. 😛

Gen
Gen
6 years ago

@ Aunt Edna‘s comment:

The best way for a woman not to get beaten to a bloody pulp is not to attack or disrespect men. Woman want equality so welcome to boots to the ribs and fists to the face.

You see how they sneak “or disrespectful” in there. That’s what this is really about, isn’t it?

About bodies and body size, I am watching Roswell, that alien show from the 1990s because I didn’t catch it at the time, and I am AMAZED at how much more real the women look. Seriously, like Katherine Heigl (sp?) actually has hips. The amount of change in what feels like just a few short years (Roswell was late 90s) is amazing. These days in TV shows you get the ultra thin must-have-thigh-gap actresses whose heads look disproportionally large in comparison with their child-like bodies.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

“Disrespectful” can of course then be defined to mean whatever the man who wants to use it as an excuse to beat women wants it to mean.

Gen
Gen
6 years ago

“Disrespectful” can of course then be defined to mean whatever the man who wants to use it as an excuse to beat women wants it to mean.

Yes, exactly. Didn’t give him a blowjob every time he walked into a room? Disrespectful. Didn’t feed him grapes while fanning him with palm fronds? Disrespectful. And so forth.

katz
6 years ago

Cccccombo breaker! But it was nice to get some rorquality time.

pallygirl
pallygirl
6 years ago

Do! Phinally I get the last word?

Robert
Robert
6 years ago

I worked for the US Federal Government for over twenty years without a single drug test. Now that I’m on SSDI, I’m still not getting drug tested.

Regarding the OP, it seems like some people really like the idea of having an excuse to hit somebody. I’m reminded of Erin Pizzey’s remark about how delightful throwing a glass of wine in somebody’s face can be. Who thinks like that?! (rhetorical question)

I was telling my eldest son about how rum got its name once. When it was first introduced to England, rumbullion was the slang term for a street brawl. People who drank the new sugarcane liquor got into fights so often, it was called rumbullion liquor. Rum, for short. I was drinking a lot of rum at the time, and asked him what he’d think if Pop (me) got drunk and wanted to fight. He looked perplexed and said, “That would be. . .odd.” I’m glad to know that violence, random or otherwise, is something he has a hard time associating with me.

LBT (with an open writeathon!)

RE: Malitia

So here I’m admitting, that I’m shallow and judge the book by its cover.

I hate that stupid saying. A cover should be the book’s fastest, most immediate advertising. It’s INTENDED to be judged. I say this as someone who makes comics and designs my own covers. I realize that a lot of prose authors don’t get a say in their cover design, but still, covers are SUPPOSED to be attractive to a reader. If they turn a reader away, then either they’re not someone you WANT as a reader, or you’re doing it wrong.

RE: blahlistic

Ohhhh, I misunderstood. When you said ‘prepared’ I thought you meant like, restaurant food and hot meals. Never mind, we’re in agreement. You are right, you no horseshit.

Actually, this seems like a good place to drop this! It’s a cookbook intended for people on food stamps! I need to give it a good look through, but it seems pretty handy!

booburry
6 years ago

beegee, you need to pull your head out of your ass so that you can see your way out of here.
Do you even understand how welfare works? For most part the welfare people receive is not cash benefits. Food Stamps come on a re-loadable debit type of card with strict rules as to what you can buy with it. Welfare often pays your rent or your share of the rent, and that goes directly to your landlord. I have been on welfare and known plenty of people on welfare (I’m also a recovering baaad evil drug addict) and the actual cash in hand benefits that most people get is laughably low. It is also the part of welfare that most people like you seem to whine about. Poor people in direct control of a small sun of money!?! Oh no! The idea that this small sum could fund an addict for more than a few days is just ridiculous.

I was going to go off on another tangent about how drug treatment is fucked up in this country as well as incredibly fucking hard to access if you don’t have 1.money 2. time 3. insurance 4. a consistent form of transportation. Most people seem to want to focus on punishing drug addicts FIRST, and then ya know, maybe reforming this fucked up system at some later date or not at all.

booburry
6 years ago

Also, I apologize because I hadn;t read the rest of the thread and see that you have moved on. Sorry :/

Robert
Robert
6 years ago

LBT, I had not heard of Andy Blake. Oh myyyy. He sounds like someone who would have been mocked on the old Portal of Evil site. Thanks for sharing your MSTing.

LBT (with an open writeathon!)

RE: Robert

Andy Blake is a very, very special person. Part of why I MSTed him so aggressively is that he’s basically the person that I fear I am, in my deepest darkest moments: someone who uses their mental oddity to control, manipulate, and abuse everyone around him, who’s left nothing but horror in his wake, and continues doing so with some bullshit about his mental illness.

It doesn’t help that he keeps changing what his mental illness IS. He’s used: schizophrenia, DID, schizophrenia-spectrum disorder (which doesn’t even exist), Borderline Personality Disorder (which he admits lying about), ADD, PTSD, and depression. He’s currently trying to phase out the DID bit, while still insisting he had alters, and ARGH he makes me so angry.

