Confused Dudes Confused by Confused Cats Against Feminism

Nothing says fair and measured like “whingers”.

Looks like Niall didn’t read his own source. From the Guardian:

Those numbers are not quite correct, but they are nonetheless horrifying. First of all, “sexual assault” is not always the same as “rape” and includes a variety of behaviour that wouldn’t meet the legal standard for rape. So it’s not clear that there are actually more rapes of men than women, or more rapes of prisoners than non-prisoners. Also, the number I found through the Department of Justice (DOJ) was 88,500 victims of sexual victimisation. This New York Review of Books article says that the DOJ revised those findings, getting to 216,000.

According to Rainn, there are 213,000 victims of sexual assault in the US every year. More than 9/10ths of those victims are women and girls. The numbers Rainn uses come from the DOJ National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS). The NCVS, though, is clear that its methodology for gathering sexual assault stats is pretty limited, and probably doesn’t present a 100% accurate picture of what victims experience. The NCVS also doesn’t seem to include prisoners (at least as far as I can tell), but would include people who were sexually assaulted in prison within the past year, but were out of prison at the time the NCVS was taken. So there’s likely some overlap, although very small, between the two surveys.

“Inmates” also does not translate to “men”. There are a whole lot of women in jail, and female prisoners are twice as likely to experience inmate-on-inmate sexual assault (male inmates are slightly more likely to experience assault at the hands of prison staff). So again, not so obvious that more men than women experience sexual assault. It also looks like the NCVS statistics, which include “rape and sexual assault,” are not calculated in quite the same way as the prison “sexual victimisation” statistics – that is, different kinds of behaviours are included in the prison survey that don’t appear to be included in the NCVS. For example, from the New York Review of Books:

The conclusion that men are more likely to be victims of sex crimes wasn’t reached.

There are many reasons to be horrified by prison assault – and sexual assault generally – but the degree to which it’s enmeshed in the American consciousness as just part of our system of “justice” is particularly disturbing. While it looks to me like more women than men are sexually assaulted every year, it is clear that entering the prison system greatly increases your chances of being sexually assaulted, regardless of your gender. And however you cut the statistics, it is clear that men in the United States are sexually assaulted in enormous numbers – they’re just men we don’t care so much about, or that society has decided deserves it.

The conclusion, one which I agree with, is that this is an issue of inmates of any gender not having basic human rights because people don’t generally care about them. This is an issue of class and race. Not gender. Privileged white MRAs/anti-feminists are constantly appropriating class and race issues. Don’t pretend to be concerned about inmates when you’re only focusing on male inmates. If your are white and middle or upper class, don’t claim the oppression of inmates as your own just because many of them are men. Intersectionalism fail as usual.

Since Niall isn’t an USian and may not be familiar with the situation, I should also point out that a lot of our mass incarceration problem is about (surprise, surprise) corporate profits. http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-prison-industry-in-the-united-states-big-business-or-a-new-form-of-slavery/8289

Again, this is not something feminists are responsible for and I don’t know a single feminist who likes the prison industrial complex.

You’re making the mistake of thinking I’m blaming feminism for all men’s woes. I’m not. Nor have I at any point on this thread. My comments have been fair and measured and I’ve made no personal attacks on anyone that didn’t attack me first.

The fact that you’ve come here and picked a fight suggests otherwise. Also, one of your first comments here was about how feminism is the only game in town and that’s what the government defers to. So yes, you did imply that feminism is to blame for men’s problems.

I’m also wondering if you’ve gone to MRA sites to pick fights and stand up for women. Since you’re so fair and balanced and everything. Something tells me you haven’t.

The US is a “great” location for MRAs talking about prison rape because the US has so many dang prisoners and such a perverted sense of retribution towards them. Plus, it helps to talk about a “first-world,” nominally equitable country when talking about gendered violence…

I still remember a “Scandanavia and the World” cartoon where some inmates were accidentally left out of their cells in a Nordic country, so they decided to make cake all night. Or the story about prisons needing to close down in some country due to lack of prisoners.

Oh, please, niall, just drop it. For all your grandiose claims about the state of affairs in the Grand Republic of All European Nations Combined* and how egalitarianism, not feminism, is the key because men and women are both oppressed by the sex- and genderless creatures from another dimension (I assume), you’ve brought nothing new to the table. All your points have been refuted a thousand times over. You’re not winning arguments, you’re boring everyone to sleep.

*A claim that, to me at least, seems to a) assume that everyone commenting here is from the US, b) assume total ignorance of everything going on in Europe, and c) be using assumptions a and b to cook up an Assfax(TM) story about Europe and feminism.

For the umpteenthhundredth time: The reason we don’t need a movement fighting for men’s rights is that men aren’t losing rights, only privileges. Women are slowly getting the rights they shouldn’t have been denied in the first place, but have been anyway. By men. Not space aliens, men. Seeing the problem here?