Sam-I-Was?
Sam-I-Was?
6 years ago

Sorry to interrupt the marine life puns as it’s been a long week & I’m just not that witty at the moment.

Beegee, I am in a job where I am supposed to get drug tested on a regular basis as I deal with large amounts of money & yes if I would try to do my job drunk (my drug of choice) it could be very bad to the point of closing down the company. However alcohol is so abundant in my job, the phrase “this is why I drink!!” is stated by everyone at least once a day & surprisingly enough alcohol is not one of the things that they test for. And I’m sure you will be shocked, SHOCKED, that as a white cis person I have been tested only once in 3 years while I’m supposed to be tested every 6-9 months. But of course making it mandatory to test someone who is down on their luck before they receive basic things to live on makes so much more sense then testing me at a regular basis. How about we offer more of a helping hand for people to get up when they are ready for it then to slap them down when they need it most. And yes, whether you like it or not, putting strings on getting basic things that allow human dignity is the equivalent to slapping them down for not living up to your standards. When your life sucks

Also are you aware that at some point when you are wrestling with your child you will lose? It’s life, Eventually your child will be bigger and stronger then you. What do you plan to do at that point if you are already planning how to subdue them when they are only 9? Will you take the loss or fight back until someone is really hurt?

tl/dr- Drug testing is a way for upper income (mainly white) people to state that they think someone should starve without actually saying it.

beegee
beegee
6 years ago

@Cassandra, no it isn’t patronizing when we tell men not to aggress towards women because yes, men are typically bigger and stronger. It IS patronizing to act as if a man striking a female aggressor is automatically in the wrong because OBVIOUSLY the smaller person is totally not a threat amirite? Its the same with a large child. It’s not “right” because children are smaller and emotionally/mentally immature. But I’m not going to die or get seriously hurt in order to avoid striking a large child. Not that I plan on ever having to.

Of course, what Elam is describing isn’t self defense, and the quote posted by Aunt Alias is just fuuuuuuuuu…

@sam

My daughter already consistantly wins and occasionally hurts me. I don’t hit bavk because it was an accident, not an attack. I can assure you my daughter would never attack me, and I would never have to strike back, because she’s too kind for that.

Havn’t you guys ever been attacked? I would hate to see a self-defense course taught by some of you. “Talk your way out, or run away and dodge. These are fool-proof; you don’t need to know any strikes!” Maybe in an ideal world…

bunnybunny
bunnybunny
6 years ago

Havn’t you guys ever been attacked? I would hate to see a self-defense course taught by some of you. “Talk your way out, or run away and dodge. These are fool-proof; you don’t need to know any strikes!” Maybe in an ideal world…

Many self-defense courses recognize that in the majority of cases, physical self defense is a last resort. I’m not sure why this is confusing to you.

beegee
beegee
6 years ago

I should apologize for not being clear by what I meant by “self defense” the other day. I assumed that people would realize that “self-defense” would be interperted as “last ditch effort to perserve life and limb”. But I should NOT have assumed that it would be interperted that way. There’s certainly enough dumboldoors out there like Elam that define self-defense as “a free pass to be the aggressor”. I was sorta beat as a child so then I got triggered and then yeah… it went bad.

hellkell
hellkell
6 years ago

I would hate to see a self-defense course taught by some of you.

As much as I would hate to see a course on how to treat the poor run by you.

Flying Mouse
Flying Mouse
6 years ago

Yeah, I second bunnybunny. I’ve done a little hand-to-hand combat training and self-defense classes. In both of them, your objective was to throw your opponent off balance or break their hold long enough to escape. The aim was to live to fight another day, not to completely subdue your attacker.

Flying Mouse
Flying Mouse
6 years ago

Oops, shouldda refreshed first.

Lea
Lea
6 years ago

Beegee,
Are you really going to point out that you suspect the people disagreeing with you would get beat up in a brawl as a counterpoint?

People who wouldn’t hit kids under any circumstances are not wimps, if that’s what you are suggesting.

Maybe it’s time to take a break from this topic.

To me, discussing exactly how old, large and violent a child has to be before you can hit them is creepy in the same way “Is it still rape if…” is creepy.

Just a general note to anybody to whom this may pertain:

You shouldn’t live in fear of being harmed your children. If you do, please try to get help for you and your children. That is not healthy or normal or something you should try to deal with on your own. More violence is not the answer. If your situation is so extreme that you feel so in danger from your child or teen that you feel you may be forced to strike them in self defense, that situation merits outside intervention. It probably has for a while if things have gotten to this point. There are behavior therapists, counselors, etc. that can help you. You can call a domestic crisis center for help.

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

Um, I took aikido till I blew out my knee. Aikido is basically ENTIRELY defensive, not offensive, and ideally, you don’t hurt anyone, just stop them, and hopefully run like hell. The first thing I learned was how to fall. (Seriously, they had us all just fall and tumble in circles all over the dojo like the world’s worst acrobats.)