Would you seriously argue that we need a movement fighting for white peoples’ rights? For straight peoples’ rights? For the rights of cis people, able-bodied people, neurotypical people? Some of those already exist in one form or another, and they’re all hate groups, or at least very invested in denying rights from other groups. Like, gee, I don’t know, the MRM?

Seconding the request that you stop the “I’m not an MRA” act. It’s not working. Only an MRA would use those exact talking points and make such utterly ludicrous claims about feminists.

As for your question:

Is there anyone on this site that will acknowledge men face more problems that women in US society – by a long shot.

I doubt it. Because men, as a group, don’t face more problems than women, as a group, well, anyplace with a patriarchal power imbalance. Which is most places, the US included. If you have proof to the contrary, I’d like to see it. Remember, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. So, the claim that men, who hold practically all key positions of power in governments and business, can’t do anything to stop the alleged mass misandering happening around the world requires some pretty damn impressive evidence.

I’d also like to add that you fail at intersectionalism, though that’s a standard problem for MRAs, who seem to think that as long as there is even one woman benefitting from the system more than even one man, it’s proof of institutional misandry.

@ Niall

http://www.neckbeard-news.com/2014/07/mens-rights-activists-defeat-blacks-and.html

Also, “I’m not an mra but I’m going to bring up and agree with every one of their arguments…”

But seriously, if you looked at the sidebar, you would see that the site does care about men’s problems. There’s even a link to Just Detention, an advocacy group that creates awareness about prison rape and actually tries to do something about it. It’s not that we don’t care that men have problems, men are obviously having problems in post-modern society (mostly, I’d say, because men refuse to liberate themselves from traditional gender roles like feminists told them to do in the 1970s). What’s mocked here is that MRA are actually doing anything about it. They’re not. They’re just doing what you’re doing, arguing with random people on the internet screaming “What about the menz?”. P.S. I am a man.

If you want that optic changed, get off the internet, step into the real world, and do something about it. The argument that MRA don’t have the resources for real activism is bullshit. Women, American Indians, and other minority groups built their movements from scanty financial resources and so can you…if you direct your efforts away from the victimization olympics and internet “activism.”

Here’s a recent one from the US examining sexual coercion of males by female in high schools. 4 out of 5 reported some form of it. 18% reported a physical form.

http://psycnet.apa.org/?&fa=main.doiLanding&doi=10.1037/a0035915

or the full paper here

http://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/men-a0035915.pdf

Research on women on men sexual abuse is in its infancy, but it is disturbing, and I don’t think can be explained by any patriarchy theory. Do you?

I know that the Hobby Lobby ruling really made me feel like I’m living in a liberal feminist gynocracy instead of a country in which five men can decide birth control isn’t a necessary part of health care and employers can involve themselves in their employees uteri.

4 out of 5 reported some form of it.

4 out of… 10? Do you mean 4 out of 10? Because your own source says 4 out of 10.

*blinks*

So this is what happens when I write things in the middle of the night, it the lulls between calls and running to check on the adorable old geezer dog I’m dogsitting for.

Haven’t caught up in detail, yet, and I kind of want to take a nap promptly. For some reason, 2-8 am was busy this morning, and I’m a bit bushed.

So, yeah…

@StrivingAlly: Feel free to quote! Although, if you’d be kind enough to fix some of the glaring typos… The periods and commas are all sorts of backwards. I’m cringing, just thinking about it.

@Niall: While it’s kind of you to claim my response was reasoned and respectful, I feel a little bit like you missed my point, completely. Feminism hasn’t finished it’s work, and we still have a ways to go. In some regions, it’s mostly socially, in other regions, the focus is more on legislative action. Feminism isn’t done, though, by any means.

I feel for certain men’s issues, but I don’t think you’re pointing towards the right culprits. You also seem to be drawing a few false equivalencies. While you haven’t blamed feminism outright, you seem to heavily imply that feminism is the cause or is outright hostile, while discounting things that feminism does do to help men’s issues as a byproduct.

I don’t have time to go into detail, and I’m not sure I’ve had enough sleep to speak coherently, but I’d highly suggest actually paying attention to what some of the folks here are saying, regardless of tone.

Sometimes, really, really important things are not said politely. It doesn’t mean they aren’t really, really important.

@Everyone Else: Thanks for the kind words! I’ll catch up in a bit, but sleep is important. Need to do that now.

Have fun with the meltdown, should it occur before I wake.

(my ‘dar is pinging, just a tad, back here on this far page of comments… )

You’re making the mistake of thinking I’m blaming feminism for all men’s woes.

And you’re making the mistake of thinking everyone’s talking about you. I know you’d like it to be true, but sadly, it’s not.

I once took an undergrad course that mentioned feminism, therefore I’m an expert on it.