And you know what? That’s how I prefer it to be. I have a really strong block about hurting people, and I’m not sure it’s one I want to break. The two times I’ve intervened in violent attacks (and the attack was directed towards someone else, not me), it’s true, I didn’t defend myself physically. I screamed, I shouted, and I made sure I had 911 on the line so that if they did attack me, it would be recorded and they would get jail time. Luckily, that was enough, and I was able to get both victims safe without anyone else getting hurt.

So yes, if it came to a brawl, I would get wrecked. And that is something I consciously choose to accept.

Robert
Robert
6 years ago

My son, now thirteen, has been in therapy since he was five. He is on multiple psychiatric medications. He is also almost as tall and weighs almost as much as me.

I did not grow up in a family in which physical violence was A Thing. When he started hitting me, I would attempt to break away, block, or otherwise neutralize the threat. Hitting back was never an option. Due to patience, therapy and medication, he no longer hits me. I consider this to be a good thing. He may never have native fluency in Empathy, but he will be able to ask where the train station is.

beegee
beegee
6 years ago

@Robert, since you’re standing here talking and presumibly don’t have broken bones or serious injuries, you weren’t under risk of life or limb. You responded appropiately. Of course, you’re also a full grown man and I doubt you weigh a little over a hundred pounds either. Maybe if you did it would be different.

@LBT I’m glad that you defended yourself by yelling. Everyone wins when violence can be avoided. If you had been attacked, you may not have had time to dial 911. Attacks can happen quickly. And lets face it, even if caught your attackers may not have faced any jail time. Even in a liberal area like Boston, never mind the rest of the country. We live in a country where a black kid can get chased down a street and shot in the chest and it’s “legally perfect self-defense”. Yeah. 9_9

Aikido has some strikes to it; I seem to remember some chops and a nasty kick to the groin. Or moves that can break an attacker’s bones. So even Aikido recoginizes that offense is simetimes necessary. But I like aikido and it’s emphasis on defense. 🙂 I would like to start going and sign up my daughter but I’m sooooo broke and my daughters karate lessons are gifts.

@lea, I don’t think that absolutely ANY of you are wusses, but I do think that some of you are painfully naive about the danger and chaos of fights. ” I am small and normally quiet so I attract assholes. You can’t control how someone else behaves or responds. All you can do is try your best and its up to the other person on how they respond. No stratagy is ALWAYS effective which is why AFAIK ALL martial arts teach offense as well as defense. Even Aikido.

Also, thank younfor the passive aggressive slight over my daughter. I’m NOT afraid of my daughter. My daughter wouldn’t hurt me, or anyone else, I’m just using her as a gauge for how strong a 9 year old could be. She’s well adjusted and all the teachers love her, so thank you very much. 9_9

In general, I’m not afraid of 9 year olds, and I have literally never thought of this topic before David asked. If I’m a creep for answeri g the question, then isn’t David a creep for asking? Oh no!

Why would a 9 year old attack an adult? I don’t know. Why do 9 year olds join gangs not too far from where I live? Why does this world suck so much lea? Why?

I’ve been attacked unprovoked. Once, after a particularly bad argument, my mom pinned me to the wall by my throat. I didn’t hit back, because I didn’t think I should of. My sister ended up seriously injured when an abusive girlfriend slammed her head into the stairs. A guy I know tried to turn his back and ignore a roudy drunk, only to have the drunk sucker punch him from behind and smash him until his jaw and cheekbone were broken. He needed surgery, but he had kids and mouths to feed. Do you think the bar room drunk paid for his surgery and time off from work? Hahahaha Mr. Drunk had no money, so my friend skipped the surgery and let his face settle in. I don’t think thw guy got a day in jail either. That’s just the tip of the surface.

I think its great if you want to be a pacifist and stand there! As for me, I have children who need me to not be dead or severly injured. What it boils down to is I don’t have a right to be an aggressor, but I’m sorry I have a intrinsic right to defend myself from a threat to life and limb, I don’t care WHO the aggressor is. It’s a decision I made long ago, I don’t think about it. And that’s it. 🙂

hellkell
hellkell
6 years ago

Just stop already.

Fibinachi
6 years ago

This conversation is a little confusing, I normally try to avoid doing this, because it clutters up the thread, but… what the hell is going on?

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

I don’t know, Fibinachi, but I wish it’d stop.

contrapangloss
6 years ago

I’m with LBT.

So done.

Have cute raccoons:
http://youtu.be/CC7wQoJP9CQ
(Note: at work, so I have no idea what it sounds like, but they’re super cute!)

Auntie Alias
Auntie Alias
6 years ago

Raccoon kits are adorable! Such fascinating animals. I used to see them in the yard during the summer but ever since the city forced us to switch to special containers which are very tall, I haven’t seen one.

katz
6 years ago

Am I the only one who hears “raccoon kit” and thinks “build your own raccoon?”

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

Fuck it! I’m throwing my final poll for this writeathon. (Unless more money gets thrown at me, which I wouldn’t be averse to.) Which stories get sketched? Your choice, readers!

Auntie Alias
Auntie Alias
6 years ago

LOL, Katz.